136 réponses à ce sujet

[Patchwork]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
"Fixed meal times and restricted activities sounds exactly like a prison to me"

How am I wrong? That is precisely what prison life typically involves. 

The fact that other institutions might employ a similar structure is largely irrelevent. As I already said, the distinction between prisons and school/military is obvious. I shouldn't need to say "Oh and also you don't have a choice about whether you stay there or not", that is already clear to anyone who isn't a complete dunce.

funny then by your defintion public schools are prisons as well. with only barly getting past the "forced to go" rule as well. Truncy has become "too costly" to enforced it seems, and the only reason schools want you to go is because they can get more money from the government.

School doesn't work as a comparison! Disregarding school holidays and such once you reach 16-18 years old that's it school is over and no-one can force you into education ever again. 

An aprrentice is either harrowed, killed or made tranquil and for the rest of their lives they have templars and the Chantry looking over their shoulder just waiting for an excuse. 

It might be a very nice prison for some mages but it's still a prison. 

Modifié par Ser Bard, 08 juillet 2013 - 03:32 .

[dragonflight288]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
"Fixed meal times and restricted activities sounds exactly like a prison to me"

How am I wrong? That is precisely what prison life typically involves. 

The fact that other institutions might employ a similar structure is largely irrelevent. As I already said, the distinction between prisons and school/military is obvious. I shouldn't need to say "Oh and also you don't have a choice about whether you stay there or not", that is already clear to anyone who isn't a complete dunce.

funny then by your defintion public schools are prisons as well. with only barly getting past the "forced to go" rule as well. Truncy has become "too costly" to enforced it seems, and the only reason schools want you to go is because they can get more money from the government.

Children aren't forced to live there, nor are they forcibly separated from their parents as the dominant religion's property, nor are they under constant threat of genocide if a few people in their home decide to go completely nuts, in which case the Rite of Annulment decrees that the innocent will be slaughtered alongside the guilty simply because they're there. Nor are they stripped of all emotions as part of a punishment OR because they are considered too weak to pass a final test, and if they fail that test then they are killed. And even if they pass it, they still aren't allowed to leave except on special assignment.

[frostajulie]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

duckley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Not, they do not use their magic to do anything for non-magical society. The Chantry forbids it.

I didnt realize it was forbidden by the Chantry. If so, that explains it - although I often wonder why the highlighted words belwo never seemed to gain steam. Perhaps this will be a theme for DA:I?

There is no rule forbidding the use of magic for healing, the problem is accessibility. Plaintiff is one to overstate things fairly often.

It's not an overstatement in the least. The mages are forbidden from accessing and interacting with the outside world generally, that includes using magic on it for any reason.

*Prison* is very big overstatement. mages have more luxury in towers than 97% civilians in thedas.
You wake up in 8:00 am.. you eat... than you learn a bit.. than eat again for.. than learn a bit..  than spend your time with another mages... than eat again for free and go to sleep. everything FREE and guaranteed.
doesnt seem like very cruel life to me.

And in exchange for this luxury the templars watch you bathe, privacy is pretty nonexistent if you do manage to sneak around and get pregnant your baby is taken from you.  A normal life, with a spouse and children is not allowed in the circle tower.  Mages are often treated as subhuman, they are bullied and sometimes raped.  But yeah you go on and dream about that "privelaged life" as Zevran said "a gilded cage maybe, but still a cage."  You can have that life but some things are more important and neccesary to happiness. It is a very cruel existence.

[Nightdragon8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
"Fixed meal times and restricted activities sounds exactly like a prison to me"

How am I wrong? That is precisely what prison life typically involves. 

The fact that other institutions might employ a similar structure is largely irrelevent. As I already said, the distinction between prisons and school/military is obvious. I shouldn't need to say "Oh and also you don't have a choice about whether you stay there or not", that is already clear to anyone who isn't a complete dunce.

funny then by your defintion public schools are prisons as well. with only barly getting past the "forced to go" rule as well. Truncy has become "too costly" to enforced it seems, and the only reason schools want you to go is because they can get more money from the government.

