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MALE "Kossith" (OX-MEN) LI

Débuté par Guest_Trista Hawke_* , juil. 08 2013 05:00

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#126
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 01:58

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Trista Hawke wrote...
In this thread, for clarity's sake, I'm referring to the race as Kossith (as a whole) and their religion as Qunari. 

Cassandra: Qunari is not a race, it's a religion. 

^^^ I'm flying with this for the thread, just to keep it less confusing.

I find that confusing. 

I appreciate that when it's used we all understand what you mean, which one would think would be the very definition of a word, but the very person responsible for the creation of the word has told us that it's innacurate usage.

Sorry to be a pedant, it's just that my brain keeps tripping over the word, like it's an innapropriate use of there, their and they're. 

#127
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:03

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Ziggeh wrote...

Trista Hawke wrote...
In this thread, for clarity's sake, I'm referring to the race as Kossith (as a whole) and their religion as Qunari. 

Cassandra: Qunari is not a race, it's a religion. 

^^^ I'm flying with this for the thread, just to keep it less confusing.

I find that confusing. 

I appreciate that when it's used we all understand what you mean, which one would think would be the very definition of a word, but the very person responsible for the creation of the word has told us that it's innacurate usage.

Sorry to be a pedant, it's just that my brain keeps tripping over the word, like it's an innapropriate use of there, their and they're. 

 

Well, I don't know what else to tell you. So far the majority of the BSN uses "Kossith" to indicate race. In the OP I explained how I'm using it for the sake of thread clarity. 

The real solution? The devs come up with a singular word for their race that is not synonymous with a religion capable of being adopted by different races. Because whenever I use the term "Qunari" LI, too many BSN members tell me, "Why not romance a human Qunari?", ergo completely missing the point. It seems the majority of BSN attribute "Qunari" to religion and "Kossith" to race. (Hence, no one is listening to whatever Gaider said, rendering his conclusion irrelevant. Should he give a unique name to the race, itself, that would solve everything.)

So I'm sticking with said vernacular in order to maintain cognizance. :::shrug:::

Modifié par Trista Hawke, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:13 .

#128
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:21

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Trista Hawke wrote...

Well, I don't know what else to tell you. So far the majority of the BSN uses "Kossith" to indicate race. In the OP I explained how I'm using it for the sake of thread clarity. 

The real solution? The devs come up with a singular word for their race that is not synonymous with a religion capable of being adopted by different races. Because whenever I use the term "Qunari" LI, too many BSN members tell me, "Why not romance a human Qunari?", ergo completely missing the point. It seems the majority of BSN attribute "Qunari" to religion and "Kossith" to race. (Hence, no one is listening to whatever Gaider said, rendering his conclusion irrelevant. Should he give a unique name to the race, itself, that would solve everything.)

So I'm sticking with said vernacular in order to maintain cognizance. :::shrug:::

Heh, damned either way. I think the intent is that there's no distinct word, that the whole philosophy is built on concepts that don't sit well. They're supposed to be obtuse.

(As an aside, I learned a little japanese, and their tendency to use the same word for multiple things, with meaning defined by context, is hugely frustrating. They have one word that means both "tortoise" and "turtle". You've no idea how much that bugs me.)

I think that's one of the barriers to this, the more they humanise it (for want of a far better word), make it relatable the weaker it will be as this alien way of thought and an essentially alien threat.

I'm already kind of down with the socialist elements.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:22 .

#129
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:32

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KallianaTabris wrote...
I suppose introducing a Kossith character with any kind of personality would break lore.


Sten has a personality.  I have it straight from the Benn Hassrath's mouth that sarcasm isn't a demand of the Qun. 

@poster above me

Unless you are a biologist, is there that much need to specify between a turtle and a tortoise? :huh:

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:53 .

#130
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:41

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Ziggeh wrote...

Trista Hawke wrote...

Well, I don't know what else to tell you. So far the majority of the BSN uses "Kossith" to indicate race. In the OP I explained how I'm using it for the sake of thread clarity. 

