142 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

Some people here say that hovering full lines do not serve as a possible compromise since the voiced line will be spoken after selecting it -but, on the other hand, we all know this is a simple lie since the voiced line could be ignored by clicking the action button (left mouse, space, esc, etc, etc).

So, why keeping this feature and not offering an alternative? I'm specially curious about this topic since anyone has delivered a real answer to this.

Thanks!

[Magdalena11]

Not quite sure what the question is.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Mayhaps a reconstruction of the OP is in order.

[PinkDiamondstl]

The wheel is here to stay....NEXT!

[ScarMK]

I believe that what the OP is getting at, is that people dislike the idea of hovering over the paraphrase to be able to read the whole line and people shot it down since they didn't like the idea of reading it then hearing the PC speak it. She is pointing out that such a situation could be avoided by simply skipping the dialogue when the PC speaks. I dunno, just my guess.

[In Exile]

That doesn't sound like very much of a solution. What peole want is to enjoy hearing the dialogue for the first time. 

Modifié par In Exile, 08 juillet 2013 - 02:11 .

[TsaiMeLemoni]

ScarMK wrote...

I believe that what the OP is getting at, is that people dislike the idea of hovering over the paraphrase to be able to read the whole line and people shot it down since they didn't like the idea of reading it then hearing the PC speak it. She is pointing out that such a situation could be avoided by simply skipping the dialogue when the PC speaks. I dunno, just my guess.

So basically a Silent PC?

[DialupToaster]

not so much the "bad decision" as the decision you don't like. I on the other hand like it.
But in the end, does it really matter?

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! (engage quest)
If I have to (engage quest)
For a price.... (engage quest, get payed)
What are you offering? (engage quest, get payed)
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? (engage sociopathic elf mode)
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! (engage quest)
I'll do it... for a price (Engage quest, get payed)
Die now! (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Break down of actual player choice
quest
quest with pay
murder

[Jonata]

randomchasegurney wrote...

not so much the "bad decision" as the decision you don't like. I on the other hand like it.
But in the end, does it really matter?

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! (engage quest)
If I have to (engage quest)
For a price.... (engage quest, get payed)
What are you offering? (engage quest, get payed)
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? (engage sociopathic elf mode)
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! (engage quest)
I'll do it... for a price (Engage quest, get payed)
Die now! (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Break down of actual player choice
quest
quest with pay
murder

Actually I think the problem with the Voiced PC is right there. Let's look at the potential RP choices in the hands of the player:

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! > White Knight
If I have to > Reluctant Hero
For a price.... > Mercenary
What are you offering? > Mercenary Hero
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? > Evil Mercenary
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} > Sociopath

5 potentially different characters. Look at the Voiced PC:

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! > Hero
I'll do it... for a price > Pragmatic Hero (basically, Renegade Hero from ME)
Die now! > Sociopath

3 version of the same character that get repeated during the whole game.

...as you can see, while breaking it down to its most basic shows the same player choices, this is an RPG and being able to chose exactly what kind of character do you want to play is a big factor. I'm okay with the wheel but I do recognize that something got lost in translation when we swapped to a Voiced PC (other than the obvious race selection).

Modifié par Jonata, 08 juillet 2013 - 03:40 .

[nightscrawl]

*Sigh* The voiced PC is here to stay. The wheel is here to stay. Paraphrases are here to stay. Accept it and move on.

If you want to make a thread about the construction of paraphrases and about how they can be improved and so on, feel free, because that's the only thing that has any real bearing on how the actual game will be.

And as far as paraphrases go, other than having them more closely match the spoken line, the other change I would like to see are with the short, direct words Yes and No. I feel that if that is the dialog option, then our PC should say that, instead of something like, "I think that's a great idea," for Yes, or "Go jump in a lake," for No. But this is only for those two words specifically.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 04:31 .

[Sanunes]

There were only three options that progressed dialogue in the five option voiceless protagonist. The list of five generally was 3 options to move forward with a nice, moderate, and darker choice followed with the option of getting an investigate option and more information just like the dialogue wheel. The problem with the silent protagonist is several times I read the text in a far different tone then how my party reacted to it, so each option has its drawbacks.

