83 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

Seriously, I can't find one mission where I think Jack would be useful when compared to other squad members. Want Pull? Pick Jacob or Samara. Want an ammo power? Garrus, Jacob, Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed have those and Sheppard can get Jack's Warp Ammo. And I am totally underwhelmed by shockwave. I want people dead, not knocked off their feet. And if I do want to knock them off their feet, throw works fine. Practically every other squad mate has some power that can strip protection or outright kill, but not Jack.

[Yezdigerd]

Well, Jack ain't one of the amazing ones, but she has pull and if I would go for max effiency I pick a puller, a warp detonator and defence stripper. and she can pull often with her short recharge timer.
more troublesome is that she has shotgun as default which is the worst weapon for a squaddie IMO.
Also I find Jack's shockwave in combo with vanguard charge effective and funny.

[Secretlyapotato]

She's good in missions with a lot of husks since shockwave instantly kills them

[cap and gown]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

She's good in missions with a lot of husks since shockwave instantly kills them

But so does throw and slam. When I have done the Reaper IFF I have found Samara, Thane, and Miranda all useful. Recharge times on throw and slam are also very quick. An upgraded Sentinel Sheppard can throw just about every second. Samara has a -25% cool down evolution which allows her to throw quickly too.

I am just not seeing what Jack has to offer.

[Secretlyapotato]

That's pretty much it, otherwise she's just a burden who's mostly useless at long range and dies easily. Would've thought she'd be less crappy after seeing her fight in cutscenes.

Although I still perfer getting the Reaper IFF and doing Horizon with her, even when I'm a vanguard. Tis fun to shockwave a large group of husks.

Modifié par Secretlyapotato, 17 juillet 2013 - 01:57 .

[Darkstar Aurora]

The role of a biotic specialist is crowd control, killing enemies with physics and/or the environment, and contributing to biotic power combinations (i.e. lift effects combined with Newton force powers or Warp). Ergo, Jack is the most powerful biotic specialist in the game.

cap and gown wrote...

Seriously, I can't find one mission where I think Jack would be useful when compared to other squad members.

Jack is useful in every mission with a bridge, ledge, balcony for enemy snipers, chasm, corridor, explosive container, floating platform, or simply enemies who hide behind cover. Shockwave transforms the first seven terrain features into free damage/kill zones while simultaneously providing crowd control against unintended targets as well. As for cover, Shockwave completley bypasses it and elminates its advantage--which is fairly game changing in a cover based RPG shooter.

Want Pull? Pick Jacob or Samara.

No thanks. Jack has the most powerful and efficient Pull in the game by virtue of her powers and bonuses. Therefore if I want a squad member with Pull (and I invariably do) then I pick Jack.
Jack is more efficient than Jacob in the use of Pull because:
* her powers recharge 25% faster (Primal Adept)
* her powers inflict 20% more impact/collision damage (Multicore Implants)
* her ammo power inflicts bonus damage against a wider range of resistances (enabling faster use of Pull on variety of targets), doubles its bonus damage against enemies affected by Pull, and it applies that damage immediately rather than over time.
Also, I never have to worry about Jack wasting a Pull cooldown on Barrier instead due to the AI scripting and squad members free use of defensive powers even when not commanded to do so.

Jack is more efficient than Samara in the use of Pull because
*her armor/barrier piercing power (Warp Ammo) does not consume her cooldown time, which means enemies can be lifted immediately upon their resistances being breached.
*the bonus damage from Squad Warp Ammo combined with concentrated fire gives a greater increase to armor/barrier DPS than Samara's Reave, without using her cooldown.
* Jack's weapons inflict heavy damage in single shots, rather than light damage per shot in long exposed firing bursts. Shotguns and pistols have innate x1.5 multipliers against resistances, and can be upgraded for an additional x1.5 piercing multiplier, which means Jack quickly pierces enemy armor/shields/barriers with weapons, with minimal return fire.

