142 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

nightscrawl wrote...


As for me, in general I didn't find too much of a problem with it. However there were some instances where the paraphrase was so divorced from the spoken line that the end result was either inappropriately comical or horrific. However, they have said they are making an effort to work on how paraphrases are written, which includes the rules they have for constructing them. I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out.

Some players will not be happy AT ALL unless they can pick from a selection of full lines. That is certainly a valid viewpoint for them. It's not going to change anything though.

Bioware have said that they hear that there is a problem and will work on it to make it better for the next game, but how many times have Bioware said the same thing in the past.

ME1 fans complained about the wheel and paraphrasing so Bioware said they will make it better.
ME2 came out with the same problems and fans said that they have problems with the wheel and paraphrasing so Bioware said they will fix the problem.
DA2 came out with the same problems with fans not understanding the paraphrasing and all Bioware had done was add icons to the wheel.
ME3 came out with the same problems (some fans would say worse problems with the auto-dialogue and lack of neutral options etc.) and fans complained and Bioware said they will make it better for the next game.

Now after that many games and the fans saying they have problems with the wheel and paraphrasing and Bioware constantly saying they will fix the paraphrasing but instead leaving the paraphrasing the same in the games.
it says to me either Bioware is incapable with the staff the have to fix the problems, that the wheel/paraphrasing system is broken and cannot be fixed at all, or that Bioware has no intention of changing the wheel paraphrasing system and are content to say to there fans that they listen to them and will change the system so they can have a better game but instead will just ignore them.

[nightscrawl]

ianvillan wrote...

Bioware have said that they hear that there is a problem and will work on it to make it better for the next game, but how many times have Bioware said the same thing in the past.

DA and ME have different teams. Yes, I get that they are the same company and do share some people, but they are different, have different goals for their games, and have different reasons for doing things within their own franchises.

In the thread I linked David Gaider said:

This is not to say there aren't things we can do to make the system better other than simply being more rigorous with our use of paraphrases. Not being as anal about not repeating words and phrases between the paraphrase and the actual line(s) is one, but there are others... which we will discuss at a later time.

When I read that for the first time my brain nearly exploded with the revelation. They purposely limited themselves by setting rules about the construction of paraphrases, and among those was that the paraphrase can't share too many words with the spoken line. When you do something like that of course you are going to occasionally get paraphrases that have nothing in common with the spoken line. The writers were bending over backwards to make these paraphrases and actually making more work for themselves by having these rules.

In the end though, it's about the different outlooks we both have. You choose to be cynical and pessimistic and bias yourself against it before they have even shown us anything. I choose to be patient and optimistic. No matter how they present the dialog system to us during development we'll most likely have to wait for a demo or the actual release to really determine whether we like it or not.

I'm not really a fan of paraphrasing. I would prefer to see the full line, but I have accepted that it is not going to happen.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:41 .

[Gotholhorakh]

ianvillan wrote...
it says to me either Bioware is incapable with the staff the have to fix the problems, that the wheel/paraphrasing system is broken and cannot be fixed at all, or that Bioware has no intention of changing the wheel paraphrasing system and are content to say to there fans that they listen to them and will change the system so they can have a better game but instead will just ignore them.

I doubt it's BioWare not wanting to fix it  I think the paraphrasing system is conceptually broken, it is a bodge-and-tape job where some other concepts meet (voice acting, repetition/ui design, perhaps etc.) and you have this solution which no matter how much you work on it, is not going to be fixed entirely.

You could mitigate it with good writing, although only a bit (and there's a lot of content, it's still going to be muffed up in places). It needs changing, I think.

Design issue: Fix design.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:41 .

[Dieb]

ianvillan wrote...


...or that Bioware has no intention of changing the wheel paraphrasing system and are content to say to there fans that they listen to them and will change the system so they can have a better game but instead will just ignore them.

...or that BioWare has fans outside the BSN. I don't mean to be patronizing, but with everything that is discussed and every "consensus" formed here, we are not the majority. Not even close. BioWare -any VG company for that matter- has a strinkingly different interpretation of the word fan - which I believe is "people who bought more than one of our games".
You have to accept there are indeed people out there, who do not sign up on the BSN, buy comic books and other expanded universe merchandise, or even DLC, but still very well consider themselves a fan of BioWare's franchises. Them, combined with the ones that just pick it up and never touch it again after one playthrough, are the majority and thus people whose criticism is heeded the most. And I see nothing unjust with that.

