Aller au contenu

Photo

Dialogue Wheel, the bad decision.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
142 réponses à ce sujet

#101
MerinTB

MerinTB
  • Members
  • 4 688 messages

Plaintiff wrote...
I did not realise that niche crowd-funded projects were single-handedly changing the "direction" of modern games.


RPG's are niche by definition.

If you are going to argue about size of niches, then you are pedantically arguing semantics.

Major games from inXile and Obsidian might not be Call of Duty, but few things are. 

Because The Artist made less than 10% of The Avengers box office in 2012 does that make The Artist irrelevant?

Free-to-play games changed the MMO landscape, and they started off much, much smaller than WoW.

Harry Potter was rejected quite a bit, that book being by an unemployed, unpublished single mother.  What impact did THAT have?

But you keep focusing on the newness and size of projects like Wasteland 2, if it makes you feel better.  :whistle:

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2013 - 12:20 .


#102
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I did not realise that niche crowd-funded projects were single-handedly changing the "direction" of modern games.


For those that have wanted what those games have proposed to have then it would be changing the direction of modern games. It would be a clear sign such games are still viable and don't need the massive marketing campaigns and overinflated budgets the suits believe games need to turn a profit. Given EA and Valve have already extended a open hand to many of these projects to help distribute thru their digital services. If they succeed at this is yet to be seen.

I am having trouble reading your post as anything but a snipe at those excited for such games.

I don't care if people are excited for them, but there's a difference between wanting to play them and vastly overstating their importance to the industry by pre-emptively stating them to be changing the direction of "modern games".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2013 - 12:25 .


#103
MerinTB

MerinTB
  • Members
  • 4 688 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I did not realise that niche crowd-funded projects were single-handedly changing the "direction" of modern games.

For those that have wanted what those games have proposed to have then it would be changing the direction of modern games. It would be a clear sign such games are still viable and don't need the massive marketing campaigns and overinflated budgets the suits believe games need to turn a profit. Given EA and Valve have already extended a open hand to many of these projects to help distribute thru their digital services. If they succeed at this is yet to be seen.
I am having trouble reading your post as anything but a snipe at those excited for such games.

I don't care if people are excited for them, but there's a difference between wanting to play them and vastly overstating their importance to the industry by pre-emptively stating them to be changing the direction of "modern games".


They are modern games - games being made right now. 

They raised millions of dollars based on concepts alone.  Big publishers are paying attention - Brian Fargo and Feargus Urquhart have both stated that publishers have been contacting them, wanting to get in on their projects (one outright tried to buy PE from Obsidian once it hit its KS goal) and Chris Avellone has also said that publishers are now interested in pursuing middle-range games again due to the excitement from games like Wasteland 2, PE and Torment.

Many gamers who wanted these kind of games are ecstatic and eager for these and more like these.

That is a change in direction from where the RPG video game had been heading on multiple levels.

#104
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages

MerinTB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I did not realise that niche crowd-funded projects were single-handedly changing the "direction" of modern games.


RPG's are niche by definition.

If you are going to argue about size of niches, then you are pedantically arguing semantics.

Major games from inXile and Obsidian might not be Call of Duty, but few things are. 

Because The Artist made less than 10% of The Avengers box office in 2012 does that make The Artist irrelevant?

Free-to-play games changed the MMO landscape, and they started off much, much smaller than WoW.

Harry Potter was rejected quite a bit, that book being by an unemployed, unpublished single mother.  What impact did THAT have?

But you keep focusing on the newness and size of projects like Wasteland 2, if it makes you feel better.  :whistle:


Eh, it's not the potential for such projects that frightens me. I want them to be good, quality games, which gives me a bigger pool to choose and play from.

It's when some start talking like these games have already changed the course of RPGs that I can't help but shake my head. The idea of a spiritual successor to Planescape sounds phenomenal. But it surely wouldn't be the first time a writer returned to an old property  much later with less than successful results.

#105
MerinTB

MerinTB
  • Members
  • 4 688 messages

Il Divo wrote...
It's when some start talking like these games have already changed the course of RPGs that I can't help but shake my head. The idea of a spiritual successor to Planescape sounds phenomenal. But it surely wouldn't be the first time a writer returned to an old property  much later with less than successful results.


How many times has it happened without publisher control?

