149 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

And if you think that those might be the only ones that could be against/not keen of blood magic, I think you're probably going to be disappointed. Vivienne or the elven mage (expecially if he's the exiled healer) could be against it; don't forget that Anders was against it due his background. Vivienne could be the same.

They might, but I don't see why it'd be a good idea to make them so. Having two companions in opposition to your specialization of all things is a little much already.

I'm not saying that they should disapprove just because you're one (I doubt that spec recognition would go that far). They might disapprove depending on your actions. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Wulfram wrote...

Even a "relatively mild" pro-chantry character should have major issues with blood magic. It's a major taboo that's pretty fundamental to the religion.

This point of view annoys me because it could be applied to anything. Why the hell does Fenris join you if you are a mage? Why does he respect mage hawke but hates Anders and Merrill?

Why can a mage romance him? 

Sometimes even people with strong opinions can put them aside for friendship, can be hypocritical or can just agree to disagree.

I want Blood Magic to have consequences and reactivity but I think some people seem to have a really over the top opinion on what would happen if your PC was a blood mage.

Also I don't want companions like that. I want companions who judge you more on your actions, who can put things aside whilst still having their own opinions. This is what Bioware has always given us.

I don't want a party of closed minded fundamentalists becuase that would cause so many other problems in game. You want companions who will follow you and respect your decisions don't you? 

[Jonatron2010]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
One thing I'd like to note is that this problem is NOT UNIQUE to Blood Mage--people who take the Templar specialization ought to have to consume lyrium regularly and gradually become addicted in order to use their abilities.

To be fair, Alister tells us that Lyrium isn't ultimately required it just makes Templar abilities more effective (though this is never represented in mechanics), just Alister was one of the few Templar trained people running around to spread their secrets. Though Hawke shouldn't be able to pull that out of their butt as they can't ask Alister for training.

[mikeymoonshine]

Jonatron2010 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
One thing I'd like to note is that this problem is NOT UNIQUE to Blood Mage--people who take the Templar specialization ought to have to consume lyrium regularly and gradually become addicted in order to use their abilities.

To be fair, Alister tells us that Lyrium isn't ultimately required it just makes Templar abilities more effective (though this is never represented in mechanics), just Alister was one of the few Templar trained people running around to spread their secrets. Though Hawke shouldn't be able to pull that out of their butt as they can't ask Alister for training.

Exactly, Plus how on earth did Hawke become a Reaver? 

I think in game mechanincs are never truly going to work with the lore. There are all kinds of things mages can do that your PC can't for example so I dunno why it's limited to blood magic in the example. 

[The Elder King]

The devs stated that what Alistair said wasn't true. They might change their minds, but until they said otherwise templars need lyrium for their abilities.
As for how Alistair could use their ability, I think it's related to his blood.
And I agree about PsychoBlonde on how the PC should achieve and mantain their abilities.

[cihimi]

No Blood Magics? Oh noes!

Modifié par cihimi, 11 septembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[The Elder King]

@Mikeymoonshine: DA2 failed (for me anyways) in the specializations' unlocking. I want the Reaver spec to be unlocked by drinking wyvern/dragon's blood, the templar to be unlocked by being thaught by someone (and drinking lyrium). The same for berseker, assassin, duelist, etc.

[Eterna]

Tootles FTW wrote...

It seems inherently counterintuitive to our role as an Inquisitor to be using condemed magic (what with it's ties to the Chantry)...but perhaps the Inquisition is like the X-Force of Dragon Age and they allow illicit magic and likewise morally dubious tactics to justify their ends?  That would be interesting, especially if your use is acknowledged in-game.

Personally, I bleed enough each month.  I don't need to prolong it by having my mage use blood magic. 

This is false. It has been confirmed that we do not need to side with the chantry. You are also assuming that we need to be good. I intend to be an evil Blood Mage, and from what we've heard so far, this seems very plausable. 

[Jonatron2010]

mikeymoonshine wrote...
Exactly, Plus how on earth did Hawke become a Reaver? 
I think in game mechanincs are never truly going to work with the lore. There are all kinds of things mages can do that your PC can't for example so I dunno why it's limited to blood magic in the example. 

Hell, you're right. Had to wiki just to talk about the Templar spec for warriors, not yet played a warrior in DA2, love mages too much. Reaver explictly needs the blood. Though the baby dragons turn up all around the place, it's still a fair bit of handwaving. Zerker is fine though, since that's just getting really angry.

[Wulfram]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

 I want companions who judge you more on your actions

Becoming a blood mage is an action.  An action that Chantry doctrine condemns straightforwardly as "hated by the Maker."

