149 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

Class design is done by different people, not the writers. As far as I'm concerned this is a writing issue, and not a class design issue. Whether the class is fun to play is subjective and irrelevant to my purpose, which is that the writers write plots and such that don't shunt the warriors and rogues off to the side because the mages are more important to the story.

The best example I can give is DAO. Obviously Broken Circle focused on the mages, but your reason for going there was to call in your treaty obligation. The rest of the game really had nothing to do with mages or templars, and so all three classes were presented as equal. Even a Warden PC who was a mage was regarded as a Warden first, and a mage second, the same goes for any of the other origin backgrounds.

That's the last I have to say about it. This has gone far off the topic of the merits of the PC having access to the blood magic spec, which I already responded to.

Kuroi Kishin wrote...

Why not?

Because blood magic is "iconic", since Bioware made it so, means i'm stuck with one out of three specs beeing a blood mage? And the other being a spirit healer?

So what is left is one specialization for me?

I'm hoping they will keep something different like force mage as an alternative for those who don't like blood magic and have no desire to heal. I think both of those have heavy RP implications in choosing to take them, it would be nice to have something that is sort of neutral.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 09 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[Tenshi]

would be good if they removed it as class.. it makes no sense most of the time anyway..

Modifié par xxx2emo4Uxxx, 09 juillet 2013 - 01:19 .

[Warden Inquisitor]

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Kuroi Kishin wrote...

Why not?

Because blood magic is "iconic", since Bioware made it so, means i'm stuck with one out of three specs beeing a blood mage? And the other being a spirit healer?

So what is left is one specialization for me?

They focus too much on this templar vs mage thing, mages turning to blood magic all the time as a result, and it is tiring.

On DA2 we had the same Blood mage, same spirit healer, and the force mage, which as far as concept goes, is far behind a shapeshifter or an arcane warrior. The Druid-like mage, and the "Gish", are much more iconic for fantasy lovers than force mage.

So, all in all, if they remove blood mage, tough luck, deal with it, like we did when they removed Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter. I would not mind, but they're not going to do it. They chained themselves with this spec, so rest assured, you'll play your Blood Mage.

P.S. Ditch the Spirit Healer and bring a Cleric-like, healer in plate.

Or, you know, Bioware could just add more specs instead of decreasing/replacing them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

[Mornmagor]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Kuroi Kishin wrote...

Why not?

Because blood magic is "iconic", since Bioware made it so, means i'm stuck with one out of three specs beeing a blood mage? And the other being a spirit healer?

So what is left is one specialization for me?

They focus too much on this templar vs mage thing, mages turning to blood magic all the time as a result, and it is tiring.

On DA2 we had the same Blood mage, same spirit healer, and the force mage, which as far as concept goes, is far behind a shapeshifter or an arcane warrior. The Druid-like mage, and the "Gish", are much more iconic for fantasy lovers than force mage.

So, all in all, if they remove blood mage, tough luck, deal with it, like we did when they removed Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter. I would not mind, but they're not going to do it. They chained themselves with this spec, so rest assured, you'll play your Blood Mage.

P.S. Ditch the Spirit Healer and bring a Cleric-like, healer in plate.

Or, you know, Bioware could just add more specs instead of decreasing/replacing them.

I know, i know, but based on DA2 experience, they have a tendency to decrease them.

Add to that the rumor that they want to "make them matter more", and you realize it's not looking good.

I'm just not optimistic about them giving us enough specializations.

I'm up for a lot of them though.

[thats1evildude]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

Take it to the soapboxes, gentlemen.

Kuroi Kishin wrote...

On DA2 we had the same Blood mage, same spirit healer, and the force mage, which as far as concept goes, is far behind a shapeshifter or an arcane warrior. The Druid-like mage, and the "Gish", are much more iconic for fantasy lovers than force mage.

My point is that maybe we should ditch the problematic specialization and focus on, say, bringing back Shapeshifter and making it decent, or bring in something like Nevarran Death-Mage.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 juillet 2013 - 04:23 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

Not necessarily true. Blood magic is powered by blood and lifeforce, and if you use too much then you can easily kill yourself or others. It's long been seen as an alternative to lyrium seeing as the Chantry controls the supply. Before the Imperium discovered that there are spells that can only be cast through blood magic, it was just seen as simply a source of power like lyrium was.

Blood magic, when not used to control the minds of others, enhances the normal spells power a mage casts, the same as lyrium.

Add in the paranoia of the chantry, who have banned anatomy studies and called it blood magic, and Finn saying that using blood in a ritual, even if the blood isn't powering the spell at all but is merely a component of finding the lights of Arlathan, would be considered blood magic and is a grey area, and suddenly you have things that don't even involve magic being called blood magic because of the use of blood, or at least presence of it.