By most definitions of success, Wasteland 2 and their like are already a success.  The studios developing the games have been paid, and no one is owed any money.  Every single sale once the game is complete is pretty much pure profit for the company.  As long as their backers, by and large, are satisfied, the game technically doesn't have to sell a single copy.  inXile or Obsidian would just need to do another KS for the sequel, and, assuming they raised a sizable portion of what they raised the first time, they have all the ground work ready to make the follow-up easy.

Assuming they satisfy the majority of their backers.

Realistically, of course the game has to sell copies beyond the backers.  But, just as realisticially, of COURSE it is going to sell copies beyond the backers.

The weird thing will be watching how their sales numbers are spun.  Low sales numbers will likely be spun hard as bad by KS naysayers and corporate stooges, despite what "low" could even be defined as.  But if the game sells about what other mid-budget indie games do, it's a rip-roaring success that would be very hard to spin as otherwise.

Odds are these games are niche enough that, until they are reviewed as awesome, the sales won't be THAT high.  And since they are computer (PC, Mac, Linux) exclusives, you cannot even begin to expect console sales numbers.

Judging the post-release sales will be an interesting process to watch unfold.

#106
addiction21

addiction21
  • Members
  • 6 066 messages

Il Divo wrote...


Eh, it's not the potential for such projects that frightens me. I want them to be good, quality games, which gives me a bigger pool to choose and play from.

It's when some start talking like these games have already changed the course of RPGs that I can't help but shake my head. The idea of a spiritual successor to Planescape sounds phenomenal. But it surely wouldn't be the first time a writer returned to an old property  much later with less than successful results.


Well given there are 4-5 of such games in production right now (pretty sure that's modern) should enlarge that pool. To the point that at least one should strike home for you in particular.

I have long been past the point I was sick and tired of MANY prompting Kickstarter as the new golden age of CRPGS but so many far surpassing their original goals and the biggest names in the game industry taking notice means something.

And in a desperate attempt to steer in back on track. Something about not having a problem with seeing a dialogue wheel used . To tired atm.

#107
Urazz

Urazz
  • Members
  • 2 445 messages

Jonata wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

not so much the "bad decision" as the decision you don't like. I on the other hand like it.
But in the end, does it really matter?

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! (engage quest)
If I have to (engage quest)
For a price.... (engage quest, get payed)
What are you offering? (engage quest, get payed)
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? (engage sociopathic elf mode)
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! (engage quest)
I'll do it... for a price (Engage quest, get payed)
Die now! (engage sociopathic elf mode)

Break down of actual player choice
quest
quest with pay
murder


Actually I think the problem with the Voiced PC is right there. Let's look at the potential RP choices in the hands of the player:

Silent PC
Anything to help Friend! > White Knight
If I have to > Reluctant Hero
For a price.... > Mercenary
What are you offering? > Mercenary Hero
What if I simply kill you and take your gold instead!? > Evil Mercenary
{Stab him in the throat for no apparent reason} > Sociopath

5 potentially different characters. Look at the Voiced PC:

Voiced PC
I will help you for free! > Hero
I'll do it... for a price > Pragmatic Hero (basically, Renegade Hero from ME)
Die now! > Sociopath

3 version of the same character that get repeated during the whole game.

...as you can see, while breaking it down to its most basic shows the same player choices, this is an RPG and being able to chose exactly what kind of character do you want to play is a big factor. I'm okay with the wheel but I do recognize that something got lost in translation when we swapped to a Voiced PC (other than the obvious race selection).

That's not true actually.  Voiced PCs get like 75% of the conversation choices as a Silent PC.  You just don't get them all together in one big list to choose from and some of the Silent PC conversation options are just redundant.

Some conversation options which generally are just asking questions are in the investigation menu on the left,  The other 5 slots can be used for choices to advance the conversation if you need that many.  Not only that but some options on the 2 slots on the left that aren't always used don't appear unless you use the options in the investigate screen.

Then there are sub-choices, it's essentially the same kind of choice but it gets split up into 2 different kinds of choices.  For example, the threaten the NPC option and kill the NPC option on a Silent PC will just be on one big list.  While on the Voiced PC will just have the threaten NPC option as an initial evil option but will then get another choice after that choice on whether to kill that NPC or not.  It's still the same amount of options but just not on one big list.