Children aren't forced to live there, nor are they forcibly separated from their parents as the dominant religion's property, nor are they under constant threat of genocide if a few people in their home decide to go completely nuts, in which case the Rite of Annulment decrees that the innocent will be slaughtered alongside the guilty simply because they're there. Nor are they stripped of all emotions as part of a punishment OR because they are considered too weak to pass a final test, and if they fail that test then they are killed. And even if they pass it, they still aren't allowed to leave except on special assignment.

in some places they are, ever hear of Boarding schools??

look, honestly this has turned into another are mages aren't free debate, far from the whole "role of mages" question that was asked in the first page. Yes yes, mages are not free to do what they want, for others and Ithink more than anthing for they own protection.... I've stated it before in other threads that in reality, what would happen is "The mage made me do it, he is a blood mage, HANG HIM!!!" type of thing, sort of like the wtich trials but for mages and for the fact htat they can use real magic. I mean come on, look how far people went on to convict people on witchcraft claims, when we know for a fact that they wheren't wtichs.

and in this case yes they can use magic. so sadly, like with how motorists are ALWAYS AT FAULT when it comes to pedestrian acedents, mages will always be to blame for a guy cheating on his wife, for a cow dieing for any bad thing that happens to anyone.

[Bleachrude]

Mikoto8472 wrote...

So, I've been playing DAO and DA2 and watching the plight of the mages. And I've been wondering...

The mages that were called to Ostagar to serve in the army.

The mage that used his magic and the ashes of Andraste to heal Eamon.

The personal mages of Loghain and Howe.

And of course all the times in history when mages have been taken out of the Circle and fought in wars. Notably against the Qunari with whom without them the Qunari would have won....

Were they paid to do any of this? Or compensated for their services in any way? If they weren't paid then between being imprisoned in the tower, leashed by phylacteries, unable to go anywhere without Templar guards, being unable to marry unless in exceptional circumstances, having their babies stolen from them at birth........ the Circle mages are slaves of the Chantry.

Slaves.

*LOL*

And this is where pro-mages don't seem to ealize how good mages have it.

Going by DA:O, the mages weren't forced to be at ostagar in fact I get the impression that the chantry rather they NOT be there.

Even against the quanari, the impression I get is that the mages weren't forced to fight.

Contrast this with the fact that in DA:O, Loghain was press-ganging regularl Ferelden citizens...which is par for the course for nobles in medieval society.

And you're using HOWE who had a mage imprison the queen of ferelden as something the chantry would've approved of?

Would mages be paid for their service in a war? Unless they were MERCENARIES, they shouldn't expect to get paid since nobody else would be paid either....the RPG trope of scavenging everything after a battle is actually based on how it worked in the pre-modern/non mercenary army.

What ever you could pillage and loot was your pay.

Again....why are you comparing THEDASIAN mages with modern day citizens of 1st world nations and not the average non-nonle Thedosian or even real life medieval person.....

[Patchwork]

Nightdragon8 wrote...


in some places they are, ever hear of Boarding schools??

look, honestly this has turned into another are mages aren't free debate, far from the whole "role of mages" question that was asked in the first page. Yes yes, mages are not free to do what they want, for others and Ithink more than anthing for they own protection.... I've stated it before in other threads that in reality, what would happen is "The mage made me do it, he is a blood mage, HANG HIM!!!" type of thing, sort of like the wtich trials but for mages and for the fact htat they can use real magic. I mean come on, look how far people went on to convict people on witchcraft claims, when we know for a fact that they wheren't wtichs.

and in this case yes they can use magic. so sadly, like with how motorists are ALWAYS AT FAULT when it comes to pedestrian acedents, mages will always be to blame for a guy cheating on his wife, for a cow dieing for any bad thing that happens to anyone.

So mages should be locked up all their lives because people are jerks?