Like anything, blood magic is open to abuse, and can be more easily abused than many other schools of magic, but which form of death is worse, being burned alive by a fireball or having your blood boil under your skin? Either way is very painful, and both have the same result. And if blood magic is used to amplify the primal schools's spells, it becomes very powerful fireballs and blizzards.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

Not necessarily true. Blood magic is powered by blood and lifeforce, and if you use too much then you can easily kill yourself or others. It's long been seen as an alternative to lyrium seeing as the Chantry controls the supply. Before the Imperium discovered that there are spells that can only be cast through blood magic, it was just seen as simply a source of power like lyrium was.

Blood magic, when not used to control the minds of others, enhances the normal spells power a mage casts, the same as lyrium.

Add in the paranoia of the chantry, who have banned anatomy studies and called it blood magic, and Finn saying that using blood in a ritual, even if the blood isn't powering the spell at all but is merely a component of finding the lights of Arlathan, would be considered blood magic and is a grey area, and suddenly you have things that don't even involve magic being called blood magic because of the use of blood, or at least presence of it.

Like anything, blood magic is open to abuse, and can be more easily abused than many other schools of magic, but which form of death is worse, being burned alive by a fireball or having your blood boil under your skin? Either way is very painful, and both have the same result. And if blood magic is used to amplify the primal schools's spells, it becomes very powerful fireballs and blizzards.

I was talking about the school of blood magic, and this school has been specifically stated as being empowered by death and destruction. There is no denying it. You can then argue that you don't consider that "dark magic", which is fine. I am merely saying, that there can certainly be made a case that there exist such a thing as "dark magic" in Thedas.

[berelinde]

thats1evildude wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

Take it to the soapboxes, gentlemen.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I wouldn't mind replacing blood magic as a PC specialization with a different type.  I never really gave Shapeshifter a chance so I can't really say what needs to improve to make it viable, but I could see it being fun from a roleplaying perspective... except for the cutscenes that often follow combat. I'm having a hard time imagining carrying on a conversation as a giant spider, but it would be really, really annoying if they deactivated the sustained mode for the cutscene and the conversation ended with combat while the spell was still in cooldown.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Warden Inquisitor wrote...

There is no such thing as Good or Evil magic. Magic is magic. Blood magic is magic. A tool that serves man.

Considering that magic is powered by mana and lyrium, and blood magic is powered by death and destruction, a case can certainly be made that there is such a thing as "Dark Magic" in Thedas..

Not necessarily true. Blood magic is powered by blood and lifeforce, and if you use too much then you can easily kill yourself or others. It's long been seen as an alternative to lyrium seeing as the Chantry controls the supply. Before the Imperium discovered that there are spells that can only be cast through blood magic, it was just seen as simply a source of power like lyrium was.

Blood magic, when not used to control the minds of others, enhances the normal spells power a mage casts, the same as lyrium.

Add in the paranoia of the chantry, who have banned anatomy studies and called it blood magic, and Finn saying that using blood in a ritual, even if the blood isn't powering the spell at all but is merely a component of finding the lights of Arlathan, would be considered blood magic and is a grey area, and suddenly you have things that don't even involve magic being called blood magic because of the use of blood, or at least presence of it.

Like anything, blood magic is open to abuse, and can be more easily abused than many other schools of magic, but which form of death is worse, being burned alive by a fireball or having your blood boil under your skin? Either way is very painful, and both have the same result. And if blood magic is used to amplify the primal schools's spells, it becomes very powerful fireballs and blizzards.

I was talking about the school of blood magic, and this school has been specifically stated as being empowered by death and destruction. There is no denying it. You can then argue that you don't consider that "dark magic", which is fine. I am merely saying, that there can certainly be made a case that there exist such a thing as "dark magic" in Thedas.

A case can be made for anything. Some will call blood magic itself a tool, and some will say it is evil and you can only learn it from demons (that is still up to debate.) Some will say that one doesn't need to be a mage to engage in behavior or rituals just as destructive as blood magic (Reaver) (Assassins [not a school or blood magic ritual, but still results in a great deal of death])

I agree that blood magic can be seen as dark, especially by those who misuse it. But if you used the school itsel to amplify healing magic, a case could easily be made that blood magic is merely a tool.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

My point is that maybe we should ditch the problematic specialization and focus on, say, bringing back Shapeshifter and making it decent, or bring in something like Nevarran Death-Mage.

They're not bringing shapechanger back, since iirc they said they're trying to cut back on mages who can tank, and Death-Mage would almost certainly be a problem in its own right.