[Eterna]

thats1evildude wrote...


But at some point you're going to come into contact with someone who is allied with the Chantry or believe in the Maker. For instance, like Cassandra or Cullen. So unless all those people are automatically your enemies, it strains belief that those people might still be willing to work with you.

Then you make them work for you. 

Or have you forgottem all the stuff abut seiging keeps? 

[mikeymoonshine]

hhh89 wrote...

@Mikeymoonshine: DA2 failed (for me anyways) in the specializations' unlocking. I want the Reaver spec to be unlocked by drinking wyvern/dragon's blood, the templar to be unlocked by being thaught by someone (and drinking lyrium). The same for berseker, assassin, duelist, etc.

I thought a Lyrium Mechanic could easily have been added in to the game though. Like maybe if you don't drink a lyrium potion once in a while, (like a few days or something) ypour stamina stops regenerating. 

That could represent Lyrium addiction couldn't it? 

As for the other specialisations well I didn't mind so much as you couldn't rule out the idea that Hawke could just have learnt some of these alrady. He could Learn Duelist from Isabella for example as that specialsation  is rare. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Wulfram wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

 I want companions who judge you more on your actions

Becoming a blood mage is an action.  An action that Chantry doctrine condemns straightforwardly as "hated by the Maker."

Yes that's right take a line of my argument out of context and argue with that. Well done :/ 

[DarthLaxian]

hhh89 wrote...

@The Sin: I agree that the Inquisitor should have the option of using every necessary means to solve the Fade tears; that doesn't mean that the companions should approve all of his/her decisions, expecially those who go against their beliefs.

why not, they know what they are signing up for (that alone requires some flexibility of thinking, joining an organisation that might go against all you know and cherish (the chantry being one of those things!)) so making them hate you, distrust you and even leave you by default is bad (!) - make them watch you closely when using it (and take your conduct into account (do you needlessly kill, do you abuse people, do you use threats if you don't have to etc.) - yeah, that's ok (because, if you are say like Merril (who was pretty harmless IMHO and didn't want to rule and/or exploit others) then why should they hate you? - that's like hating someone who wears blue, just because you hate the colour or hating a doctore who does blood-transfusions just because they go against your religion or something...it is retarded and close minded...on the other hand:

i would not want close minded companions around (not even speaking of zealots) - i don't like them anyway!

greetings LAX

[mikeymoonshine]

DarthLaxian wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@The Sin: I agree that the Inquisitor should have the option of using every necessary means to solve the Fade tears; that doesn't mean that the companions should approve all of his/her decisions, expecially those who go against their beliefs.

why not, they know what they are signing up for (that alone requires some flexibility of thinking, joining an organisation that might go against all you know and cherish (the chantry being one of those things!)) so making them hate you, distrust you and even leave you by default is bad (!) - make them watch you closely when using it (and take your conduct into account (do you needlessly kill, do you abuse people, do you use threats if you don't have to etc.) - yeah, that's ok (because, if you are say like Merril (who was pretty harmless IMHO and didn't want to rule and/or exploit others) then why should they hate you? - that's like hating someone who wears blue, just because you hate the colour or hating a doctore who does blood-transfusions just because they go against your religion or something...it is retarded and close minded...on the other hand:

i would not want close minded companions around (not even speaking of zealots) - i don't like them anyway!

greetings LAX

Exactly plus people can have sensibilities that trump those kinds of opinions. Wynne is very anti bloodmagic but if you decide to spare Irving and the other non bloodmages you can say something like "I would rather let bloodmages go free than kill innocents" and she will thank you for making a "rational descision". 

This shows me that Wynne cares more about saving and portecting people over hatred of Blood Magic. 

I think Lelianna is probably the same and even Cassandra. 

[The Elder King]

@Darth Laxian:I never said that companions should hate you, and neither that they should leave by default. I said approve your decisions. If some of your decisions (and I'm not talking only about blood magic)are against what your companions believe or would've done, than they should disapprove, as it was in both previous games.

And about blood magic, it depends on how you use. If you use your own blood to help people, they shouldn't disapprove (well, at least the "mild" ones). If you sacrifice dozens of people for a spell, then they should disapprove.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 septembre 2013 - 05:41 .

[Wulfram]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

 I want companions who judge you more on your actions

Becoming a blood mage is an action.  An action that Chantry doctrine condemns straightforwardly as "hated by the Maker."