The real solution? The devs come up with a singular word for their race that is not synonymous with a religion capable of being adopted by different races. Because whenever I use the term "Qunari" LI, too many BSN members tell me, "Why not romance a human Qunari?", ergo completely missing the point. It seems the majority of BSN attribute "Qunari" to religion and "Kossith" to race. (Hence, no one is listening to whatever Gaider said, rendering his conclusion irrelevant. Should he give a unique name to the race, itself, that would solve everything.)

So I'm sticking with said vernacular in order to maintain cognizance. :::shrug:::

Heh, damned either way. I think the intent is that there's no distinct word, that the whole philosophy is built on concepts that don't sit well. They're supposed to be obtuse.

(As an aside, I learned a little japanese, and their tendency to use the same word for multiple things, with meaning defined by context, is hugely frustrating. They have one word that means both "tortoise" and "turtle". You've no idea how much that bugs me.)

I think that's one of the barriers to this, the more they humanise it (for want of a far better word), make it relatable the weaker it will be as this alien way of thought and an essentially alien threat.

I'm already kind of down with the socialist elements.

 

It's intriguing that you bring up the socialist elements that are, assumbaly, attributed to the Qunari religion, right? I've mulled over it and wondered how other Kossith subcultures live. Was this race originally very ANTI-socialist, thus spawning the birth of the Qunari religion? Were (Are?) there Kossith subcultures which are more democratic or libertarian in practice? Do they have other religions too - are there Kossith monotheists? Polytheists? 

What attracted them to socialism? I wonder if it was something negative - like a huge civil war, or some kind of sweeping plague or mass devastation that pushed the Kossith race to regroup, splitting off to form the Qun. And as they went along with their newfound "Qunari" religion, at what point did they decide: "We can open this up to other races too."

#131
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:43

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Unless you are a biologist, is there that much need to specify between a turtle and a tortoise? :huh:

They're different species. It's not a semantic distinction. One is aquatic and other would drown if dropped in a lake.

#132
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Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 03:55

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Ziggeh wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Unless you are a biologist, is there that much need to specify between a turtle and a tortoise? :huh:

They're different species. It's not a semantic distinction. One is aquatic and other would drown if dropped in a lake.


I know.  I'm just saying that in common, everyday conversation there's no real reason to need to be that accrurate.  If I say "there's a turtle in the road!  We should move it!" people get what I mean even if it's actually a tortoise.

More or less the same thing with the Qunari/Kossith debate. 

#133
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:00

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Trista Hawke wrote...

It's intriguing that you bring up the socialist elements that are, assumbaly, attributed to the Qunari religion, right? I've mulled over it and wondered how other Kossith subcultures live. Was this race originally very ANTI-socialist, thus spawning the birth of the Qunari religion? Were (Are?) there Kossith subcultures which are more democratic or libertarian in practice? Do they have other religions too - are there Kossith monotheists? Polytheists? 

What attracted them to socialism? I wonder if it was something negative - like a huge civil war, or some kind of sweeping plague or mass devastation that pushed the Kossith race to regroup, splitting off to form the Qun. And as they went along with their newfound "Qunari" religion, at what point did they decide: "We can open this up to other races too."

I sort of assume that the Qun is a formalisation of the way in which the species thinks. That they accept the alien concepts because they have alien brains. That the Kossith was a collection of smaller cohesive "entities" that the Qun tied together into a whole.

Even when they leave the Qun, rather than reject the mindset, they form a new collective or seemingly accept that they are "lost", detached.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 12 juillet 2013 - 04:00 .

#134
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:00

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Unless you are a biologist, is there that much need to specify between a turtle and a tortoise? :huh:

They're different species. It's not a semantic distinction. One is aquatic and other would drown if dropped in a lake.


I know.  I'm just saying that in common, everyday conversation there's no real reason to need to be that accrurate.  If I say "there's a turtle in the road!  We should move it!" people get what I mean even if it's actually a tortoise.

More or less the same thing with the Qunari/Kossith debate. 