[thats1evildude]

Shapeshifters don't necessarily need to be tanks. A giant spider can be a ranged spitter. A swarm of insects can basically function the same as a Horror spell. You just need to build in a few cross-class combos with the specialization (Giant Spider Spit does 10X damage to DISORIENTED enemies, for instance).

As for Nevarran necromancy, there doesn't seem to be as strong a bias against it. The Chantry has never declared an Exalted March against Nevarra because they like to mummify corpses.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

Shapeshifters don't necessarily need to be tanks. A giant spider can be a ranged spitter. A swarm of insects can basically function the same as a Horror spell. You just need to build in a few cross-class combos with the specialization (Giant Spider Spit does 10X damage to DISORIENTED enemies, for instance).

Noted, but I don't think they're going to do that.

As for Nevarran necromancy, there doesn't seem to be as strong a bias against it. The Chantry has never declared an Exalted March against Nevarra because they like to mummify corpses.

Okay, now picture someone using attacks derived from those spells in public, in front of the uneducated and occasionally the moronic. The fact that the magic involved is technically legal would complicate the issue, but would not do much to make it look less problematic.

[iOnlySignIn]

Let's remove every specialization and every ability.

Because it's difficult.

[thats1evildude]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, now picture someone using attacks derived from those spells in public, in front of the uneducated and occasionally the moronic. The fact that the magic involved is technically legal would complicate the issue, but would not do much to make it look less problematic.

My perception of the ignorant citizenry in Thedas is that they would take a "burn the witch!" tact to any use of magic if they could, whether or not the mage is throwing around fireballs or … doing whatever Nevarran death magic involves. (I envision standard necromancy stuff: draining HP, having corpses pull opponents underground, etc.) Which is partly why the Circle system exists: to protect mages from people as well as to protect people from mages.

The problem is that the use of blood magic specifically carries a death penalty. I can imagine some unwashed idiot shouting "Hang 'im!" at a mage regardless of whether they're a spirit healer, shapeshifter or maleficar, but I can't imagine a Chantry/qunari zealot marching rank and file along with a blood mage as opposed to some other mage whose flavour of spells is just tinted a bit dark.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 juillet 2013 - 07:02 .

[Hellion Rex]

@dragonflight288 preach, Father Dragonflight, preach!!

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

@dragonflight288 preach, Father Dragonflight, preach!!

[Rolling Flame]

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

[dragonflight288]

Rolling Flame wrote...

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

Probably about as easily as the exotic wonder of the east could mind-control Hawke, or Uldred controlling the mages in Broken Circle (after torturing them for weeks.)

I guess it would depend on a matter of will and power.

[KainD]

thats1evildude wrote...

But at some point you're going to come into contact with someone who is allied with the Chantry or believe in the Maker. For instance, like Cassandra or Cullen. So unless all those people are automatically your enemies, it strains belief that those people might still be willing to work with you.

Well good, I don't like Cullen or Cassandra either and don't want to have them in my party or work with them.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

Probably about as easily as the exotic wonder of the east could mind-control Hawke, or Uldred controlling the mages in Broken Circle (after torturing them for weeks.)

I guess it would depend on a matter of will and power.

Not a bad idea, if handled correctly. Jade Empire's final chapter allowed the Spirit Monk to do just this to all companions who disagreed with him by binding them to his will. It was pretty sweet, actually.

[Fetunche]

If they take away blood magic I want Arcane warrior back.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

Probably about as easily as the exotic wonder of the east could mind-control Hawke, or Uldred controlling the mages in Broken Circle (after torturing them for weeks.)

I guess it would depend on a matter of will and power.

Uldred was possessed. The exotic wonder had demonic assistance thanks to Tarohne.

Knowing blood magic doesn't mean you'll have access to all the legendary blood magic powers without a little help, which is why I don't consider the spec to be problematic.  The problem is that people read about all the awesome abilities blood mages are rumoured to possess (even though the number of mages with these abilities that we've seen is very small) and assume the PC should have access to them.

[dragonflight288]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

Probably about as easily as the exotic wonder of the east could mind-control Hawke, or Uldred controlling the mages in Broken Circle (after torturing them for weeks.)

I guess it would depend on a matter of will and power.

Uldred was possessed. The exotic wonder had demonic assistance thanks to Tarohne.

Knowing blood magic doesn't mean you'll have access to all the legendary blood magic powers without a little help, which is why I don't consider the spec to be problematic.  The problem is that people read about all the awesome abilities blood mages are rumoured to possess (even though the number of mages with these abilities that we've seen is very small) and assume the PC should have access to them.

From my understanding of Inquisition, the player will only be able to get one spec this time around, and will have to quest to get it. I think since we're only focusin on one specialization, that it's possible that the player can have all the awesome abilities, but it should take effort to get those abilities.