45 réponses à ce sujet

[dragondreamer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I say Casteless have it worse among all of them. Legally they don't even exist, and anyone can literally do anything to them because....they don't exist.

Elven mages have the worst of it on the surface. lol

I dunno, a successful "Noble Hunter" has a chance at the kind of upward mobility that is unheard of for elves.

[MisterJB]

Casteless. Sigrun visited an alienage once, she thought it was "quite nice".

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juillet 2013 - 04:08 .

[Eveangaline]

On the one hand, mages are locked up, and at a certain age have to have a test where failure means death, and just taking a bit too long means death, and too long is left to the arbitration of a group that doesn't like you. The only way to opt out of this is to submit to basically having your soul chopped up.

On the other hand elves don't have magic power, and face systemic oppression with pretty much no way to fight back . A life of poverty and getting constantly screwed by those in charge because those in charge know they can get away with it.

I'd say the ones with the worst lot are elves that are also mages.

[Nefla]

My first and favorite warden was an elf mage lol

[Boycott Bioware]

Abominations, they just have no place in the world, hated, hunted down, killed on sight...and ugly...

[Rolling Flame]

MisterJB wrote...

Casteless. Sigrun visited an alienage once, she thought it was "quite nice".

They aren't looked down on in human lands, though. Of course, getting there seems to be the problem.

[Felya87]

City Elfs have just a parvence of freedom. they can try to improve their life, but usually that end up with the destruction of it all by humans.
Dalish have it better, at least in their clans. but their life is still a hard one, and their freedom is not so much. outside their clan, they are basically alone, and being accepted in another clan is not so easy.
and so is the life of a Dalish mage, since they are, like the city elf mages, taken away from their family to go in other clans where the Keeper doesn't have an apprentice with the gift of magic. but at least they end up having a very important role in the clan.
an Elf mage in the circle can try and end up in position of power (see Orsino), and being first enchanter is quite an important role (at least if the city is not Kirkwall, town of the skizophrenic, with a psico Templar commander and a non-existant Viscount)

but a city Elf what can aspire to? being a servant in a noble human house, hoping their boss don't have a like to rape and kill Elf? we don't see a better position for city elves, maybe a few merchant, but they only work in their alienage.
I think city Elves have it worse, since they can't hope for nothing more than poor and dangerous jobs, or illegal ones, and usually to humans everything is permetted as long as it being made on the elves. (the city elf origin, the serial killer in kirkwall, just to say two example) and usually they aren't well accepted by Dalish too, that call them "flat ears".

[Sable Rhapsody]

Rolling Flame wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Casteless. Sigrun visited an alienage once, she thought it was "quite nice".

They aren't looked down on in human lands, though. Of course, getting there seems to be the problem.

Not to mention finding food, shelter, and work in a very alien place.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd say Viddath-bas have it worst off. But aside from them I'd say Tevinter slaves. Then Castless. Although there are probably lots of individual exceptions in both cases. Castless who travel to the surface I think would count in the group of surface dwarves. Between alienage elves and mages I think again it would depend on each person's unique circumstances.

[Eveangaline]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'd say Viddath-bas have it worst off. But aside from them I'd say Tevinter slaves. Then Castless. Although there are probably lots of individual exceptions in both cases. Castless who travel to the surface I think would count in the group of surface dwarves. Between alienage elves and mages I think again it would depend on each person's unique circumstances.

The qunari mages, the tevinter slaves, and the casteless team up to conquer the world.

[Angrywolves]

Elves have it worst than mages. Mages don't glow in the dark. They can hide their power.
Elves sadly woll always be treated as knife ears.

[Divine Justinia V]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

Elves.

Mages live in a nice, cozy tower and they also have magic powers.

After DA2 I don't think "nice" and "cozy" are the best words to describe the towers. Also, their magic can be stopped in it's track by templars.

There's also the risk of a mage being mad Tranquil which is one of the worst things possible to happen to them (or any person, if it was possible, imo)

Definitely mages have it worse.

[WardenWade]

@dragonflight288
That's a good point, dragonflight.  Casteless have no real options other than noble hunting or the Carta in Dust Town.  They do have options on the surface and, if I recall correctly from the Brosca origin, surfacers see one another as equals and help each other.  That ignores casteless dwarves wanting to continue living in Orzammar, their home, however.

Regarding the OP, mages and city elves, in particular, have many similarities IMO.  Elves in the city are, I gather, expected to go to the alienage the same as mages are normally expected to go to the Circle.  And as others have mentioned, the average elf doesn't have magic or enchantment to barter for their freedom with.  They have nothing anybody wants, in theory, in addition to no one caring what happens to them.  Abuse is as rampant in the alienages as in the Circle, and possibly more so given the Tabris origin.  Purges are also very similar to the ROA.

The Dalish are an option but bribes are necessary to leave the alienage, and living in the forests is not for every city elf...as intra-racial discrimination exists as well.  Likewise, while Tevinter is a nation that exalts magic there is no nation or country that exalts elves, and turning to the Qun may not be an option for an individualism-loving elf (the Arishok seemed to me dismissive of the elven viddathari in DA2, for example, and Sten can be as well).  Lastly, to extrapolate, individual mages have their minds stilled with the Rite of Tranquility as I feel it's arguable that elven culture has also been Tranquilized.  They get it from both human society itself as well as vestigial Chantry teachings (though I personally feel Justinia V has good intentions and is trying to make amends).