[Nightdragon8]

why not make it an option? I mean in ME3 auto dialoge was optional, why not make it so the paraphrase is optional and what not??

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why is paraphrasing so bad again? I don't and have never seen or experienced any sort of game breaking or experience breaking problems with it in my years of playing their games.

It's not like you don't know what will happen, because back in dragon age 2 they pretty much labeled it with a nice bright picture to make sure you understood what was going to happen and the tone of what you were going to say. And they even made it more obvious in star wars by having a picture label, and writing the effect next to the option weather you were going to murder someone or not.

[Zanallen]

Eh, the wheel allows for more options than anything Bioware has done with the list. I'm not saying Bioware is using the wheel to its full potential, but the potential is still there. For the paraphrase, I would be entirely fine with a mouse over option to reveal the full line, but Gaider doesn't like it. Also, the reason for the paraphrase is because people didn't like the repetition of reading the line and then hearing it spoken by the VA. Now, skipping the spoken line would be fine for some people, but it doesn't exactly work for the people who like to hear the voiced PC.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Oh my damn wheel is killer for character RP insted many options i get 3 options what i have to say so i have only 3 characters i can create The messiah , jester and guy with anger issues in DA 2 i can't even play as serious evil character , and sometimes if a play as good guy i have to take agressive option because diplomatic is supporting actions of that person but agressive option is like super pr*** option .

[MarchoftheVolus]

Jonata wrote...


Actually I think the problem with the Voiced PC is right there. Let's look at the potential RP choices in the hands of the player:

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! > White Knight
If I have to > Reluctant Hero
For a price.... > Mercenary
What are you offering? > Mercenary Hero
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? > Evil Mercenary
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} > Sociopath

5 potentially different characters. Look at the Voiced PC:

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! > Hero
I'll do it... for a price > Pragmatic Hero (basically, Renegade Hero from ME)
Die now! > Sociopath

3 version of the same character that get repeated during the whole game.

...as you can see, while breaking it down to its most basic shows the same player choices, this is an RPG and being able to chose exactly what kind of character do you want to play is a big factor. I'm okay with the wheel but I do recognize that something got lost in translation when we swapped to a Voiced PC (other than the obvious race selection).

This is precisely why the voiced PC/dialogue wheel needs to go. It severly limits the player's ability to roleplay in a roleplaying game. For the life of me I cannot understand why Bioware decided to start this practice when all it does is increase the amount of time and money a project takes while screwing up a key feature.

Modifié par MarchoftheVolus, 08 juillet 2013 - 06:19 .

[Jonata]

I think paraphrasing is good as long as we, the players, are aware of how they works. In ME2, for example, it was actually stated prior to the release, loud and clear: what we read on the wheel are Shepard's thoughts on the matter that will be coherently translated into words. That, mixed with the functional "Investigate / Good & Evil" positions on the Wheel itself made dialogues pretty intuitive.

In ME3, however, things got mixed up once again and some dialogue choices were clunky and required meta-gaming to be fully understood. I felt that while DA2 had those helpful icons both the paraphrases AND the choices themselves could've used some improvement, especially when it came to having choices that were NOT necessarily at opposite ends of the moral spectrum.

Then again, improvement is what sequels are made of so I'm hopeful.

Modifié par Jonata, 08 juillet 2013 - 06:26 .

[Liamv2]

Both do the job quite well i like both options

[AlanC9]

MarchoftheVolus wrote...

This is precisely why the voiced PC/dialogue wheel needs to go. It severly limits the player's ability to roleplay in a roleplaying game. For the life of me I cannot understand why Bioware decided to start this practice when all it does is increase the amount of time and money a project takes while screwing up a key feature.

No doubt the answer is that Bio simply disagrees with you about roleplaying.

[nightscrawl]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

why not make it an option? I mean in ME3 auto dialoge was optional, why not make it so the paraphrase is optional and what not??

Here is a whole thread about it. Bioware dev posts have been parsed out for you.

