365 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bill Casey wrote...

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL LIKE THIS

LOL, I don't care what you want to feel like. You're always looking for a fight over other people's morals.

[KaiserShep]

HYR, you monster. How do you sleep at night?

[Steelcan]

@Iakus, you and I had two different Destroy endings. One with the geth and one without.

[Redbelle]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

It could be, not necessarily though. Not wanting Legion to take the risk of uploading Reaper code is fairly rational. The choice starts to appear racist whenever you metagame the fact that there are alternatives. That's why I hate having ideal choices; they intentionally make the other choices look like failed scenarios based on player effort (or the lack of).

I don't care if I'm in the minority for saying this but one thing that I actually liked about the endings is that the choices weren't based on metagaming efforts. I truly do believe that if the consequence to Destroy didn't seem as contrived, and if the choices weren't necessarily presented by the Catalyst that a lot less people would complain about the endings. I don't think the solution is to remove choices and add ideal scenarios.

Well yeah, I was being facetious (sp?).

Calling every unfortunate event in the story "raaaaay-cist" is just a meme of mine. I do it often while playing.

I got the idea from this place. BSN hyperbole -- It's clllllassic!

I tend to shout  "Damn you Salarzar! DAAAAMNNNN YOOOOOOUUUUUU"!!! With the manditory fist shaking.

[ruiptaurus]

 An example of the best movies out there where the protagonist dies:

- Braveheart

- Gladiator

- Mass Effect 3 (lol)


Ps- Cryed like a baby when Mordin died ( me as Renegade, when i killed him )


Sometimes we must let go, i know the endings for some of you guys suck, but that´s the way it was meant by the writers, and besides if the game was ****, nobody was still talking abou ME3 endings. Embrace the Ending.

( Assuming Direct Control  )

[Erez Kristal]

ruiptaurus wrote...

 An example of the best movies out there where the protagonist dies:

- Braveheart

- Gladiator

- Mass Effect 3 (lol)


Ps- Cryed like a baby when Mordin died ( me as Renegade, when i killed him )


Sometimes we must let go, i know the endings for some of you guys suck, but that´s the way it was meant by the writers, and besides if the game was ****, nobody was still talking abou ME3 endings. Embrace the Ending.

( Assuming Direct Control  )

The game was **** its mass effect 1+2 were the games who set the ground.
I am aware it is possibile to make a sad and good ending.

But in focusing on that you ignore the important points of this thread.
its not just about shep dying or not dying. its about what led to the moment of his death,
Was it our doing? or was it shep acting stupid while bioware assumed control.

this is important, because its feels like cutscene defeat cheating.

[ioannisdenton]

iakus wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

I don't understand. Shepard's goal was to defeat the Reapers. That happens. Just because Shepard dies in most of the endings, they are bad?

In part.  But there's more

It's how Shepard defeats the Reapers as well.

He defeats them with a WEAPON called crucible.
The crucible was believed to destroy the reapers. it did if you wished.
Defeat is not just an explosion where the good awesome guy runs away from and jumps in the appropriate time you know.
I really prefer the ending i have now than the one i described, however i am sure than many people would be extremely happy  if this was the ending.

[Redbelle]

Ah, the old. I want to see the ending in cutscene's argument.

Vs.

I want to blow stuff up stuff and make the bad guy cry.

Shepards final boss was Marauder shields, everything after that was interactive cutscene territory.

And people are happy with that?

It seems that the notion of what a video game is and can deliver has taken a nose dive that certain people want to experience less control over their protaganist, and sit back for a more uninteractive finale.

Don't get me wrong. The interactive cutscene dialogue choices are great. When you meet a character who doesn't fob you off with a 'hey' auto dialogue moment that doesn't go into dialogue wheel mode.

But to base the majority of the final moments of the game on cod philosophy of a character we neither knew about, know anything of and is in charge of killing all advanced races in the galaxy...... over and over again. Forever?