Want an ammo power? Garrus, Jacob, Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed have those and Sheppard can get Jack's Warp Ammo.

The bonuses from Armor Piercing Ammo, Incendiary Ammo, Shredder Ammo, and Disruptor Ammo do not apply against biotic barriers, and their damage against health is less than the damage from Jack's Warp Ammo since any target with only health remaining will always be under the effects of Pull.

As for Shepard, you can make the same argument for any squad member's bonus power. I would rather spend my bonus power on Stasis, Flashbang Grenade, or Dominate---powers that actually impact the battle, and leave ammo powers to respective squad members. Since you mention Jacob and Samara its worth noting that the barrier/health replenishment of their bonus powers only benefits the character who uses them, which doesn't result in much benefit since Jacob and Samara cannot revive you. By contrast, when Jack uses Warp Ammo it can benefit Shepard.

And I am totally underwhelmed by shockwave. I want people dead, not knocked off their feet. And if I do want to knock them off their feet, throw works fine. Practically every other squad mate has some power that can strip protection or outright kill, but not Jack.

Crowd Control abilities are exponentially more valuable than Direct Damage abilities---since staggered, stunned, or prone enemies are not returning fire and you can always inflict damage with weapons. This is true of any team based RPG, carries through to Mass Effect.

Jack's Shockwave is more valuable than Samara/Thane's Throw since it strikes more targets and impels them either directly into the air or a curved arc trajectory--which means it synergies better with terrain hazards and biotic lift effects to quickly kill enemies. By contrast, Throw can only propel an enemy away from the squad member in a direct line, which invariably means they hit a chest-high wall a few feet away rather than the full strength of Throw's netwon force. Shockwave also bypasses cover, whereas Throw and Slam can either be blocked by it or place targets out of firing sight behind it.

Combined with her unique upgrades Heavy Shockwave has nearly the same newton force as Samara's Throw Field...except that Jack's power affects a 12x larger area and cannot be evaded by ducking behind a wall.

Lastly, Warp Ammo *is* a resistance piercing power, Warp Ammo + Pull is an outright killing power combination, and relying solely on cooldown powers from squad mates is a highly inefficient and time consuming means of breaching enemy defenses. Weapons can gain massive damage multipliers against armor/barriers/shields due to inherent bonuses, upgrades, and ammo powers providing the last necessary boost. By contrast they inflict less damage against health. Using the squads weapons to pierce defenses and then following up with a lifting power is the more efficient means of killing enemies.

Simply stated, Jack can inflict more shield/barrier damage with a SINGLE SHOT from her Geth Plasma Shotgun than Miranda can deal with a Heavy Overload or Samara can deal with a Heavy Reave. The different is Jack didnt waste her cooldown to do so and can immediately follow up with Pull + Warp Ammo to finish off the defenseless target.

Modifié par Darkstar Aurora, 17 juillet 2013 - 07:05 .

[cap and gown]

I'm sorry, I am just not buying these arguments for using Jack.

I just took her to Horizon with me because I wanted someone to deal with the Husks. I was also thinking there might be some opportunities for pull/warp combos. (Miranda was the other squadmate.)

I would have taken Grunt, except I hadn't gotten him to Inferno ammo yet (poor leveling choices on my part). I was also considering Jacob because he did have Inferno ammo but his cool down time on pull is 25% greater than Jack's so my thinking was: fewer chances for a pull/warp combo.

What I found was totally underwhelming. I got to use Jack's shockwave twice for taking out husks, but in the final courtyard, they were too scattered to use pull/warp or shockwave effectively. So I ended up having her do a lot of pulls, at least as much as I could, since cool down was still an issue. I only found 1 or 2 opportunities for a pull/warp combo. Mostly, every enemy seemed have barriers or armor, making Jack useless. Even her GPS, which I just got yesterday, was very disappointing. Playing as a soldier (my first time) I could see the scatter on her shots whenever I was using AR. Despite being longer range than other shotguns, the GPS still had a very wide scatter, even when I tried to position her closer to the action. Also, putting her in the middle of the action, just so she can use the GPS doesn't seem to work. I saw a husk climb all over her and I had to shoot it off. Grunt would have just head butted the thing into oblivion, plus he is soooo much more survivable.