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why is paraphrasing so bad again? I don't and have never seen or experienced any sort of game breaking or experience breaking problems with it in my years of playing their games.

It's not like you don't know what will happen, because back in dragon age 2 they pretty much labeled it with a nice bright picture to make sure you understood what was going to happen and the tone of what you were going to say. And they even made it more obvious in star wars by having a picture label, and writing the effect next to the option weather you were going to murder someone or not.

Some players were more affected than others, which is something that needs to be remembered when discussing such features. Sure, it may not have been jarring for you, but for others it might.

As for me, in general I didn't find too much of a problem with it. However there were some instances where the paraphrase was so divorced from the spoken line that the end result was either inappropriately comical or horrific. However, they have said they are making an effort to work on how paraphrases are written, which includes the rules they have for constructing them. I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out.

Some players will not be happy AT ALL unless they can pick from a selection of full lines. That is certainly a valid viewpoint for them. It's not going to change anything though.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 08:04 .

[Sumthing]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

I believe that what the OP is getting at, is that people dislike the idea of hovering over the paraphrase to be able to read the whole line and people shot it down since they didn't like the idea of reading it then hearing the PC speak it. She is pointing out that such a situation could be avoided by simply skipping the dialogue when the PC speaks. I dunno, just my guess.

So basically a Silent PC?

All we need now is a crowbar.

[K_Tabris]

...as you can see, while breaking it down to its most basic shows the same player choices, this is an RPG and being able to chose exactly what kind of character do you want to play is a big factor. I'm okay with the wheel but I do recognize that something got lost in translation when we swapped to a Voiced PC (other than the obvious race selection).

You hit the nail on the head, This is exactly why I dislike the idea of a voiced protagonist. I loved that DAO gave us a choice of five tones for interacting with objects and battle. I also liked the freedom of choosing the PCs motivations and personality with the unvoiced lines. The use of the dialogue wheel makes me think the DA debs just want to make Dragon Age versions of Shepard because they can. The less a true rpg is like Mass Effect, the better. I wish they realized this but it is far too late now.

[Mykel54]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why is paraphrasing so bad again? I don't and have never seen or experienced any sort of game breaking or experience breaking problems with it in my years of playing their games.

It's not like you don't know what will happen, because back in dragon age 2 they pretty much labeled it with a nice bright picture to make sure you understood what was going to happen and the tone of what you were going to say. And they even made it more obvious in star wars by having a picture label, and writing the effect next to the option weather you were going to murder someone or not.

Let´s look at Merrill´s final quest

Paraphrase: I´ll take responsibility
Line: "This was a tragedy, i promise no one else will get hurt by Merrill´s blood magic"

There are many other examples, specially if you want to roleplay your Hawke. You want to take down the bloodmages? Fine, the wheel allows that. But does it allow to say why? If i am an apostate mage and i don´t want to say "You must go with the templars", i want my character to say "Blood magic is evil, i´m bringing you down". The reasoning for doing the same action are different, but many times the wheel fail to properly show what is the motivation behind each action. You only find out after hearing the spoken line, but by then it is too late.

[fchopin]

I will say nothing as we don’t want to upset Mr Gaider again.

[Ziggeh]

Without wishing to get into a "defining RPGs" conversation (which is where these things typically head):

I think people approach the dialogue from two directions, there's infinite variation within either, and most will do some of both

1: You want the dialogue to reflect what you have in your head.
2: You want the dialogue to change what you have in your head.

The problem is that the two are fundimentally incompatable. The demands of one detract from the other. I think the two can coexist, but it requires a lot more care and work than most appear to be suggesting.

For example, and this is just from my perspective playing under type 2:

Mousing over to recieve the full dialogue would detract from my experience. I don't want to be surprised, but I need to be. It requires effort on my part to reconcile something outside of my current concept of the character, but it's almost always worthwhile, adding layers and depth to the concept. But because I'm lazy, I would avoid it, given the option.

Which isn't to say my laziness is more important than someone elses experience, but that implementation needs to be carefully considered. I'm of the opinion that a system that's mediocre for both types is worse than one that's ideal for one.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:06 .