149 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightdragon8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rolling Flame wrote...

Couldn't you just mind control your "companions" into agreeing with you, if you do choose to play as a Blood Mage?

Probably about as easily as the exotic wonder of the east could mind-control Hawke, or Uldred controlling the mages in Broken Circle (after torturing them for weeks.)

I guess it would depend on a matter of will and power.

Uldred was possessed. The exotic wonder had demonic assistance thanks to Tarohne.

Knowing blood magic doesn't mean you'll have access to all the legendary blood magic powers without a little help, which is why I don't consider the spec to be problematic.  The problem is that people read about all the awesome abilities blood mages are rumoured to possess (even though the number of mages with these abilities that we've seen is very small) and assume the PC should have access to them.

From my understanding of Inquisition, the player will only be able to get one spec this time around, and will have to quest to get it. I think since we're only focusin on one specialization, that it's possible that the player can have all the awesome abilities, but it should take effort to get those abilities.

if they are going to make us quest for the spec... the specs will need to be powerful no matter the spec... .

for me it will be a reward vs labor thing. I mean if ai have to grind out something i better get something good in return (which never happens in MMOs like that WoW, Pig Liver quest... (god that was annoying, seriously needed to get CDC out cause 90% of the pigs didn't have a liver...)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

From my understanding of Inquisition, the player will only be able to get one spec this time around, and will have to quest to get it. I think since we're only focusin on one specialization, that it's possible that the player can have all the awesome abilities, but it should take effort to get those abilities.

But the 'awesome abilities' like dream walking and mind control would potentially break the game. If you suddenly give a player access to a certain ability, they're going to want to know why they can't always use it, so either it has to be restricted for a logical reason or completely inaccessible.

[dragonflight288]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

From my understanding of Inquisition, the player will only be able to get one spec this time around, and will have to quest to get it. I think since we're only focusin on one specialization, that it's possible that the player can have all the awesome abilities, but it should take effort to get those abilities.

But the 'awesome abilities' like dream walking and mind control would potentially break the game. If you suddenly give a player access to a certain ability, they're going to want to know why they can't always use it, so either it has to be restricted for a logical reason or completely inaccessible.

Dream Walking is something limited to Somniari, from what I've seen in-game. I have yet to see a blood mage in-game use it like Fenriel could.

I think the mind control can be like Jedi Force-Persuasion, depending on power and will, but when it fails, has far more drastic consequences because of the negative connotations that come with blood magic.

Whatever abiliites a blood mage may have, however, should be balanced out by the other specs, whatever they may be as well.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dream Walking is something limited to Somniari, from what I've seen in-game. I have yet to see a blood mage in-game use it like Fenriel could.

We didn't see Feynriel enter someone else's dreams, which is what blood magic dreamwalking refers to. 

I think the mind control can be like Jedi Force-Persuasion, depending on power and will, but when it fails, has far more drastic consequences because of the negative connotations that come with blood magic.

If could be like that, though then you'd expect the devs to code this option into every single dialogue where the NPC disagrees with you. That's a lot of extra coding and voice acting just for the blood mage spec, no?

Whatever abiliites a blood mage may have, however, should be balanced out by the other specs, whatever they may be as well.

Of course, but it's not about balance. It'd about not having abilities that can break the plot, much less our suspension of disbelief. It was already strange enough that a blood mage PC could waltz unchallenged through Kirkwall.

[dragonflight288]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dream Walking is something limited to Somniari, from what I've seen in-game. I have yet to see a blood mage in-game use it like Fenriel could.

We didn't see Feynriel enter someone else's dreams, which is what blood magic dreamwalking refers to.

So the lady who he saved from being raped had a dream about him, and couldn't wait to get home to fall asleep again so she could continue to dream about him, or hope he visited her in her dream?

That's what I was referring to.

I think the mind control can be like Jedi Force-Persuasion, depending on power and will, but when it fails, has far more drastic consequences because of the negative connotations that come with blood magic.

If could be like that, though then you'd expect the devs to code this option into every single dialogue where the NPC disagrees with you. That's a lot of extra coding and voice acting just for the blood mage spec, no?

Whatever abiliites a blood mage may have, however, should be balanced out by the other specs, whatever they may be as well.

Of course, but it's not about balance. It'd about not having abilities that can break the plot, much less our suspension of disbelief. It was already strange enough that a blood mage PC could waltz unchallenged through Kirkwall.

Now we come into a tricky issue, the fine line and the balance bewteen game-play and lore. DA2, we could easily say the two-handed warrior is unbelievable seeing as he jumps like 15 feet in the air at times, which is humanly impossible, but it does create a dramatic death on-screen, or the fact that Hawke and the Warden could beat abominations when all the lore leading up to those fights suggests abominations are far more powerful at times than the ones we face, that or the templars are simply not equipped to the task.

There's always going to be the line between gameplay and how reality is perceived, and the game developers can't please everyone.

As a side note, I think it would be cool if those issues could be addressed, and like you said, have people react if our pc is a blood mage, but at the same time, there's far more that makes or breaks a game than believability of what's happening on-screen.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dream Walking is something limited to Somniari, from what I've seen in-game. I have yet to see a blood mage in-game use it like Fenriel could.