As for dealing with barriers, I am not going to go with an inferior ammo just so I can deal with one type of protection that other ammo's can't handle, not when I have warp and reeve available. Talk about cool down time here makes no sense. So Jack just sits there shooting until the barrier comes down when she can finally use a power? Unstable warp has a 9 second cooldown. And it is good against barriers, armor, and allows for wide area combos. This is not to say I will totally discount warp ammo. When I played a Sentinel, this was my bonus power of choice. But as a soldier I would rather provide my squad with incendiary ammo instead instead of having Jack provide us with warp ammo. (Plus, that option was not available on Horizon, anyway.)

Finally, it is not possible for Jack to have all of squad warp ammo, improved shockwave, primal adept and pull. Something has to give. There are just not enough points to fully evolve shockwave, cooldown, and warp ammo, and still have one point left for pull.

Modifié par cap and gown, 18 juillet 2013 - 01:42 .

[brad2240]

I found Jack to be devastating on Veteran difficulty or less but heavily neutered on Hardcore and Insanity. She's too tied to Shockwave, which is just one of the worst powers in the game. It's cooldown is way too long for the brief stagger you get against protected enemies, and its hard to get enemies grouped up enough to make use of any AoE advantage it has over Throw or Pull.

If you want to take her on the team just for the sake of having her along, she can work as a Pull-bot. So she needs someone with defense-stripping powers and Warp or Throw. She makes a decent teammate along side Sentinel and Adept Shepards, or on squads with Miranda or Thane. Basically just max out her passive and Pull. Ignore Shockwave as much as possible. Warp Ammo is dependant on your build and other teammates.

I only let her use a pistol, specifically the Carnifex. I hate teammates with shotguns in ME2.

I prefer her over Jacob unless I absolutely need Squad Incendiary Ammo. Faster cooldowns, much (much!) more interesting personality, and no defense power shenanigans.

But basically, she's never going to be the "best" choice for any mission. She can work, with some effort, but she's too much a victim of game mechanics in higher difficulties.

[RedCaesar97]

I find Jack's usefulness is directly tied to your Shepard's class or playstyle.

If you are Engineer that strips defenses, Jack is great for crowd control.
If you are an Adept or Sentinel, Jack is good for setting up Warp bombs or Throws.
If you specced her for Squad Warp Ammo, then that works too for Adepts since you have both Pull and Throw. If you use Pull a lot on your Vanguard, then Squad Warp Ammo works good there as well.

If you are running out in the open with a shotgun, Jack is good for staggering enemies to keep you alive.

Jack is not that great with an Infiltrator except on armor-heavy missions and/or if you use Energy Drain as your bonus power.
You may or may not notice or need Jack if you are Soldier. Mattock Soldiers in particular do not really need or use squadmates a whole lot.
You may or may not not notice or need Jack if you are a Charge-Heavy Vanguard since most of the time you are focused on the next enemy and spamming the charge key/button.

Engineers that focus on their crowd-control powers will not care for Jack a whole lot either. Assault Sentinels do not really care either.


Another thing about Jack is that you can get her much earlier than Samara, who you happen to think is better.
Also, shotguns on squadmates are not that good, but giving them the Geth Plasma Shotgun (GPS) can make up that shortcoming since it is very accurate at much longer ranges than all other shotguns.


For the record, I like squadmates with good crowd-control powers, and I especially like her Pull Field. Only Mordin is better with Cryo Blast, but his Cryo Blast can interfere with biotics, so he tends to sit on the sidelines when I use a biotic Shepard.