 

To completely pose an argument against my own self (I'm the one who started the thread, using "Kossith" to indicate race, just so BSN doesn't get funky on me) once the conversation starts flowing about the Qunari or the Kossith, we get deeper into topics regarding socio-politics and more. The more we pick them apart on the thread, the closer we may become to realizing there is a socio-political difference between Qunari and Kossith and in order to continue the discussion we will eventually have to differentiate between the two. :/

#135
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:08

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Seems pretty straight forward to me. "Qunari" means both big ox-men humanoids and the religion. When you says "Qunari" most people picture "big ox-man dude practitioner of the Qun."

For rarer distinctions of that category we already have established in-game words.

Non ox-man practitioner of the Qun: Viddathari.
Ox-man who doesn't practice the Qun: Tal-Vashoth.

#136
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:15

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I know.  I'm just saying that in common, everyday conversation there's no real reason to need to be that accrurate.  If I say "there's a turtle in the road!  We should move it!" people get what I mean even if it's actually a tortoise.

More or less the same thing with the Qunari/Kossith debate. 


Those words exist for the purpose of distiguishing the two. For the times when that distinction is important. Like if you're buying a pet and need to know what habitat it will require.

The fact that the word Qunari refers to two things (and Kossith is being used for two) and causes confusion sort of illustrates my point.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 12 juillet 2013 - 04:15 .

#137
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Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:36

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Ziggeh wrote...
Those words exist for the purpose of distiguishing the two. For the times when that distinction is important. Like if you're buying a pet and need to know what habitat it will require.

The fact that the word Qunari refers to two things (and Kossith is being used for two) and causes confusion sort of illustrates my point.


Except in this case the two words in question are more like the words"Gaul" and "France" from what David Gaider said.

For the record, I don't really care if people feel more accurate saying "Kossith."   I'm just saying I don't think the devs, or Gaider, or the fans or anybody needs to establish some hard list of definitions in order to talk about Qunari. If for whatever reason there is some confusion and 99% of the time there's not, one can just specify "the big guys with horns."  Secondly, from a practical standpoint, it's going to be impossible to get everybody to agree what the "right" words are. 

#138
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:52

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Seems pretty straight forward to me. "Qunari" means both big ox-men humanoids and the religion. When you says "Qunari" most people picture "big ox-man dude practitioner of the Qun."

For rarer distinctions of that category we already have established in-game words.

Non ox-man practitioner of the Qun: Viddathari.
Ox-man who doesn't practice the Qun: Tal-Vashoth.


I strongly feel that more BSN folks should know this. Alas there will always be confusion. :/


Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
Those words exist for the purpose of distiguishing the two. For the times when that distinction is important. Like if you're buying a pet and need to know what habitat it will require.

The fact that the word Qunari refers to two things (and Kossith is being used for two) and causes confusion sort of illustrates my point.


Except in this case the two words in question are more like the words"Gaul" and "France" from what David Gaider said.

For the record, I don't really care if people feel more accurate saying "Kossith."   I'm just saying I don't think the devs, or Gaider, or the fans or anybody needs to establish some hard list of definitions in order to talk about Qunari. If for whatever reason there is some confusion and 99% of the time there's not, one can just specify "the big guys with horns."  Secondly, from a practical standpoint, it's going to be impossible to get everybody to agree what the "right" words are. 

 

I would go completely by the book if I could. In fact, I want to. Badly. 

Instead, I'm compelled to go with the "flow of traffic" so to speak. As I explained a few posts above, it is incredibly annoying to say, "Why can't we romance a Qunari LI? Why is that a horn fetish?" only for an onslaught of BSN repliers to say, "Horn fetish? What? Qunari are elves/humans too!" - derailing the subject.

And, despite any disclaimer in my OP about the thread being specifically targeted at Ox-men, people come traipsing into the thread and assume I'm referring to solely the Qunari religion, rendering the topic of race irrelevant. They turn it into a Qun religion thread, when it's a thread about the literal Ox-men. And after so many replies involving my having to explain, "No... I'm talking about the big horned grey men who may or may not be followers of the Qun..." I get a resounding, "OH well sorry but you need to refer to them as Kossith!"