We didn't see Feynriel enter someone else's dreams, which is what blood magic dreamwalking refers to.

So the lady who he saved from being raped had a dream about him, and couldn't wait to get home to fall asleep again so she could continue to dream about him, or hope he visited her in her dream?

That's what I was referring to.

I don't remember this scene. Do you have a youtube link?

Now we come into a tricky issue, the fine line and the balance bewteen game-play and lore. DA2, we could easily say the two-handed warrior is unbelievable seeing as he jumps like 15 feet in the air at times, which is humanly impossible, but it does create a dramatic death on-screen, or the fact that Hawke and the Warden could beat abominations when all the lore leading up to those fights suggests abominations are far more powerful at times than the ones we face, that or the templars are simply not equipped to the task.

The disconnect between the lore of how tough enemies should be according to lore and how tough they actually are in combat against your PC is a separate issue, as is realism vs style. Besides, I don't imagine Mind Control or Dreamwalk abilities would be combat abilities.

As a side note, I think it would be cool if those issues could be addressed, and like you said, have people react if our pc is a blood mage, but at the same time, there's far more that makes or breaks a game than believability of what's happening on-screen.

Yes there is, such as allowing the PC to mind control Loghain into ending the civil war.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 juillet 2013 - 02:35 .

[dragonflight288]

I don't remember this scene. Do you have a youtube link?

I don't have a youtube link as I couldn't find one, but here's the wiki link to the exact quest I'm referring to.

http://dragonage.wik...Needs_Rescuing?

The disconnect between the lore of how tough enemies should be according to lore and how tough they actually are in combat against your PC is a separate issue, as is realism vs style. Besides, I don't imagine Mind Control or Dreamwalk abilities would be combat abilities.

I don't imagine either, but it could be a possible questline in a blood-mage path, or I may be completely wrong.

I just think it would be interesting to have quests in the game that follow the specializations, and test how far we the gamers are willing to go down that path, and then we see the consequences from it.

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: I think they should force blood mage characters to become terribly scarred.

Players are vain (and far more likely, self-conscious) - FAR fewer would be able to be ugly for power - but cut themselves or sacrifice others? Totally doable for the "morality" of many gamers.

You gotta punch players where it hurts them - to get a proper reaction.

Otherwise - they'll excuse any o'le psychotic tendency away.

[Hellion Rex]

@Medhia Nox that's a good idea, actually I kind of like that concept. Similar to making the Templar specialization have a lyrium addiction.

[thats1evildude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dream Walking is something limited to Somniari, from what I've seen in-game. I have yet to see a blood mage in-game use it like Fenriel could.

Avernus did use blood magic to shape the dreams of Levi Dryden as a means of coaxing him to search out Warden's Keep. So that is a thing blood mages can do.

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think the mind control can be like Jedi Force-Persuasion, depending on power and will, but when it fails, has far more drastic consequences because of the negative connotations that come with blood magic.

Whatever abiliites a blood mage may have, however, should be balanced out by the other specs, whatever they may be as well.

The problem here is that blood magic is a specialization with a lot of out-of-combat possible uses.

Templar? Its abilities are combat-only. Reaver? Combat only. Assassin? Combat-only. Duelist? Combat-only. Force mage? Combat-only. Spirit Healer? Eh, some potential for out-of-combat use, but mostly combat-only.

Blood mage? Craploads of out-of-combat utility. Why doesn't a blood mage PC use his powers to, as Shadow of the Light Dragon pointed, control Loghain's mind? Why not end the succession crisis in Orzammar by having Harrowmont or Bhelen slit his own throat?

And unlike blood magic, those other specializations doesn't carry an automatic death penalty.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 juillet 2013 - 07:19 .

[Plaintiff]

Well I've never had a good reason to spec Blood Magic yet, apart from the passive bonuses, so I wouldn't really care if the option was removed.

That said, I expect other people would be pissed, and I don't think that lore should dictate every single aspect of gameplay. According to "lore", warriors shouldn't be able to knock people over by shouting, and non-mages shouldn't be able to summon animals out of thin air, or call down a hail of arrows. But those things still occur.

[Fredward]

I'm greedy so I'd rather have the bloodmage spec with no recognition than not have it cuz pragmatic. Of course I wouldn't need much recognition. Just the occasional suggestive eyebrow wiggle when someone talks about how evil bloodmages cannot be trusted.

[Maria Caliban]

Plaintiff wrote...

According to "lore", warriors shouldn't be able to knock people over by shouting, and non-mages shouldn't be able to summon animals out of thin air, or call down a hail of arrows. But those things still occur.

Are we sure about that?

I've heard devs talk about the rogue's 'teleporting' as being an abstraction of moving fast, but that was because it broke one of the rules of the setting.

The Reaver's Devour lets my non-mage absorb the lingering life essence of corpses on the battlefield to regain health. Why can my Champion's War Cry literally knock people down?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 juillet 2013 - 08:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

If you remove Blood Magic, all those who want to "stick it to the Chantry and templars" would get their panties in a twist.