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
If you are Engineer that strips defenses, Jack is great for crowd control.
If you are an Adept or Sentinel, Jack is good for setting up Warp bombs or Throws.
If you specced her for Squad Warp Ammo, then that works too for Adepts since you have both Pull and Throw. If you use Pull a lot on your Vanguard, then Squad Warp Ammo works good there as well.

If you are running out in the open with a shotgun, Jack is good for staggering enemies to keep you alive.

Do you find Jack to be distinctly better at any of these tasks than other comparable squadmates?

Another thing about Jack is that you can get her much earlier than Samara, who you happen to think is better.

Do you find this to be much of an advantage really? Biotics suffer prior to Horizon due to lack of upgrades, but right after that you can get Samara if you want. Jack and Jacob are comparable in the early game but neither are particularly good at CC at that point, IMO. For me, Jack was a liability until I got some levels and biotic upgrades, by which point she's competing with Samara (and Thane) for a slot on the team.

[Yezdigerd]

cap and gown wrote...
Mostly, every enemy seemed have barriers or armor, making Jack useless.

Nah it just means the rest of the team isn't doing their job. pull or shockwave is for finishing naked enemies.( well and staggers but that is mostly if you play vanguard)

Despite being longer range than other shotguns, the GPS still had a very wide scatter, even when I tried to position her closer to the action. Also, putting her in the middle of the action, just so she can use the GPS doesn't seem to work.

Squaddies have perfect accuracy, so no need to worry about that.

So Jack just sits there shooting until the barrier comes down when she can finally use a power?

Yes.. As a soldier and Miranda with warp you should be able to strip defences on multiple chars within seconds.
strip an enemy, then slam Jack's pull button, shoot the next one, throw in a warpexplosion, rinse repeat.

But as a soldier I would rather provide my squad with incendiary ammo instead instead of having Jack provide us with warp ammo. (Plus, that option was not available on Horizon, anyway.)

Yep the CC ammos are more efficient then warpammo IMO and as soldier I wouldn't have Jack put any points in that anyway.

[cap and gown]

Well, I just took Jack and Miranda to Dantius Towers and had a better experience than with the Collectors. Basically, I used her to combo with Miranda. There were plenty of tight groupings with at least one exposed enemy. I even managed to use her shockwave a few times (when Miranda was in cool down). Mostly, I had her using the Carniflex, but I did switch her to the GPS on two occasions when we were in fairly close to some Vanguards. Seemed to work well.

Overall, it was a more satisfactory battle than the one on Horizon. (Plus, I have always liked the battlefield layout for that mission. Sniper heaven!) But as soon as I get Samara (next mission) Jack will be sidelined again.

[Mr Cloud]

I think that I took Jack on missions that tended to throw hordes of husks at me, aka derelict Reaper and Collector's Base bubble run.

[RedCaesar97]

brad2240 wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
If you are Engineer that strips defenses, Jack is great for crowd control.
If you are an Adept or Sentinel, Jack is good for setting up Warp bombs or Throws.
If you specced her for Squad Warp Ammo, then that works too for Adepts since you have both Pull and Throw. If you use Pull a lot on your Vanguard, then Squad Warp Ammo works good there as well.

If you are running out in the open with a shotgun, Jack is good for staggering enemies to keep you alive.

Do you find Jack to be distinctly better at any of these tasks than other comparable squadmates?

It depends on who I am comparing her to.

For crowd control, I prefer Mordin over Jack since his Cryo Blast is just that good, although he suffers the same problem as Jack. Namely, you have to spend points in another power (Incinerate/Shockwave) before you get to put points into the power you actually want. But since I can use two squadmates on non-loyalty missions, I can run both Jack and Mordin.

For the Adept, I prefer a Thane+Miranda combo, since they Warp-bomb while I become essentially a pull-bot. But you have to wait for Thane, so I like to recruit Jack early. Miranda+Jack gives me two biotic squadmates to play with; Miranda for warp bombs, and Jack to give me another Pull for me to Throw or Warp.