Then there are the options which are pretty much the same exact thing with no real difference.  With your example, the mercenary option and the mercenary hero option are pretty much redundant as they are the same exact thing with just a slight difference in tone.  Not only that but on some quests you don't get to ask about the reward until after the quest is done and then you have the option of turning down the reward, accepting the reward, or demanding more (which can potentially lead to killing the NPC).

If you are talking about actual choices in the game affecting the outcome, then tell me one game where you get more than 2 to 3 choices in a bioware RPG with a Silent PC.

#108
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

I did not realise that niche crowd-funded projects were single-handedly changing the "direction" of modern games.

Who said changing?  They contribute to that direction.  If we're talking about what modern games are like, we should look at the whole group of modern games, which includes those crowd-funded titles.

#109
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

MerinTB wrote...
By most definitions of success, Wasteland 2 and their like are already a success.  The studios developing the games have been paid, and no one is owed any money.


Unless the studio exhausts the money without developing the game, which has already happened in one case. There are lots of reasons for that, and it's certainly not plausible to generalize from a single instance to kickstarter video game ventures as a whole, but pretending like enterprise risk has vanished because a company has already raised capital via pre-orders + donations is short-sighted. 

Judging the post-release sales will be an interesting process to watch unfold.


It'll be nonsensical. These are all private companies, and their entire business model is generating 100% of the capital upfront from the market via pre-orders and donations. So long as they can actually budget well and stay within their plan, they can be self-perpetuating so long as they can cover salary for everyone since they're not profit-driven ventures per se. 

#110
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Who said changing?  They contribute to that direction.  If we're talking about what modern games are like, we should look at the whole group of modern games, which includes those crowd-funded titles.


I imagine most people are unwilling to say that an FPS is a niche market, though, so really we're not looking at the modern game market as a whole at all.

#111
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages
Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

#112
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

MerinTB wrote...
Because The Artist made less than 10% of The Avengers box office in 2012 does that make The Artist irrelevant?

I won't be looking for it to determine future trends in cinema, that's for sure.

#113
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

#114
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages
I think that it's too early to decide the scope and impact of crowdsourcing on the video game industry as a whole. If you want to talk about its effect right now... it's helped a few games come into existence or expand that otherwise wouldn't have.

Harry Potter, it ain't.

#115
Paul E Dangerously

Paul E Dangerously
  • Members
  • 1 884 messages
I love this (false) idea that there were six possible answers to every decision in a "silent" RPG and it's just voice that limited them to three.

#116
pdusen

pdusen
  • Members
  • 1 788 messages

Salaya wrote...

But you can't just bring your own problem, statement or complaint and make it appear as if it was mine.


That's almost exactly what you have done, though, by repeatedly referring to YOUR problem with the dialog wheel as THE problem, on a forum where, for a vocal number of users, THE problem has a set meaning.

But let me reiterate--neither problem is my problem. I like the dialog wheel. But I saw people in this thread and yourself were not talking about the same thing and made a move to correct it.

#117
Salaya

Salaya
  • Members
  • 851 messages

pdusen wrote...
That's almost exactly what you have done, though, by repeatedly referring to YOUR problem with the dialog wheel as THE problem, on a forum where, for a vocal number of users, THE problem has a set meaning.

But let me reiterate--neither problem is my problem. I like the dialog wheel. But I saw people in this thread and yourself were not talking about the same thing and made a move to correct it.


If you assume that THE problem is the problem shared by all, or that I had any other intention but speaking about mine in a thread posted by myself... well, I think you have completely misundertood my words.

At the same time, assuming that there is A problem related to the dialogue wheel that is stated in your terms is extremely ridiculous, if not presumptuos. I did not assume that I have a problem common to all people here, that's something you bring, again, freely. I assume, though, that some people has the same problem as mine. On the contrary, you have some shadowy mechanism that allows you to identify THE problem of every forum member regarding this topic and use this knowledge to correct us.

Maybe you can share that method with us? That way we will be able to know all THE things.

#118
hoorayforicecream

hoorayforicecream
  • Members
  • 3 420 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?


Don't forget the games that got funded and ended up delayed, overscoped, and ended up having to cut promised content because of bad management.

#119
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

They aren't games.  If we're looking at games, we should look at games.  Games are necessarily things that do get made.

#120
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?