Alas, I see it as a VERY problematic specialization.
I don't see how oyu cna properly balance it or integreate it into the story.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 juillet 2013 - 10:25 .

[Hellion Rex]

@Lotion Soronnar I could say the same of Templar supporters if their Templar specialization was taken away as well. Although I cannot see them getting rid of either spec to be honest Lotion.

[Plaintiff]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

According to "lore", warriors shouldn't be able to knock people over by shouting, and non-mages shouldn't be able to summon animals out of thin air, or call down a hail of arrows. But those things still occur.

Are we sure about that?

I've heard devs talk about the rogue's 'teleporting' as being an abstraction of moving fast, but that was because it broke one of the rules of the setting.

The Reaver's Devour lets my non-mage absorb the lingering life essence of corpses on the battlefield to regain health. Why can my Champion's War Cry literally knock people down?

Pretty sure. I know combat is just an an abstract representation of events, but I can't begin to guess what summoning a bear in the Deep Roads is supposed to be an abstract of.

My understanding of Reavers was that drinking dragon blood gave them some measure of powers similar to that of a blood mage. If Bioware has an explanation in the lore for why CHampions have the powers that they have, then I'd love to hear it.

But I don't need an in-lore explanation for any particular game mechanic. I'm perfectly okay with thngs being included for the sake of Rule of Cool.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar I could say the same of Templar supporters if their Templar specialization was taken away as well. Although I cannot see them getting rid of either spec to be honest Lotion.

The Templar spec doesn't have NEARLY the same amount of problems.

Altough I do agree that such specs shouldn't be something that one just "picks up". They should be more like Origins and integrated into the story.

Problems:
Templar spec - lyrium addiction problem
Blood Magic - everything about it

[nightscrawl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alas, I see it as a VERY problematic specialization.
I don't see how oyu cna properly balance it or integreate it into the story.

Well one way would be to have some sort of minor mind control or suggestion be used as another way to solve a quest problem. I can see it used similarly to the Persuade option in DAO. If you aren't a blood mage, don't have one in the party, or simply choose to not use it, there would be other avenues of solving the quest.

Also, if there is some quest where you are dealing with a demon, like Lady Harimann's Desire, or Desire Kitty, that demon should acknowledge that you are a blood mage and that you might be willing to deal because of it.

As I see it, these kinds of extras are relatively minor, but when added up over the course of a game it feels like a nice way to integrate a specialization without feeling the need to have some involved plot dealing with it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar I could say the same of Templar supporters if their Templar specialization was taken away as well. Although I cannot see them getting rid of either spec to be honest Lotion.

I wouldn't mind too much if they removed either or both specializations. It would perhaps even allow the writers to better explore Blood Magic, since the PC would no longer be able to really relate to it.

However, the Templar specialization does hold the tactical value of being the only anti-mage spec, whereas Blood Magic, holds no real tactical value, and could easily be removed. The Templar spec would ahve to be replaced by an alternative anti-mage spec, for gameplay reasons.

[Hellion Rex]

@EmperorSahlertz I understand your point, although couldn't Blood Magic be regarded as the "epitome" of magic? Anyways, I just want to see evolution of blood magic beyond the stereotypical mind control stuff. I would love to see blood magic heal others, or be used for some new purpose altogether.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz I understand your point, although couldn't Blood Magic be regarded as the "epitome" of magic? Anyways, I just want to see evolution of blood magic beyond the stereotypical mind control stuff. I would love to see blood magic heal others, or be used for some new purpose altogether.

Blood Magic as a school (higher case) probably doesn't have any healing spells, considering that the school is literally powered by death, pain and destruction, the more violent the better. However, blood magic (lower case) can be used to empoer your School of Creation healing spell. Though again, the amount of pain, destruction and death you inflcit to empower the spell, will further increase the power of the healing spell.

I wouldn't exactly call Blood Magic, the "epitome of magic". I'd call it an incredibly selfish, and dangerous tool. And while it holds some storywise relevance, so far the games have failed to portray this relevance in any meaningful way. So unless a huge focus will be on the fact that you have chosen the Blood Mage spec, then it would be rather easy to replace.

[Hellion Rex]

@EmperorSahlertz I'm curious, if you had the choice to replace Boood Magic with another Mage spec, which would you choose?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hard to say really, since we don't know which specs we will get. But from a gameplay perspective there are a few areas the mages would need a specialization for: Crowd Control, Damage, and Healing. Blood Magic I would say fit partially into Crowd Control and Damage categories, with the added gimmick of using health instead of mana. So if we continue on the premise that we might only get to chose between two different specializations this time around, then I would settle for Battle Mage/Force Mage and Spirit Healer.

[thats1evildude]

eluvianix wrote...

I would love to see blood magic heal others, or be used for some new purpose altogether.

The World of Thedas suggests it can be used for healing, if you don't mind trading one life for another.

That's the inherent flaw of blood magic.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:48 .

[Hellion Rex]

thats1evildude wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I would love to see blood magic heal others, or be used for some new purpose altogether.

The World of Thedas suggests it can be used for healing, if you don't mind trading one life for another.

That's the inherent flaw of blood magic.

I agree. It's a magic of balance. The bigger the sacrifice, the more power that's released.