It's very frustrating.

 :crying:

Modifié par Trista Hawke, 12 juillet 2013 - 04:54 .

#139
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 04:59

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Except in this case the two words in question are more like the words"Gaul" and "France" from what David Gaider said.

That's a problem of two words for the one thing, like turtle and chelonian.

#140
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:01

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^^ I would think the most obvious comparison would be the word "Jew/Jewish." It's an ethnoreligious label. Not that complicated.

Trista Hawke wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Seems pretty straight forward to me. "Qunari" means both big ox-men humanoids and the religion. When you says "Qunari" most people picture "big ox-man dude practitioner of the Qun."

For rarer distinctions of that category we already have established in-game words.

Non ox-man practitioner of the Qun: Viddathari.
Ox-man who doesn't practice the Qun: Tal-Vashoth.


I strongly feel that more BSN folks should know this. Alas there will always be confusion. :/

Yes, with the caveat that those ox-men who don't practice the Qun, while technically Tal-Vashoth, can still be referred to as qunari in terms of their race. Perhaps they or followers of the Qun or both would scoff at the label being applied to them as such, but as far as I can tell Tal-Vashoth is not a comparable racial term. And I wouldn't buy for a second that people with a rigid breeding program like the Qunari don't acknowledge "races" as exaggerated as qunari, elf, human etc.

Modifié par Filament, 12 juillet 2013 - 05:01 .

#141
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Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:07

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Ziggeh wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Except in this case the two words in question are more like the words"Gaul" and "France" from what David Gaider said.

That's a problem of two words for the one thing, like turtle and chelonian.


Okay, this is totally OT but "Gaul" and "France" are not the same thing.  There's major differences in borders, languages, time periods, and probably some noteable ones in ethnicity as well. 

Actually on topic, I'd like the know what "Kossith" actually is insofar as what the Qunari were like before the Qun.  What was their ancient society like?  This is a facet I'd be extremely interested in seeing explored.

Another interesting facet for me is Qunari tech.  Given the Qun's major suspicion and suppresion of magic, a lot of focus has been placed on technology and from what we know craftsman are female.  I'd assume inventors and scientists fall into that category as well.  Does this mean the Qunari have no male scientists/inventors?  If you were a smart dude who didn't want to beat things with a warhammer and wanted to actually *make* things, it seems like a good reason to become a Tal-Vashoth.  Some scenario like that would be really interesting to me.  

 

#142
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:14

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Okay, this is totally OT but "Gaul" and "France" are not the same thing.  There's major differences in borders, languages, time periods, and probably some noteable ones in ethnicity as well.

Err...yeah, but I thought your point was that the distinction between turtle and tortoise was meaningless? I'm confused as to what this conversation is about.

#143
sandalisthemaker
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:24

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...


Actually on topic, I'd like the know what "Kossith" actually is insofar as what the Qunari were like before the Qun.  What was their ancient society like?  This is a facet I'd be extremely interested in seeing explored.

Another interesting facet for me is Qunari tech.  Given the Qun's major suspicion and suppresion of magic, a lot of focus has been placed on technology and from what we know craftsman are female.  I'd assume inventors and scientists fall into that category as well.  Does this mean the Qunari have no male scientists/inventors?  If you were a smart dude who didn't want to beat things with a warhammer and wanted to actually *make* things, it seems like a good reason to become a Tal-Vashoth.  Some scenario like that would be really interesting to me.  

 


Kossith once had animist beliefs according to World of Thedas, so they probably believed in animal/nature spirits, something akin to shamanism. How ironic would it be if kossith mages were once revered in a bygone time. 

In regards to the bolded, the Qunari gender roles/restrictions irks me to no end. Their belief that women can never be as good as men at X , or men can never be as good as women at Y is one of the aspects of the Qun that bothers me the most.