For the Sentinel, using both Jack and Samara would be preferable.

For Vanguard, I prefer Miranda and Thane if I spec into Pull. If my Vanguard is all about charging, then my squadmates matter little since I rarely have time to think about them. Too much work to use their powers when I could be hammering on the Charge button.

Another thing about Jack is that you can get her much earlier than Samara, who you happen to think is better.

Do you find this to be much of an advantage really? Biotics suffer prior to Horizon due to lack of upgrades, but right after that you can get Samara if you want. Jack and Jacob are comparable in the early game but neither are particularly good at CC at that point, IMO. For me, Jack was a liability until I got some levels and biotic upgrades, by which point she's competing with Samara (and Thane) for a slot on the team.

The biggest upgrade biotics lack is the Biotic Cooldown upgrade. The AP Pistol upgrade (+50% more damage to armor) is also absent which can hurt. 

As for Jack and Jacob being comparible, it depends on a few factors:
 - Jack has power cooldown bonuses in her passive, so she can get a faster Pull than Jacob. BUT, Jacob can get his Pull to Pull Field much quicker than Jack, at the expense of his Incendiary Ammo.
 - Jacob has Incendiary Ammo, which he can level up to Squad Incendiary Ammo. This is good for panicking organics and stopping health regeneration. Good early, but then you must prioritize it over his Pull.

As a total package, Jacob is good with both Squad Incendiary Ammo and Pull Field, which can be better than Jack, but it also depends on how you plan on using them.

But I will agree that eventually she is fighting with other squadmates for a spot on the team. That may have more to do with squadmate loyalty missions where you are forced to use one particular squadmate. (If only I could replace Grunt on his own loyalty mission.)

I think Samara/Jack comes down to personal preference. I just prefer Jack over Samara since I usually have her useful skills pretty much leveled at that point and do not have to bother with anything else. Plus I think Samara is rather boring.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 18 juillet 2013 - 11:57 .

[Wulfram]

Squad Warp Ammo is very nice against Collectors. If you don't want to use up Shepard's bonus power on it, of course.

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

 Plus I think Samara is rather boring.

Oh man you're killing me!

Thanks for the reply, Red. Clear and detailed as always.

[Erez Kristal]

Jack Is a killer, I dont know about insanity(dont like that level) but i tend to go on playthroughs were i never die on hardcore. and jack just devaste the collectors.
Warp squad ammo with grunt as meat shield, you strip enemies defences send a shockwave and reapeat. collectors are on easy mode when jacks around.

but cap and gown also thinks cerberus never helped humanity so i guess there is no help for him.

[cap and gown]

Just used Jack on the Reaper IFF mission (the other team mate, I believe, was Samara). I was fairly pleased. I specced her for pull field which got some use. I mean, useful in catching multiple bad guys. Mostly they were a little too scattered (especially when you get to the core) to make a difference between a one point pull and fully upgraded pull. There was one occasion, however, where something like 5 husks were bumping into each other at the base of some ramp. It was like Christmas come early: go to it Jack! Her shock wave proved useful right where I thought it would: in that long hall with the dragon spikes. Other than that, though, I kept using her for pull because of its shorter cool down.

Her dialogue was ok. One oddity, however, is that right after she tells you she is not going to carry anything, the next scene shows her helping carry Legion. Continuity?

[capn233]

Whoa hang on a minute.

Pull is a very useful power for a squaddie, and Jack is the best at it.  Faster cooldown means more spamming per mission.  And Pull will stagger Harbinger...

Her utility somewhat depends on what class you play and or what squad mate you pair her with (which isn't really unique to her).  As noted above, paired with Miranda is pretty good with any Shepard class as you can use Overload or your weapons to strip shields, then Pull to ragdoll +/- Warp bombs or "Super Slam".  Something like the Infiltration portion of the Suicide Mission.  Mordin with Jack is one of the best teams for melee missions, including Derelict Reaper.