Secondly, not doing as suggested doesn't automatically mean ignoring someone, and it also isn't mutually exclusive with listening to input. That's just downright an unfair assumption to make, and will produce nothing but even less player/dev-dialogue for upcoming games.

[Sanunes]

ianvillan wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...


As for me, in general I didn't find too much of a problem with it. However there were some instances where the paraphrase was so divorced from the spoken line that the end result was either inappropriately comical or horrific. However, they have said they are making an effort to work on how paraphrases are written, which includes the rules they have for constructing them. I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out.

Some players will not be happy AT ALL unless they can pick from a selection of full lines. That is certainly a valid viewpoint for them. It's not going to change anything though.

Bioware have said that they hear that there is a problem and will work on it to make it better for the next game, but how many times have Bioware said the same thing in the past.

ME1 fans complained about the wheel and paraphrasing so Bioware said they will make it better.
ME2 came out with the same problems and fans said that they have problems with the wheel and paraphrasing so Bioware said they will fix the problem.
DA2 came out with the same problems with fans not understanding the paraphrasing and all Bioware had done was add icons to the wheel.
ME3 came out with the same problems (some fans would say worse problems with the auto-dialogue and lack of neutral options etc.) and fans complained and Bioware said they will make it better for the next game.

Now after that many games and the fans saying they have problems with the wheel and paraphrasing and Bioware constantly saying they will fix the paraphrasing but instead leaving the paraphrasing the same in the games.
it says to me either Bioware is incapable with the staff the have to fix the problems, that the wheel/paraphrasing system is broken and cannot be fixed at all, or that Bioware has no intention of changing the wheel paraphrasing system and are content to say to there fans that they listen to them and will change the system so they can have a better game but instead will just ignore them.

You make it sound like a silent protagonist is completely flawless compared to a voiced protangonist.  Both have their issues and they are completely different from one another.  A lot of the suggestions posted on these boards that might seem that it would be very simple to do and when BioWare will post they aren't as simple as one would imagine they are called lazy or inept at their jobs.

I found a silent protagonist to be something that broke my immersion for I had to stop and read a novel of text before I picked a line so there was no flow to a conversation for people sat there blank faced while I read and many times the intended outcome I wanted for my choice insulted a person or wasn't the insult I wanted.  Yes the paraphrasing has issues at times, but I have seen improvements over the previous games and most of the time the few words described what was going to be said.

This is simply something that people are going to be left upset about because the way they want the game isn't going to happen.

Daivd Gaider talking about writing to having both.

Edit:

David Gaider talking about experimenting on having both.


Edit: I think I fixed my links

Modifié par Sanunes, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Ziggeh]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
I doubt it's BioWare not wanting to fix it  I think the paraphrasing system is conceptually broken, it is a bodge-and-tape job where some other concepts meet (voice acting, repetition/ui design, perhaps etc.) and you have this solution which no matter how much you work on it, is not going to be fixed entirely.

You could mitigate it with good writing, although only a bit (and there's a lot of content, it's still going to be muffed up in places). It needs changing, I think.

Design issue: Fix design.

It's practically perfect for the way in which I play. I have issues with the "character types" in both DA2 and ME, in that I want it to be more complex than choosing your subset, but the method is ideal.

[nightscrawl]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

You could mitigate it with good writing, although only a bit (and there's a lot of content, it's still going to be muffed up in places). It needs changing, I think.

Design issue: Fix design.

So, other than showing the full line on hover -- which they have said they are NOT going to do -- what is your suggestion?

I dislike being "that person" that says that to people, as my response to that is usually "It's not my job to think of such-and-such, that is why they get paid," but I do ask it here because everyone on this forum has a suggestion about something.

Sanunes wrote...

... for I had to stop and read a novel of text before I picked a line so there was no flow to a conversation for people sat there blank faced while I read...

Hah after playing Neverwinter Nights DAO dialog was a relief.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Gotholhorakh]

nightscrawl wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

You could mitigate it with good writing, although only a bit (and there's a lot of content, it's still going to be muffed up in places). It needs changing, I think.

Design issue: Fix design.

So, other than showing the full line on hover -- which they have said they are NOT going to do -- what is your suggestion?

I dislike being "that person" that says that to people, as my response to that is usually "It's not my job to think of such-and-such, that is why they get paid," but I do ask it here because everyone on this forum has a suggestion about something.