OP, since you seem to be changing the title of your thread alot, I think you should rename it "Male Tal-Vashoth LI" because, **** the Qun. :lol:

#144
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:31

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sandalisthemaker wrote...

In regards to the bolded, the Qunari gender roles/restrictions irks me to no end. Their belief that women can never be as good as men at X , or men can never be as good as women at Y is one of the aspects of the Qun that bothers me the most.

We don't really know if it's a belief. They seem wicked keen on efficiency, and such a belief would be inefficient if untrue. There's a reasonable chance there species just works that way.

#145
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Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:33

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Ziggeh wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Okay, this is totally OT but "Gaul" and "France" are not the same thing.  There's major differences in borders, languages, time periods, and probably some noteable ones in ethnicity as well.

Err...yeah, but I thought your point was that the distinction between turtle and tortoise was meaningless? I'm confused as to what this conversation is about.


My point wasn't that the distinction was meaningless.  My point was that there was no need for that level of accuracy except in highly specific circumstances.

In our case, not only is such accuracy not really neccesary, it's not even possible because "kossith" doesn't apparently have the neat tidy biological meaning that people want it to have.  The word "Kossith" is just as muddy as the word Qunari.  It's some vague archaic cultural word.  It would be like calling modern French people "Gaulish" because "French" fails to specify if they are native born French people, French people who moved to other countries, or newcomers to France who have earned their citizenship.  However, "Gaulish" not only has no modern relevance, it has just as much cultural/ethnic/linguistic/religious baggage as "French."

"Qunari" works as a biological word because apparently the vast majority of ox-men are in the Qun.  Kossith is also more obscure and confusing to non lore junkies.  Bioware providing yet another word that means "the biological race of ox-men" is probably just going to cause more confusion at this point.  

#146
sandalisthemaker
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:36

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Ziggeh wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

In regards to the bolded, the Qunari gender roles/restrictions irks me to no end. Their belief that women can never be as good as men at X , or men can never be as good as women at Y is one of the aspects of the Qun that bothers me the most.

We don't really know if it's a belief. They seem wicked keen on efficiency, and such a belief would be inefficient if untrue. There's a reasonable chance there species just works that way.


I hope not. The Qun strikes me more as brainwashing/conditioning than anything else. 

#147
Angrywolves
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:39

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Regardless of all the bickering going on, Mr Gaider has albeit it somewhat nebulously implied there won't be any Qunari aka ox head or Tal Vashoth aka ox head li in DAI.

#148
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:47

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sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

In regards to the bolded, the Qunari gender roles/restrictions irks me to no end. Their belief that women can never be as good as men at X , or men can never be as good as women at Y is one of the aspects of the Qun that bothers me the most.

We don't really know if it's a belief. They seem wicked keen on efficiency, and such a belief would be inefficient if untrue. There's a reasonable chance there species just works that way.


I hope not. The Qun strikes me more as brainwashing/conditioning than anything else. 

Yea, and I think it would kind of undermine the exploration of the plausibility of such a belief system that is what makes the qunari one of the more interesting/original aspects of DA, by making it just an indulgence in author fiat, "fantasy brains did it."

#149
Ziggeh
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:48

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sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

We don't really know if it's a belief. They seem wicked keen on efficiency, and such a belief would be inefficient if untrue. There's a reasonable chance there species just works that way.


I hope not. The Qun strikes me more as brainwashing/conditioning than anything else.

Oh holy Jesus. I misused "there" in a thread in which I complained about it. Hoisted by my own picard.

#150
sandalisthemaker
Posté 12 juillet 2013 - 05:51

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Ziggeh wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

We don't really know if it's a belief. They seem wicked keen on efficiency, and such a belief would be inefficient if untrue. There's a reasonable chance there species just works that way.


I hope not. The Qun strikes me more as brainwashing/conditioning than anything else.

Oh holy Jesus. I misused "there" in a thread in which I complained about it. Hoisted by my own picard.


:mellow:
I think you may want to have your compulsion checked out. :lol:
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