Samara is not as good at pull because of her build tree.  It makes more sense to max Throw to area (which also instakills husks), and go Area Reave to group strip armor.  Jacob does Pull slower, and is too busy "throwing up a barrier!"

Shockwave is not always reliable, but it can work on a group of melee enemies, or in long corridors.  Hence she is pretty good on Dantius Towers (as noted above).  Giver her GPS or Eviscerator if you have it and she is ok.  Otherwise switch her to Carnifex.  She is fine in pistol mode.

She probably compliments the Adept the best, with Sentinel and Vanguard in second (physics combos...).  But with a vanilla Soldier or Infiltrator she will work well with Mordin, Miranda, Kasumi, Samara (Pull - Throw), or even Garrus.

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2013 - 05:23 .

[Yezdigerd]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
If you use Pull a lot on your Vanguard, then Squad Warp Ammo works good there as well.

How so? In my experience pulled enemies are finished, and killing them quicker does nothing really. while cryo or incindieary actually adds another layer of CC.

That may have more to do with squadmate loyalty missions where you are forced to use one particular squadmate. (If only I could replace Grunt on his own loyalty mission.)

Hm, what would change if you could replace Grunt there? Seems as good as any for him, not to mention one of the easiest to solo.

I think Samara/Jack comes down to personal preference.

Well I guess it depends on what role they fill in the squad. but overall Samara with cd reduced area reave is a death machine all by herself not hampered by a shotgun and can pullbot too, though thats basically a waste of a reave cd. Jack can't touch that.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 24 juillet 2013 - 11:01 .

[RedCaesar97]

Yezdigerd wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
If you use Pull a lot on your Vanguard, then Squad Warp Ammo works good there as well.

How so? In my experience pulled enemies are finished, and killing them quicker does nothing really. while cryo or incindieary actually adds another layer of CC.

I will freely admit that I have rarely used Squad Warp Ammo on Jack. I prefer using her as a Pull-bot.

I am merely pointing out that Warp Ammo on enemies lifted by Singularity or Pull deal more damage, about +70% of base weapon damage with Squad Warp Ammo, on top of +100% base weapon damage already.

If you are using Pull on your Vanguard, and likely Shockwave, then using Cryo Ammo is a bad idea since it can interfere with biotics. Pull can sometimes bug out and not actually pull the enemy, although they can still be detonated and take extra damage. 

Incendiary Ammo will only panic organics, and some organics like Krogan and Varren do not panic.

Yezdigerd wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
That may have more to do with squadmate loyalty missions where you are forced to use one particular squadmate. (If only I could replace Grunt on his own loyalty mission.)

Hm, what would change if you could replace Grunt there? Seems as good as any for him, not to mention one of the easiest to solo.

Typically I take Mordin as my second squadmate on that mission, so I would replace Grunt with any one of Jack, Samara, or Jacob. Basically anyone with Pull so I can kill Klixen and Varren quicker once they are on health.

If I am an Adept or possibly Vanguard, then I would replace Grunt with Thane. Or Jack, Samara, or Jacob so I could have another Pull.

Grunt has crap powers. Concussive Shot is terrible and I can get that from Garrus or Zaeed. Grunt has Incendiary Ammo, but I can get that from Jacob who also has Pull. Grunt has Fortification which prevents him from using Concussive Shot when I do want to use it, and it does not really keep him alive much longer on Insanity anyway.

Yezdigerd wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
I think Samara/Jack comes down to personal preference.

Well I guess it depends on what role they fill in the squad. but overall Samara with cd reduced area reave is a death machine all by herself not hampered by a shotgun and can pullbot too, though thats basically a waste of a reave cd. Jack can't touch that.