Don't forget the games that got funded and ended up delayed, overscoped, and ended up having to cut promised content because of bad management.

We probably should wait to judge the games until they are actually released.

As I said above, "As for the direction modern games are heading, I'm looking forward to Wasteland 2."  Once released, Wasteland 2 will be a valuable data point.

#121
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

They aren't games.  If we're looking at games, we should look at games.  Games are necessarily things that do get made.

Nonsense. The assertion is that the existence of certain crowd-funded games indicates a positive shift in the 'direction' of modern gaming. Meaning crowd-funding is having (or will have) a significant impact on the wider trends of the industry; namely how games are made, and what kinds of games are made. That assertion necessarily carries with it the underlying assumption that the crowd-funding model is not just a possible method for publication, but that it will prove to be a reliable method in the long term.

For the validity of that claim to be properly assessed, it is absolutely necessary to examine how many crowd-funded titles succeed or fail ("succeed" in this case meaning acheive publication and widespread recognition), relative to the success and failures of mainstream publishing channels.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:06 .


#122
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

Nonsense. The assertion is that the existence of certain crowd-funded games indicates a positive shift in the 'direction' of modern gaming.

I made no such assertion.

That assertion necessarily carries with it the underlying assumption that the crowd-funding model is not just a possible method for publication, but that it will prove to be a reliable method in the long term.

Only if the crowd-funding itself it what's relevant.  And it isn't.  What's relevant about the crowd-funded games is that they appear to contain different design elements.  Crowd-funded appears to have been necessary to make these first few titles, but once those titles are released we may find that the market for them is sufficiently vibrant to eliminate the need for crowd-funding.

That said, InXile does seem to be trying to use crowd-funding as an on-going part of its business model, having crowd-funded the new Torment game before Wasteland 2 was even finished.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:08 .


#123
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Nonsense. The assertion is that the existence of certain crowd-funded games indicates a positive shift in the 'direction' of modern gaming.

I made no such assertion.

It's implied in your wording. "As for the direction of modern gaming, I am looking forward to Game X" suggests that Game X will make a difference worth noting, rather than being an anomaly.

#124
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 126 messages
Every game is worth noting. We can't cherry-pick data.

And there's no such thing as implication. It appears I may need to repost that essay.

There we go.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:28 .


#125
MerinTB

MerinTB
  • Members
  • 4 688 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Because The Artist made less than 10% of The Avengers box office in 2012 does that make The Artist
irrelevant?

I won't be looking for it to determine future trends in cinema, that's for sure.



Ah, but a French black-and-white silent film without special effects, big name stars wins numerous awards AND
earns nearly ten times it's budget? Shows that foreign films, films not based on existing properties, films not about special effects and action sequences, can be enormously successful.

You think that doesn't change things?

Avengers is a super-hero, effect laden, big budget, star-packed, action filled tent pole movie. It is de rigueur and changes nothing about films.

And before you say it reinforces the current model – action packed, decades old properites, with star power and big budgets, have failed 2 out of 4 times for Disney in the last two years. It's given them much pause on that model. Arguably, Avengers is successful in SPITE OF Disney, leaving only Oz as a success fully of their own making.

In the past the success of indie films really did change the movie industry in the 90's. It is likely to happen again.

To be clear – I love Avengers, and have never seen The Artist. And I don't for a minute think that, even with the smaller budget one making nearly ten times its budget as compared to the bigger budget one “only” making about seven times its budget, that studios are going to stop making big budget films.

But the success of every The Artist means more films like The Artist can be made, and the failure of every John Carter does mean that making a less expensive film like The Artist seems more attractive.

Big, formulaic AAA video games are far larger risks than medium level, less “trendy” games. Every time a medium level game with unique designs generates hype and a great return on investment, it is a sign that such things are viable.  Especially after each major flop of AAA, big budget, “safe” design games.

And I purposefully picked The Artist because it was silent, black-and-white and had no high-end effects, just to cut off any arguments about a game like Wasteland 2 “doing it the old way, not a new way.”

---

So, long post made short - feel free to ignore what is happening with Kickstarter and mid-level developers.  That's your prerogative.  But there is a range of what "change" can be that exist between "no effect" and "everything copies this going forward."  And black-and-white, super-hero-less manga can co-exist with colored, super-hero-full comic books.  In time they can even outsell them.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:40 .