Well I'm not sure my suggestions would be helpful with the direction BioWare has taken the games unless they wanted to abandon that direction -  I would prefer not to have PC voiced during dialog really, it breaks immersion for me, has to disincentivize extra dialogue options/content/late editing etc, and I don't want to wait for the animation to slowly play out a dialogue option I have just chosen.

If I had to create such a system, I guess I might have the character begin speaking lines on hover over the full text (say after a second's pause), then continue if you ok it, just to avoid the redundant dialog which would be maddening for some people. It would also give the chance to sample how it's said if you want (which *sort of* is what people did with the text on a silent PC, anyway) or fly through the menu and hit the answer you know you want. Just my first thought on it - facilitating the voicing is difficult to get much enthusiasm going for though, 'cause I'm not a fan of the PC voicing as such, even given the benefits I can see.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:03 .

[nightscrawl]

Looking at those links that Sanunes posted -- which I've now saved to my bookmark collection, thanks -- I was reminded of something that David has mentioned in the past that I didn't understand.

David Gaider wrote...

No, we looked at that. Extensively, actually, as it was an idea brought up on the forums and it bore investigation. Considering the way we write for the voiced PC, showing you the following line doesn't always give you the information you think it would. Often it does, sure, but with paraphrases we're talking about frequency of disconnect... and the frequency is no less when we show the following lines unless we change how we write the voiced PC to make it the same as the silent PC (and thus lose the advantages of such). There is no improvement.

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, last time I will go through this particular argument-- in the future, I'll simply link to this if I must.

Displaying the full text of the line for a voiced PC does not work for us. We investigated it. We tried it out, and discussed it, and ultimately discarded the idea.

I get that some people feel they need all the information in order to make their dialogue choice-- and they feel that seeing the entire line displayed for them will give them that information. It won't. Or, I should say, it will... but it will break down just as often as paraphrases do. Which is to say not very often, but often enough that you remember the situations where that happens. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if we started writing player lines as if the PC weren't voiced, as in Origins.

In both of these he mentions that they looked at the option to display the full line and found that it didn't work for them. OK, they have internal and external testing in various ways that I'm completely ignorant of. I can accept that they feel this is the right course based on their evidence.

I also understand that the method of writing for a voiced PC and a silent PC is different and needs to be considered.

What I don't understand, and what I feel has never been explained, are remarks such as "... showing you the following line doesn't always give you the information you think it would," or that the lines "will break down just as often as paraphrases do."

I would really like some actual examples, perhaps even using some real lines from DA2 or something, since we're all familiar with that. How does it break down? What information is it not giving me? A full line seems very direct, which is why I don't understand.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:08 .

[Dieb]

nightscrawl wrote...

What I don't understand, and what I feel has never been explained, are remarks such as "... showing you the following line doesn't always give you the information you think it would," or that the lines "will break down just as often as paraphrases do."

I would really like some actual examples, perhaps even using some real lines from DA2 or something, since we're all familiar with that. How does it break down? What information is it not giving me? A full line seems very direct, which is why I don't understand.

I think the answer is quite simple: Tone.

If the "non-paraphrase" would be for example "We're not going to do that.", there are so many things your protagonist can possibly want to express, that the sentence alone wouldn't help you determine it.

[nightscrawl]

Baelrahn wrote...

I think the answer is quite simple: Tone.

If the "non-paraphrase" would be for example "We're not going to do that.", there are so many things your protagonist can possibly want to express, that the sentence alone wouldn't help you determine it.

But there is only one recorded line for that paraphrase though. Or do you know there isn't (serious question)?

The computer isn't writing the line on the spot, it is pre-recorded dialog. There is a script for that somewhere that has the full sentence in it, and it also matches the in-game subtitles.

Ignore the tones for a moment and let's just pretend there are simply 3 options.
1 Yes.
2 Maybe.
3 No.

It doesn't matter what the tone is. If you pick option 1 with the paraphrase of Yes, the spoken line is "I'd love to help." Maybe is "What's in it for me?" No is "Sod off, duster." It doesn't matter that options 1, 2, and 3 correspond to nice, snark, and jerk.

During the Escape from the Blight DA2 prolog there is an aggressive option that has your PC say "Are you two insane? If we stand around, we'll die." Hawke says it in a forceful manner, it matches the icon. If there were no preview and I saw that full line with the tone icon (red fist), I would expect Hawke to say that line in a forceful manner, which is what happens. If it were the blue or purple icon, Hawke might say it in a more scared or panicked tone; I can see how that line would read differently with the same words. To me that is the purpose of the icons: to tell you how the line is going to read. How is that not helpful?