Yes that's right take a line of my argument out of context and argue with that. Well done :/ 

The rest of your argument is about things that aren't actions.  It's not relevant to the discussion.  You can't say you want companions who judge you on your actions and then say you don't want them to get upset by you doing something that is profoundly evil according to their faith.

[mikeymoonshine]

Wulfram wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

 I want companions who judge you more on your actions

Becoming a blood mage is an action.  An action that Chantry doctrine condemns straightforwardly as "hated by the Maker."

Yes that's right take a line of my argument out of context and argue with that. Well done :/ 

The rest of your argument is about things that aren't actions.  It's not relevant to the discussion.  You can't say you want companions who judge you on your actions and then say you don't want them to get upset by you doing something that is profoundly evil according to their faith.

I never said that! I simply said your opinion was rather OTT when it came to how people should react.

Yes chosing to use blood magic is an action in the same way everything you do is an action but i really meant actions within the quests and the story. 

I didn't feel like I needed to exsplain that because it's obviously what I meant. A blood mage could still do good things and be a good person and I don't know why Bioware would write companions who's thaught process is "that's against my religion, ATTACK!". It makes no sense for people like that to even join as the Inquisition is a rogue group in oposition to the Chantry. 

[Wulfram]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

I never said that! I simply said your opinion was rather OTT when it came to how people should react.

Yes chosing to use blood magic is an action in the same way everything you do is an action but i really meant actions within the quests and the story.

Choosing to become a blood mage is a huge action with the story.  It's choosing to become something which most people in the world think is a monster worthy of death.

You can't seperate it from the story.  If it happens, it's a fundamental part of that story

I didn't feel like I needed to exsplain that because it's obviously what I meant. A blood mage could still do good things and be a good person and I don't know why Bioware would write companions who's thaught process is "that's against my religion, ATTACK!".

Because that represents the general view of the majority of people in Thedas.  They'll hate and fear you just for being a mage, let alone a blood mage.  It's a huge theme of the games and setting.  Having the companions just give the PC a pass because they do nice things is destructive to the setting.

It makes no sense for people like that to even join as the Inquisition is a rogue group in oposition to the Chantry. 

Well, why pro-chantry people end up in the Inquisition is a question that needs an answer more generally.

And the blood magic taboo isn't just a chantry thing, anyway.  The Dalish freaked out over Merrill's blood magic, the Qunari make a big deal of it too.  Anders/Justice hates it too.

[Taleroth]

Wulfram wrote...

It's choosing to become something which most people in the world think is a monster worthy of death.

That's an exaggeration. Blood Mages are treated as mere criminals, not inhuman monsters.

Jowan was a blood mage and the only thing they were going to do to him was take him to jail, not gut him in public.

[Wulfram]

Taleroth wrote...

That's an exaggeration. Blood Mages are treated as mere criminals, not inhuman monsters.

Jowan was a blood mage and the only thing they were going to do to him was take him to jail, not gut him in public.

They were going to Tranquil him, no?

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 septembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Taleroth]

Wulfram wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

That's an exaggeration. Blood Mages are treated as mere criminals, not inhuman monsters.

Jowan was a blood mage and the only thing they were going to do to him was take him to jail, not gut him in public.

They were going to Tranquil him, no?

Before he escaped, yes. Not sure which of the two they were going to do afterwards. But neither option is treating him as a monster. However distasteful they may be.

[Wulfram]

Taleroth wrote...

 Before he escaped, yes. Not sure which of the two they were going to do afterwards. But neither option is treating him as a monster. However distasteful they may be.

Well, I'd say it's worse.  But OK.

How about Pol's reaction to Merrill?

[mikeymoonshine]

Wulfram wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

 Before he escaped, yes. Not sure which of the two they were going to do afterwards. But neither option is treating him as a monster. However distasteful they may be.

Well, I'd say it's worse.  But OK.

How about Pol's reaction to Merrill?

Pol,s reaction to Merrill wasn't just about her using blood magic, because they already knew she was doing that. It was about him believing the rumours about her (that we never hear) based on her using blood magic. 

Your whole argument is based on over exaduating people in Thedas. 

Oh and I assumed the chantry thing was that because you set up the inquisition you are basically taking power and Authority from the Chantry and they won't like that. This would make you in oposition to them, however a chantry supporting player can probably work with them and gain their support just like you will be able to do with any faction. 

but think about it. Morrigan is a blood mage and people know that and still talk to her, they fear and mistrust her yes but they aren't trying to kill her. 

Flemeth is a blood mage (alegedly) and the Dalish seem to respect her, The Wardens all use Blood Magic and have been Known to use it for all kinds of things in the past. They are mistrusted but it's still worth having them around.