And we don't get to shoot it? Cause if there was one being that deserved a bullet, the Catalyst would rank up there.

The option's given, well, fine, they are options. Here's another one.

Format the little idiot, tell it to power down the Reapers Mass Effect fields and let the armada rip them to pieces. It's perfect. Simple. All my allies I brought with me get to live. And no one has to synthesise anything. But it's not an option. And even the option that destroys the Reapers kills those I have spent time and effort saving. And those that don't cross moral and ethical boundaries that deserve more thought than the ten minutes we had to grapple with the influx of possibilities and consequences.

I don't know who in BW thought the ending's as they stand was a good idea. But a simple rule of fun. If you have brought a shed load of fans along for three titles, at the very end, along with every other ending there, add a win win condition that has strict requirements to acheive. And then let the fans dictate which ending is the favourite.

Because the problem with the endings as they stand in both past, present and future. Enough fans felt there was not one they could hang their hat on and call the ME trilogy.......... Done.

It's therefore little wonder that another ME game is in the works. ME3 had 'A' resolution. But enough fans feel that the resolution was not a resolution they could accept, which means that some fans are freewheeling, in that they feel unresolved about the ending to the Star War's of our generation's story.

To which, maybe ME4 will give them the closure they need.

Modifié par Redbelle, 07 juillet 2013 - 09:33 .

[Reorte]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It could be, not necessarily though. Not wanting Legion to take the risk of uploading Reaper code is fairly rational. The choice starts to appear racist whenever you metagame the fact that there are alternatives. That's why I hate having ideal choices; they intentionally make the other choices look like failed scenarios based on player effort (or the lack of).

And what's wrong with that? There's a lot more pressure on the choice if you can screw up by making the wrong one, and a lot more impact on the player when he sees the result of it. That's good. By avoiding that because of metagaming you're removing one of the biggest tools an RPG can have as a unique storytelling medium. Personally I judge how well these things work on my first playthrough, when they reall can have an impact. Also, it sounds too much like you're suggesting everything must be bad because you don't like one result being good. Or everything good I suppose, but in any case whilst they might give equal but different results (and there should be some choices like that) they would become largely pointless.

Without that you've got a game that really isn't terribly interesting, if all you can do is win in different ways, whereas what I want is a game where you can achieve anything from miserable failure to great victory. Makes it more engaging, more exciting, more emotional.

I don't care if I'm in the minority for saying this but one thing that I actually liked about the endings is that the choices weren't based on metagaming efforts. I truly do believe that if the consequence to Destroy didn't seem as contrived, and if the choices weren't necessarily presented by the Catalyst that a lot less people would complain about the endings. I don't think the solution is to remove choices and add ideal scenarios.

I agree that I wouldn't have had as many problems with the way it went if the negatives weren't contrived. However, your first point sounds like you're keen on hitting the game just to avoid metagaming issues, which IMO is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

SilJeff wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Weak.

Not as weak as your trolling attempt, seriously it's like your not even trying anymore.

how is he trolling? He's just asserting his opinion

To these people, stating facts = trolling. It's quite silly.

[Erez Kristal]

Please people do not feed the troll 'brovikk rasputin'

[Bill Casey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL LIKE THIS

LOL, I don't care what you want to feel like. You're always looking for a fight over other people's morals.

When your "morals" entail messing with my DNA, you're damn right I'm going to speak up...
I'm not your science experiment...

Your "morals" are infringing on my basic rights, fundamental freedoms and human dignity...
As such, I'm going to take every opportunity to inform you of how horrible they are...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 juillet 2013 - 02:00 .

[o Ventus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard never had any control over Cerberus. In fact, it's revealed that TIM manipulated Shepard into believing that Cerberus is more moderate than it actually is.

No he hasn't. The only manipulation done to Shepard from TIM is that the dossiers in ME2 were chosen so Shepard would sympathize with those people. He played his presentation of Cerberus straight.