[Plaintiff]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
"Fixed meal times and restricted activities sounds exactly like a prison to me"

How am I wrong? That is precisely what prison life typically involves. 

The fact that other institutions might employ a similar structure is largely irrelevent. As I already said, the distinction between prisons and school/military is obvious. I shouldn't need to say "Oh and also you don't have a choice about whether you stay there or not", that is already clear to anyone who isn't a complete dunce.

funny then by your defintion public schools are prisons as well. with only barly getting past the "forced to go" rule as well. Truncy has become "too costly" to enforced it seems, and the only reason schools want you to go is because they can get more money from the government.

No, actually, what I meant was that families have a choice in how and where their children get educated, and if the child is being badly treated at one school, the parents can have their children transferred, or they can opt for home schooling.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, most people of Thedas don't seem to have direct interaction with mages.

However, they do seem to serve as healers at the demand of the nation's leaders. I don't recall anyone finding it odd that the Tevinter Mages were setting up shop in the Alienage during the plague.

Mages are allowed to choose whether or not they want to serve in the military (or, rather, the Circle does).

[duckley]

I would still be interested in knowing what specific Chantry Laws prohibit Mages from helping the citzenry and contributing to society. Presumably Mages could do so with Templar oversight if need be. Just seems like a waste to me.

Modifié par duckley, 08 juillet 2013 - 05:02 .

[Bleachrude]

duckley wrote...

I would still be interested in knowing what specific Chantry Laws prohibit Mages from helping the citzenry and contributing to society. Presumably Mages could do so with Templar oversight if need be. Just seems like a waste to me.

Witchhunt and Awakening shows that you don't even NEED templar oversight.

There's of course that botantist mage  in awakening and Finn seemed tyo have only had to ask the First Enchanter (and not even Gregoir) and IIRC, Isolder mentions that after Eamon was poisoned she had other mages look at Eamon....

Wynne in both the ending for DA:O and Awakening will be journeying without templar supervision....and you also meet a senior enchanter with his apprentices without any templars around

So, at least in Ferelden,  senior enchanters seem able to come and ho as the please and even newly Harrowed mahes can leave the circle for reasons ....

[TheKomandorShepard]

Bleachrude wrote...

Mikoto8472 wrote...

So, I've been playing DAO and DA2 and watching the plight of the mages. And I've been wondering...

The mages that were called to Ostagar to serve in the army.

The mage that used his magic and the ashes of Andraste to heal Eamon.

The personal mages of Loghain and Howe.

And of course all the times in history when mages have been taken out of the Circle and fought in wars. Notably against the Qunari with whom without them the Qunari would have won....

Were they paid to do any of this? Or compensated for their services in any way? If they weren't paid then between being imprisoned in the tower, leashed by phylacteries, unable to go anywhere without Templar guards, being unable to marry unless in exceptional circumstances, having their babies stolen from them at birth........ the Circle mages are slaves of the Chantry.

Slaves.

*LOL*

And this is where pro-mages don't seem to ealize how good mages have it.

Going by DA:O, the mages weren't forced to be at ostagar in fact I get the impression that the chantry rather they NOT be there.

Even against the quanari, the impression I get is that the mages weren't forced to fight.

Contrast this with the fact that in DA:O, Loghain was press-ganging regularl Ferelden citizens...which is par for the course for nobles in medieval society.

And you're using HOWE who had a mage imprison the queen of ferelden as something the chantry would've approved of?

Would mages be paid for their service in a war? Unless they were MERCENARIES, they shouldn't expect to get paid since nobody else would be paid either....the RPG trope of scavenging everything after a battle is actually based on how it worked in the pre-modern/non mercenary army.

What ever you could pillage and loot was your pay.

Again....why are you comparing THEDASIAN mages with modern day citizens of 1st world nations and not the average non-nonle Thedosian or even real life medieval person.....

Soldiers get paid , even in awakening it is stated , mages not so helping for free because there is no other option because chantry don't allow mages have own wealth unless you escape their influence like hero of ferelden or Hawke (if mages) . And how mages are treated like trashes so if it you that same for dalish...