All of this is ignoring the repetition issue which I get would be a problem for some people. I'm more concerned with why the full line would not be as effective as I think it would be.


Again, I'm not arguing for anything, I simply want to understand.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:49 .

[Ziggeh]

nightscrawl wrote...

It doesn't matter what the tone is. If you pick option 1 with the paraphrase of Yes, the spoken line is "I'd love to help." Maybe is "What's in it for me?" No is "Sod off, duster." It doesn't matter that options 1, 2, and 3 correspond to nice, snark, and jerk.

...

All of this is ignoring the repetition issue which I get would be a problem for some people. I'm more concerned with why the full line would not be as effective as I think it would be.

I can't tell from Gaider's comment if it's they're supplying all of the elements - paraphrase, icon and text, so this may be irrelevant. but just within your example: "I'd love to help.", depending on tone could mean "I'm definitely going to help you" or "I'd really like to, but can't".

[nightscrawl]

Ziggeh wrote...

I can't tell from Gaider's comment if it's they're supplying all of the elements - paraphrase, icon and text, so this may be irrelevant. but just within your example: "I'd love to help.", depending on tone could mean "I'm definitely going to help you" or "I'd really like to, but can't".

I edited my post, but I'll reply anyway.

That is what the icons are for, to show the tone in which your PC will say the line. The blue icon would indicate that it was in the nice tone. Again though, there is only ONE result when you hit the option: "I'd love to help," said in a specific manner. There isn't the option to interpret it in the manner of a silent PC. So I don't really see how you can get enthusiasm or reluctance when there is only one outcome.


They are keeping icons, btw.

[Dieb]

nightscrawl wrote...
Again, I'm not arguing for anything, I simply want to understand.

Yes, and you have a point. I wrote "think" in italic, to highlight I'm only speculating here as well.

Maybe it is even an entirely different approach?

Maybe the mystery in what your protagonist is actually going to say is even intentional. I mean, while I personally loved (Sarcastic-) Hawke, he is not you. The Warden was a blank slate character, meant for you to fill in, and I thought it just didn't work out. He always seemed to be in an entitrely different realm than all the other characters - less part of the group and more of a constant photobomber. Maybe my imagination is just too limited, but the classic RPG-dialogue system only worked for me when everybody else's lines were just text as well.
That would actually even give some sense to the apparent obligation not to have the paraphrases match the spoken lines whenever possible.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 08 juillet 2013 - 12:58 .

[Ziggeh]

nightscrawl wrote...

That is what the icons are for, to show the tone in which your PC will say the line. The blue icon would indicate that it was in the nice tone.

They can both be nice. Maybe he genuinely would like to help, if he could. 

nightscrawl wrote...
Again though, there is only ONE result when you hit the option: "I'd love to help," said in a specific manner. There isn't the option to interpret it in the manner of a silent PC. So I don't really see how you can get enthusiasm or reluctance when there is only one outcome..

But we're talking about the disconnect between what it means and what you might think it means? You don't get the specific manner from the text....only after, which is the problem..I'm a little confused as to what you mean. Ironically.

[nightscrawl]

Baelrahn wrote...

Maybe it is even an entirely different approach?

Maybe the mystery in what your protagonist is actually going to say is even intentional. I mean, while I personally loved (Sarcastic-) Hawke, he is not you. The Warden was a blank slate character, meant for you to fill in, and I thought it just didn't work out. He always seemed to be in an entitrely different realm than all the other characters - less part of the group and more of a constant photobomber. Maybe my imagination is just too limited, but the classic RPG-dialogue system only worked for me when everybody else's lines were just text as well.
That would actually even give some sense to the apparent obligation not to have the paraphrases match the spoken lines whenever possible.

Lol @ photobomber.

You make an interesting point, especially with sarcastic Hawke. Most of the lines are things I would never think of, let alone say. But hilarious nonetheless.

To me, one of the things I have observed with the silent PC in DAO -- I'm in the middle of a DAO play right now -- is that the PC gets far fewer words than an NPC. For example, you ask something of another NPC: "Wouldn't it be easier if we just killed Loghain?" and the response can be several sentences long. You have the option to ask another question in the course of the conversation, but I always get the feeling that the NPCs talk a lot more than my PC, and that I don't actually contribute much other than asking the questions to respond to.

To me this is especially bad with the romances. It feels like these LI are pouring out their hearts to me and I can only respond with "That's very sweet," or "I feel the same way."

Ziggeh wrote...