It's hardly a prize to win Thedas' version of Can You Top This?  Everyone suffers no matter the race or background.  But there are some groups that are aguably bigger targets.  This is an intriguing topic of discussion, OP

Modifié par WardenWade, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:06 .

[Kallimachus]

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

Life in the alienages might be poor, but you don't live under constant threat of execution, or being turned into a glorified zombie. You get to have some privacy, not to mention family life, and do not have people constantly watching you... Living in the prisons called "circles" is a life in constant, terrible stress, as you are completely and utterly in the hands of people who are (more often than not) trained to hate and despise you.

I'm not saying that life as an elf is good, but they have a greater amount of personal (if not financial) security.

[WardenWade]

Kallimachus wrote...

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

Life in the alienages might be poor, but you don't live under constant threat of execution, or being turned into a glorified zombie. You get to have some privacy, not to mention family life, and do not have people constantly watching you... Living in the prisons called "circles" is a life in constant, terrible stress, as you are completely and utterly in the hands of people who are (more often than not) trained to hate and despise you.

I'm not saying that life as an elf is good, but they have a greater amount of personal (if not financial) security.

That's very true.  In some ways it's a "comfort" vs. "freedom" issue, as you touch on.  I was thinking of the ways it seemed to me that life in the alienages and Circle was similar.  I also recall that Mr. Gaider mentioned on his blog that many elven mages (though not all, of course) are Loyalists, and I assume in part it may have to do with their belief that life in the Circle is somehow better or has more potential than life in the alienages, at least in some aspects.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Kallimachus wrote...

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

That was in Kirkwall. Kirkwall's circle is the worst in Thedas. The others are relatively more benign. I think the situation in Ferelden was supposed to be more typical (aside from the Uldred incident).

The worst situation is that of the casteless. City elves can legally find work and have a functioning community in which they can find some level of happiness. The squalor of the casteless is far more complete, being reduced to crime and begging (which can't be very successful since they're not even considered people). The "surface option" is also nearly nonexistent due to all the myths about the surface that make it seem like such a terrible place that most casteless won't leave.

Note: I don't think we know enough of Tevinter slaves to evaluate their situation. We've visited Orzammar, two Circles, and two Alienages, but never Tevinter.

As for elven mages, I think being a mage takes away most of the disadvantages of being an elf. There isn't nearly as much discrimination within the Circle, with elves rising to the highest ranks (e.g. Orsino).

[WardenWade]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

That was in Kirkwall. Kirkwall's circle is the worst in Thedas. The others are relatively more benign. I think the situation in Ferelden was supposed to be more typical (aside from the Uldred incident).

The worst situation is that of the casteless. City elves can legally find work and have a functioning community in which they can find some level of happiness. The squalor of the casteless is far more complete, being reduced to crime and begging (which can't be very successful since they're not even considered people). The "surface option" is also nearly nonexistent due to all the myths about the surface that make it seem like such a terrible place that most casteless won't leave.

Note: I don't think we know enough of Tevinter slaves to evaluate their situation. We've visited Orzammar, two Circles, and two Alienages, but never Tevinter.

As for elven mages, I think being a mage takes away most of the disadvantages of being an elf. There isn't nearly as much discrimination within the Circle, with elves rising to the highest ranks (e.g. Orsino).

Agreed.  The plight of the casteless is a real tangle.  They're exempt from all the but the very worst jobs, if that at all, because so many are bound up by caste.  They can become Paragons, as with Gherlon the Blood-Risen, but this requires opportunity that may not always be present and is comparatively very rare.  Likewise, as you pointed out, they are taught that the surface is a terribly dangerous place.  Indoctrination of these sort of self-defeating beliefs would need to be addressed as much as their general lot in life.

Modifié par WardenWade, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:07 .

[Secretlyapotato]

Kallimachus wrote...

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

So did Bethany, then she got caught and found out that she actually likes being in the Circle.

I only remember two elf mages living in the alienage and as I recall, both of them were blood mages and would have been executed or made tranquil if they were caught rather than allowed to live in the Circle.

[dragondreamer]

Kallimachus wrote...

ummm... you DID notice that mages prefer to hide in the alienage than be caught and sent to the circle, right?

Life in the alienages might be poor, but you don't live under constant threat of execution, or being turned into a glorified zombie. You get to have some privacy, not to mention family life, and do not have people constantly watching you... Living in the prisons called "circles" is a life in constant, terrible stress, as you are completely and utterly in the hands of people who are (more often than not) trained to hate and despise you.

I'm not saying that life as an elf is good, but they have a greater amount of personal (if not financial) security.

I wouldn't say they have more personal security given the alienages are occasionally culled, and elves can be beaten, murdered or raped with little to no hope for justice.

[cjones91]

I'd say both groups are treated like ****.Mages and elves can be raped(although mages tend to get raped in secret), killed(if one mage goes bonkers then the rest of them are screwed just like if one elf kills a noble that tries to rape/murder them the whole alienage will get purged.So I don't think one is treated better than the other because everyone treats mages and city elves like scum that they would gladly kill if they felt like it.

Modifié par cjones91, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:53 .

[Eveangaline]

what about half elf half casteless dwarf mages who were enslaved, ran to ferelden and had to live in an alienage, only to be taken to the circle