Bleachrude Wynne is war hero like warden and hawke so she is beyond the control of chantry , Finn is
recruited by hero of ferelden and now warden-commander who saved country twice...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 juillet 2013 - 06:00 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

Prisoners.

They are prisoners in "everyday life".

This is by far the most important aspect of being a circle mage.

For apostates, it is "fugitive".

Not a great way to live.

[Boycott Bioware]

I can say real life prison maybe better than the Circle. The convicts/prisoners just eat, sleep, doing prison activities, their rights protected, they are protected, they just don't have the liberty to go outside, when their time up they are free to enter society...the one who going into prison are criminals

Of course prison is not a nice place, there are corruptions, rape and so on...i just want to state the function of real life prison vs the Circle

In the Circle, the Mages are forever watched, may be killed anytime, being used when needed, bring Chantry their wealth without pay, become living zombies, forever being in the Circle to death...and i wonder where they depose the dead Mage body...into the lake maybe...the one who forced into the Circle are kids, civilians, non-criminal....

Modifié par Qistina, 08 juillet 2013 - 06:07 .

[Nightdragon8]

Ser Bard wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...


in some places they are, ever hear of Boarding schools??

look, honestly this has turned into another are mages aren't free debate, far from the whole "role of mages" question that was asked in the first page. Yes yes, mages are not free to do what they want, for others and Ithink more than anthing for they own protection.... I've stated it before in other threads that in reality, what would happen is "The mage made me do it, he is a blood mage, HANG HIM!!!" type of thing, sort of like the wtich trials but for mages and for the fact htat they can use real magic. I mean come on, look how far people went on to convict people on witchcraft claims, when we know for a fact that they wheren't wtichs.

and in this case yes they can use magic. so sadly, like with how motorists are ALWAYS AT FAULT when it comes to pedestrian acedents, mages will always be to blame for a guy cheating on his wife, for a cow dieing for any bad thing that happens to anyone.

So mages should be locked up all their lives because people are jerks?

jerks? so you call people who use people who are different "jerks" ... well those "jerks" get people killed, mages or not. and if anything would force the mages to move out, and pretty much live in htere own village. then after awhile, the goverenment will come in and start making demands, consciption for the price of using there land, then other lands will do the same thing invite mages to settle in just to conscipt them, oh yea if you don't join, it will be considered treason and an act of war, and everyone is the village will be whiped out....

I can already see the end of htat road, it will lead to war, and end up going right back tot he circle system, all because some Arl of whatever used mages to do a power grab of the throne and all the lands...

[Lotion Soronarr]

duckley wrote...
Just a simple question... I may be missing something in Dragon Age Lore, but what role do Mages play in every day life?

Doormat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

frostajulie wrote...
And in exchange for this luxury the templars watch you bathe, privacy is pretty nonexistent if you do manage to sneak around and get pregnant your baby is taken from you.  A normal life, with a spouse and children is not allowed in the circle tower.  Mages are often treated as subhuman, they are bullied and sometimes raped.  But yeah you go on and dream about that "privelaged life" as Zevran said "a gilded cage maybe, but still a cage."  You can have that life but some things are more important and neccesary to happiness. It is a very cruel existence.

LOL. No.

Even in Kirkwall, which was the worst Circle of all, the mages had privacy. The templars could even do a search of their rooms (in light of blood mage activity) without an uproar.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
No, actually, what I meant was that families have a choice in how and where their children get educated, and if the child is being badly treated at one school, the parents can have their children transferred, or they can opt for home schooling.

TODAY. Keyword.

But look at our own history. Not hte present.-

People keep comparing our modern world, with all it's infrastructure, communications, technological advancemetns and current social and cultural norms - and completley forgetting that all of this has been built over centuries. Every change requires certain conditions to be present. Things cannot be jsut directly transplanted from one society from one time period, into another. That is sheer folly.

