142 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I think that it's too early to decide the scope and impact of crowdsourcing on the video game industry as a whole. If you want to talk about its effect right now... it's helped a few games come into existence or expand that otherwise wouldn't have.

Harry Potter, it ain't.

Harry Potter wasn't Harry Potter, either, for the first couple books.

You have no idea if Wasteland 2 or Project Eternity will be the next, well, Wasteland or Baldur's Gate.

Look at Skyrim.  That came from Arena.  When Arena came out no one would have predicted Skyrim.

We don't know the long term impact of it - but we never know the long term impact of anything.  What we CAN see is that, right now, things have changed.  Will the changes last?  No one knows.

You can't know.

But it can be promising and exciting, and thinking on how other things that came from nothing rose to major success, despite going against the established "way things work", makes it even more hopeful.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2013 - 06:05 .

[MerinTB]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

Don't forget the games that got funded and ended up delayed, overscoped, and  ended up having to cut promised content because of bad management.

Are we going to include all the games that were pitched at dev meetings as failures?  Or just ones devs pitched to publishers?  Or ones greenlit by publishers but were scrapped early in development?  Or ones that were being made and yet were still canned with a lot of work done on them?

False argument is false.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

Look at Skyrim.  That came from Arena.  When Arena came out no one would have predicted Skyrim.

I might have predicted something far better than Skyrim.  I loved Arena.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Filament wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

They aren't games.  If we're looking at games, we should look at games.  Games are necessarily things that do get made.

Neither are RPGs?

Touché.

I'm happy to replace "games" with "RPGs" in that earlier post.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Look at Skyrim.  That came from Arena.  When Arena came out no one would have predicted Skyrim.

I might have predicted something far better than Skyrim.  I loved Arena.

My favorite is still Daggerfall, but hey...


...

what does any of this have to do with dialog wheels?

Oh, right, dialog wheels are so bad we just naturally drift to other topics. :innocent:

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

My favorite is still Daggerfall, but hey...

Daggerfall is the only one I haven't played.

what does any of this have to do with dialog wheels?
Oh, right, dialog wheels are so bad we just naturally drift to other topics. :innocent:

But we don't all agree on why they're bad, so it's still a valuable topic sometimes.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

My favorite is still Daggerfall, but hey...

Daggerfall is the only one I haven't played.

what does any of this have to do with dialog wheels?
Oh, right, dialog wheels are so bad we just naturally drift to other topics. :innocent:

But we don't all agree on why they're bad, so it's still a valuable topic sometimes.

True, true.  Some people could just hate circular things, and that wouldn't be the primary reason most hate dialog wheels. 

[Salaya]

MerinTB wrote...

...

what does any of this have to do with dialog wheels?

Oh, right, dialog wheels are so bad we just naturally drift to other topics. :innocent:

Let's discuss cats, then. Or our favorite LIs. Or...or... maybe share our opinions on how Sandal is the new Flemeth?

But, going back to topic: I don't think dialogue wheels are bad per se. But certainly it's a gameplay mechanic that should be handled better. For example, adding hovering full line text

I understand devs complaints and all... but I simply find them irrelevant or subtle lies. I know that taking account of the precedent this will sound like a joke, but I frankly believe this topic wouldn't be so... controversial if they just said that it was a design decision back in the day.

Some of the reasons Bioware have made lately to justify their gameplay/artistic decisions seem only like excuses to me. Or bad marketing!

[kaidanismylover]

no i dont think a diolog wheel is bad i like them.

[hoorayforicecream]

MerinTB wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Was it not mentioned that we were taking about roleplaying games only? I thought it had, but I might be mistaken.

Certainly the crowd-funded titles need to be included in any analysis of modern roleplaying games.

Including the many titles that did not acheive funding, yes?

Don't forget the games that got funded and ended up delayed, overscoped, and  ended up having to cut promised content because of bad management.

Are we going to include all the games that were pitched at dev meetings as failures?  Or just ones devs pitched to publishers?  Or ones greenlit by publishers but were scrapped early in development?  Or ones that were being made and yet were still canned with a lot of work done on them?

False argument is false.

Sure. Let's only consider all of the funded and released crowd-funded RPGs then. Unfortunately, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Maybe you could provide us with an actual list of those games to consider?

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's why I said "I look forward".

[MerinTB]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Sure. Let's only consider all of the funded and released crowd-funded RPGs then. Unfortunately, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Maybe you could provide us with an actual list of those games to consider?

How far do you want to stretch a definition?

Are rogue-like's RPGs?  A type of RPG is a rogue-like.  If so...

FTL.

Otherwise:

Sequence, Cthulhu Saves the World, and check back in two weeks for Shadowrun Returns (which beta testers are playing and you can find plenty of Let's Play videos.)

Considering that most of the RPGs being Kickstartered only started appearing, at most, two years ago, you should only expect to start seeing them this year and next year.  Games do tend to take over a year to make.

EDIT: Correction, other than the two completed and released games, there's only one other in 2011 and all the rest are 2012 (FTL started in April and released in September of that year), all following Wasteland 2's April campaign.  So we are BARELY a year out from the start of all these games - as in, the very early start of development.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2013 - 11:17 .

[MerinTB]

Salaya wrote...
I understand devs complaints and all... but I simply find them irrelevant or subtle lies. I know that taking account of the precedent this will sound like a joke, but I frankly believe this topic wouldn't be so... controversial if they just said that it was a design decision back in the day.

Some of the reasons Bioware have made lately to justify their gameplay/artistic decisions seem only like excuses to me. Or bad marketing!

I cannot explain the wheels and pizza-slice sub-menus of NWN...

but, clearly, the wheel for ME was due to it being a console exclusive.  Navigating that wheel with a thumbstick is easier (arguably) than scrolling a dialog list.  It also probably was seen as a forced technical constraint for them to reign-in wanting to give too many nuanced-wording but game-effective-neutral choices.

The choice to shift it over to DA2 is also clear that the DA2 focus was on improving the console experience (If not outright focusing on the console period.)

Any defense of the wheel layout that doesn't rest on thumbsticks just sounds as so much nonsense.

The paraphrase system is partially an artifice of the wheel, and the justification of "people not wanting to read a line they are about to hear" is convenient - I do not believe it is the motivating reason for the paraphrase, but a useful "customer desire" to latch onto.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I really dislike that they didn't number the options on the wheel. While the wheel may well work better for thumbsticks, removing the numerical labels made it quite a bit harder to control with the keyboard.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I really dislike that they didn't number the options on the wheel. While the wheel may well work better for thumbsticks, removing the numerical labels made it quite a bit harder to control with the keyboard.

How many games switch interfaces on the fly if you move a thumbstick or a mouse?

I was just playing The Walking Dead and it does this.  Granted, it fails to use numbers as well, but it at least switches from button calls to a scrollable list.

[Salaya]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I really dislike that they didn't number the options on the wheel. While the wheel may well work better for thumbsticks, removing the numerical labels made it quite a bit harder to control with the keyboard.

Ironically, I think DA2 still accepted numerical entries when selecting answers (not sure if it was DA2 or ME, though). Never tried it extensively, but I guess with time you can guess number correspondences.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DA2 did. ME did not, but DA2 did. The numbers corresponded to specific positions on the wheel, so no one number was ever guaranteed to be there - and they weren't labelled, so you needed to memorise the pattern, which was not sequential.