@OP: ME3 had to have a good ending for the same reasons as every other piece of media. Because nobody lkes sh*tty endings.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 juillet 2013 - 01:49 .

[Bleachrude]

o Ventus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard never had any control over Cerberus. In fact, it's revealed that TIM manipulated Shepard into believing that Cerberus is more moderate than it actually is.

No he hasn't. The only manipulation done to Shepard from TIM is that the dossiers in ME2 were chosen so Shepard would sympathize with those people. He played his presentation of Cerberus straight.

I think Megasovereign is referring to the CREW and not the squadmates you pick up.

The crew were specifically picked to be the "best front" possible for Shepard. Even in ME2, you find this out since when you interact with the engineers, you find out they left the alliance because of how shepard was treated.

Similarly, the same applies to both Chakwas, Joker and Jacob. They join Cerberus because they see it as the one orgnaization attempting to at least do something...

In fact, now that I think about it...other than Miranda, do we hear ANY of the crew talk about how they joined cerberus because they believed in human destiny/dominance? And even Miranda doesn't espouse any racist views and seemed to join cerberus BECAUSE it was to protect someone...

The other aspect of cerberus by the crew never gets mentioned by anyone....yet t is the same cerberus that was responsible for Kahoku, Pragia and Overlord. Yet because we interact with nice people like the engineers or at the least funny but not evil people like Kelly Chambers, Shepard is put at ease...

I mean, can we even imagine Kelly Chambers, the dancer, as part of the Pragia project?

[Erez Kristal]

In order to provide better protection for humanity, humanity must become stronger.
Alliances are important, but the past has thought as that in time of crisis your allies wouldnt be so quick to jump to your aid, and in some cases sacrifice you entirely if it suits their intrests.
just ask czechoslovakia.

Cerberus knows this more than everyone and the people who worked for them knew this aswell.
This is the reason people were working for cerbrus and willing to partake in those experiments.

Knowledge gained in pragia helped establish human biotics, overlord could have prevented a devastating war against the geth and save human lives. you easily forget that the geth were murdering millions of humans around the galaxy up to the end of me2.

Kahoku got to close... an unfortunate casualty. this is a standard procedure carried on by all secret services. you ussually hear about it as a car accident, heart attack, fell of the horse.

Everyone who works with cerberus knows this. everyone who worked with the shadow broker know about his practices. this doesnt prevent anderson from recommending you to work with him.

Its the lesser evil in a very dangerous world.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL LIKE THIS

LOL, I don't care what you want to feel like. You're always looking for a fight over other people's morals.

When your "morals" entail messing with my DNA, you're damn right I'm going to speak up...
I'm not your science experiment...

Your "morals" are infringing on my basic rights, fundamental freedoms and human dignity...
As such, I'm going to take every opportunity to inform you of how horrible they are...

How does someone picking synthesis or control infringe on your basic rights and your DNA? Are you a person living in the MEverse?

[katamuro]

the really big thing in ME universe was hope, hope that through all the bad stuff if you try hard enough you will come up on top. Hope that with enough friends and allies it gets you through and at the end of the road there will be light. What ME3 ending did was shatter that hope totally disregarding the feelings you get playing through the games. In ME1, who did not feel elation and someting like "Killed ya big stupid space reaper". In ME2 didnt we feel cool surviving the mission which was dubbed "suicide"? Again even after the meeting with the Harbinger there was the whole "still stopped you".

And through the ME3, continuously you keep thwarting the plans of the enemy be it reapers or cerberus. So the end does not match the rest of it. Really whatever you do in the end shepard surrenders to the catalysts logic and reasons and does choose something that catalyst presented. Thats it.