In the past families DIDN'T have a choice. Heck, education itself was a priveledge. They could barely affored to move to antoher town, and a dozen different education facilities for them to choose at their leasure didnt' exist.
Heck, even today you're limited by your finances and distance when thinking of which school you're gonna send your child to.

[Boycott Bioware]

In DA, the Warden can read, no matter of what background, the Warden can red letters to Jogby, notes, books, Chanter board quests, Blackstone Irregular quests and all quests from quest givers. Meaning The Warden get good education.

Remember the poster about grey Warden trap? "griffon will rise again!", the Warden understand the poster and even recite the password, no matter what race and background

So, i say education is not a privilege in DA world, everybody can read.

Wonders of Thedas have many books in it and it is open to everyone. Even in Bevin house in Redclif have book cases and books, the Chantry too....overall, everybody can read

Edit : Ser Donald come to Lothering Chantry and studying about the Urn, he's a soldier, he can read. In Orzamar, there is a big library, Shaperate. In Redcliff even the small building at the mill have book case and books. The one who cannot read their own language is the Dalish, but they can read human language

Modifié par Qistina, 08 juillet 2013 - 10:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Quistia...the PLAYER can read... all those codexes and books exist for the PLAYER.

Also, Ser Donald is a knight.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Quistia...the PLAYER can read... all those codexes and books exist for the PLAYER.

Also, Ser Donald is a knight.

Yeah especially for someone who ignore that what is written in book and what is shown in game templars don't hate mages i gave you examples but hah just my imagination and fanfiction which is in two games and book.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I dont' ignore anything. You over-inflate and generalize.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I dont' ignore anything. You over-inflate and generalize.

Yep i m templar don't hate mages not that they call them robes (i gave you examples), not that they fear them (i gave you examples where most of them do) , not that they rape and torture them (i gave you many examples) , not that they like killing mages (i gave you many examples) but just i generalize not that my all examples that most of them hate mages are true...


I m watching you for some times and i have to say that you rly have hate issues toward mages first you you justify that templars kill them law then you automatically assumed that veil in trailer is torn by power hunger mages and in this thread you call them

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

duckley wrote...
Just a simple question... I may be missing something in Dragon Age Lore, but what role do Mages play in every day life?

Doormat.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LOL.

Seriously?

I can give you counter-examples to everything and you are (again) assuming too much.
Especially about me.
Alos, you should work on your reading comprehension because that last bit is pure gold.

"Mage hate issues". Comedy gold.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LOL.

Seriously?

I can give you counter-examples to everything and you are (again) assuming too much.
Especially about me.
Alos, you should work on your reading comprehension because that last bit is pure gold.

"Mage hate issues". Comedy gold.

i gave you own qoutes sad but true it's not my quotes when you call mages doormat or better:) from other thread

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'd think that mages will be perfectly capable of mending the veil while in (templar) chains too.

Go templars!

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:30 .

[Nightdragon8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I dont' ignore anything. You over-inflate and generalize.

Yep i m templar don't hate mages not that they call them robes (i gave you examples), not that they fear them (i gave you examples where most of them do) , not that they rape and torture them (i gave you many examples) , not that they like killing mages (i gave you many examples) but just i generalize not that my all examples that most of them hate mages are true...


I m watching you for some times and i have to say that you rly have hate issues toward mages first you you justify that templars kill them law then you automatically assumed that veil in trailer is torn by power hunger mages and in this thread you call them

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

duckley wrote...
Just a simple question... I may be missing something in Dragon Age Lore, but what role do Mages play in every day life?

Doormat.

so... you say he hates them just because he answerd teh question with the word doormat... umm tell me how he is wrong... yes we know that the templars don't 100% hate them, you can say that about everything not even 100% of mages hate the circle. but in general, Mages are treated as unneeded or unwanted. Only during time of war are they "needed" but the templars don't want to use them. Its pretty sad really I mean look how the templars treated the mages during Ostrgar... i mean holy crap....