But we're talking about the disconnect between what it means and what you might think it means? You don't get the specific manner from the text....only after, which is the problem..I'm a little confused as to what you mean. Ironically.

You are saying that the tone can sound reluctant, while saying the same words? And that, even if it is a blue icon, you might have a reluctant tone, which you won't know about until you hear it?

OK, I understand your meaning now. I don't really have a response though XD.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 juillet 2013 - 01:12 .

[Ziggeh]

nightscrawl wrote...

You are saying that the tone can sound reluctant, while saying the same words? And that, even if it is a blue icon, you might have a reluctant tone, which you won't know about until you hear it?

OK, I understand your meaning now. I don't really have a response though XD.

I'd say with the icon you're less likely to mistake it for reluctance, but you could certainly get "saying no gently" from that line/icon combo.

[ggghhhxxxpuf]

I just have one sugestion in all this: keep the icons, discard the colours. They're not keeping dominant tone, the icons should be enough and some people would feel less "railroaded" with tonality.
Other than that, the wheel works mighty fine. The whole line would end in tediousnes, you would "hear" the line twice and in a long game like this it would become annoying, VERY. Just tune the paraphrases and all becomes perf.

[Hadeedak]

 /-----It has charm. It visually delivers the relevant information. Still, I understand why you feel that way.
/
O ------ Look, it's not ALL bad, even though it can be a pain.
\\
 \\____ Die, OP! The dialogue wheel will loot your corpse!

Modifié par Hadeedak, 08 juillet 2013 - 01:59 .

[Jonata]

AlanC9 wrote...

MarchoftheVolus wrote...

This is precisely why the voiced PC/dialogue wheel needs to go. It severly limits the player's ability to roleplay in a roleplaying game. For the life of me I cannot understand why Bioware decided to start this practice when all it does is increase the amount of time and money a project takes while screwing up a key feature.

No doubt the answer is that Bio simply disagrees with you about roleplaying.

Not quite. I think BioWare is simply exploring a very different direction with their games and in doing so they are steering away from what people normally perceive as Role Playing. 

It could be good, it could be bad, according to one's personal taste. Obviously right now in this franchise we have an almost perfect game without the Voiced PC (DA:O) and a very flawed game with the Voiced PC and Dialogue Wheel (DA2) so it's obvious that my first reaction is to say that the DW is a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that DA:I will actually blow us all away and show everyone that a Voiced PC can be as RP-worthy as any Silent PC. 

Hadeedak wrote...

 /-----It has charm. It visually delivers the relevant information. Still, I understand why you feel that way.
/
O ------ Look, it's not ALL bad, even though it can be a pain.

 ____ Die, OP! The dialogue wheel will loot your corpse!

This is pure genius. 

[ForceXev]

I had forum discussions like this one in my mind while I was playing the 400 Days DLC for The Walking Dead, and I was paying attention to how they do the dialogue.  I noticed that it's kind of a compromise -- the exact sentence that you pick from the dialogue options is spoken by the character, with some additional stuff added on.  So for example, one dialogue option in the Shel story is "I'm trying to protect her."  Then the spoken dialogue is "I'm trying to protect her from it as much as possible. Things are stable here for now. I want her to grow up with this, and not what's outside these walls."  So the line you choose is spoken by the character, but you still get to experience the spoken dialogue fresh because there is more added to the statement I picked.  This seems to work really well, a lot better than in Bioware games where you can pick "I'm trying to protect her" and then the spoken dialogue ends up being something like "Protecting her has been such a pain in the ass, I wish she would die.  Hey, by the way, let's have sex!" 

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't sound like very much of a solution. What peole want is to enjoy hearing the dialogue for the first time. 

Perhaps they could disable the hover text?

[MerinTB]

For the time being, wheel and voice are "BioWare standards."

I can understand that...

and still "voice" that I find those to be BAD decisions.

[Salaya]

The discussion was pretty neat, thanks.

BTW - I know the wheel is here to stay. I've read the threads, too. It's obvious that I dislike the wheel, but it was not my intention to discuss if it is bad, likable or not.

What I tried to say was: if the reason to consider hovering full lines not a valid middle ground because the full line will be voiced the next second, no matter what, I should point that the voiced line may be ignored by clicking the action button, canceling the voiced line. Therefore, is not true that hovering full lines are not a valid middle ground because the text will be voiced-shown again.

So, what is the true reason to make the wheel the standard and not offering an alternative? Apart from "Because they want it this way, period".