[Clayless]

katamuro wrote...

the really big thing in ME universe was hope, hope that through all the bad stuff if you try hard enough you will come up on top. Hope that with enough friends and allies it gets you through and at the end of the road there will be light. What ME3 ending did was shatter that hope totally disregarding the feelings you get playing through the games. In ME1, who did not feel elation and someting like "Killed ya big stupid space reaper". In ME2 didnt we feel cool surviving the mission which was dubbed "suicide"? Again even after the meeting with the Harbinger there was the whole "still stopped you".

And through the ME3, continuously you keep thwarting the plans of the enemy be it reapers or cerberus. So the end does not match the rest of it. Really whatever you do in the end shepard surrenders to the catalysts logic and reasons and does choose something that catalyst presented. Thats it.

Where was the hope when you commited genocide on the Rachni? When you shot Wrex for trying to save his people? When you shot Mordin in the back? When you shot Legion in the face?

Hope wasn't the thing of the ME universe. If it was, it wouldn't be so easy to get through the series keeping the status quo.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

But really, though, nothing. Ole moat-monster is just here to feed.

It's gotta get that daily hatred/moral-superiority fix, y'know.

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL LIKE THIS

A Bill Casey post that doesn't end in an ellipsis....

Or does that only happen when he isn't shouting?

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 juillet 2013 - 03:55 .

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...
Ah, the old. I want to see the ending in cutscene's argument.

Vs.

I want to blow stuff up stuff and make the bad guy cry.

Shepards final boss was Marauder shields, everything after that was interactive cutscene territory.

And people are happy with that?

Happy with no final boss? Hell, yeah. I'd mod out the Saren-hopper and the human-Reaper fights if I had the patience to learn how.

And we don't get to shoot it? Cause if there was one being that deserved a bullet, the Catalyst would rank up there.

We get to use something on him that actually harms him. Why care what it is?

To which, maybe ME4 will give them the closure they need.

Unlikely with no Shepard, and ME3 handling the Reaoers' defeat.

[katamuro]

LineHolder wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

katamuro wrote...

the really big thing in ME universe was hope, hope that through all the bad stuff if you try hard enough you will come up on top. Hope that with enough friends and allies it gets you through and at the end of the road there will be light. What ME3 ending did was shatter that hope totally disregarding the feelings you get playing through the games. In ME1, who did not feel elation and someting like "Killed ya big stupid space reaper". In ME2 didnt we feel cool surviving the mission which was dubbed "suicide"? Again even after the meeting with the Harbinger there was the whole "still stopped you".

And through the ME3, continuously you keep thwarting the plans of the enemy be it reapers or cerberus. So the end does not match the rest of it. Really whatever you do in the end shepard surrenders to the catalysts logic and reasons and does choose something that catalyst presented. Thats it.

Where was the hope when you commited genocide on the Rachni? When you shot Wrex for trying to save his people? When you shot Mordin in the back? When you shot Legion in the face?

Hope wasn't the thing of the ME universe. If it was, it wouldn't be so easy to get through the series keeping the status quo.

You choose to do that, or you don't.

Exactly there was a choice. And it is generally how you go around doing the things. If you are renegade then your policy is "winning over anything else". It is a choice but it is still "overcoming all kinds of adversity" with what you have and doing what "you" think is best. Consider this if you could shoot your teammaters than would you just accept something that your enemy has told you?

[Bill Casey]

pirate1802 wrote...

How does someone picking synthesis or control infringe on your basic rights and your DNA? Are you a person living in the MEverse?

These people aren't picking it for the lulz...
They are arguing as though these acts are a virtue, which is a dangerous ideology...

Autocracy for example is responsible for more human suffering than any other ideology in history...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 juillet 2013 - 05:16 .

[Clayless]

LineHolder wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Where was the hope when you commited genocide on the Rachni? When you shot Wrex for trying to save his people? When you shot Mordin in the back? When you shot Legion in the face?

Hope wasn't the thing of the ME universe. If it was, it wouldn't be so easy to get through the series keeping the status quo.

You choose to do that, or you don't.

Which shows that hope isn't the theme of Mass Effect, seeing as though you can get through the series destroying it.