I think too many players get caught up in Jack's shotgun/pistol versus Samara's assault rifle/SMG, or all squadmate weapons for that matter. Unless your squadmate is carrying the Incisor, then the weapons do not matter all that much, at least in my opinion and experience. My squadmates are used more for their powers than their weapons. And all squadmates deal less damage with their weapons than Shepard does -- about 50% less.

And unless you are using Samara's Reave to strip armor off enemies, then I find Reave a complete waste on her, since Pull and Throw have a much quicker cooldown and effect more enemies. Pull is much better on her than Reave for most occassions, and even her Throw can be decent. So to me, Samara/Jack comes down to Shockwave/Throw, neither of which I use very much.

I also tend to recruit Samara pretty late in the game, so she rarely gets any time in my squad. Recruting Tali (Tempest, Normandy Shield upgrade) and Thane (Viper sniper rifle, Thane's Warp, Thane with the Incisor) are generally greater priorities for most of my Shepards. And Samara's skills are not really an upgrade from Jack's skills in my opinion, so I usually just stick with Jack.

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

I think too many players get caught up in Jack's shotgun/pistol versus Samara's assault rifle/SMG, or all squadmate weapons for that matter. Unless your squadmate is carrying the Incisor, then the weapons do not matter all that much, at least in my opinion and experience. My squadmates are used more for their powers than their weapons. And all squadmates deal less damage with their weapons than Shepard does -- about 50% less.

Squadmates are horrible with shotguns. Jack either shoots from too far away to do anything, or runs up and dies almost immediately. Jacob does the same. It pretty much limits them to one weapon only in my games, the Carnifex, which is decent but not as good as Samara's more versatile Vindicator. Samara just seems to do better at mid-to-long range which is where I want my squadmates at. Please note that I don't have any DLC weapons so can't comment on how much things like the GPS or Mattock changes it up.

On a side note, the sniper teammates seem to do pretty good weapon damage even without the Incisor. Garrus  Thane and Legion all seem to do perform pretty solidly even with the penalty, though that may be more a testament to sniper rifles than to the users.

And unless you are using Samara's Reave to strip armor off enemies, then I find Reave a complete waste on her, since Pull and Throw have a much quicker cooldown and effect more enemies. Pull is much better on her than Reave for most occassions, and even her Throw can be decent. So to me, Samara/Jack comes down to Shockwave/Throw, neither of which I use very much.

I think you might be glossing over the value of Reave here, my friend. They may be equal as Pull-bots, but Reave lets Samara strip 2 types of defenses and that's something Jack just cannot do (I don't consider Warp Ammo to be an effective defense stripper on a squadmate's weapon). An AoE crowd controlling defense-stripping power with built-in survival mechanics? Yes, please.

Playing Jack as a Pull-bot is probably getting the best out of her, given how sub-par Shockwave is on Hardcore and Insanity, but it makes her reliant on Shepard's class and/or the other squadmate you take with you. Playing Samara solely as a Pull-bot is a crime. She can do it just fine but has much more to offer, with Reave giving her options that lets her have a place in any Shepard/team combination.

All IMO, of course.

[Yezdigerd]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
If you are using Pull on your Vanguard, and likely Shockwave, then using Cryo Ammo is a bad idea since it can interfere with biotics. Pull can sometimes bug out and not actually pull the enemy, although they can still be detonated and take extra damage.

Ah cool,  I always wondered why pull seem to glitch so often, then again it doesn't matter much since it's ccd either way.

Grunt has crap powers. Concussive Shot is terrible and I can get that from Garrus or Zaeed. Grunt has Incendiary Ammo, but I can get that from Jacob who also has Pull. Grunt has Fortification which prevents him from using Concussive Shot when I do want to use it, and it does not really keep him alive much longer on Insanity anyway.

Yeah sure Grunt is poor, It just sounded like another squad member would make a difference on that particular misson, when all you have to do, regardless of class, is circlestrafe Shepard until everything is dead.

I think too many players get caught up in Jack's shotgun/pistol versus Samara's assault rifle/SMG, or all squadmate weapons for that matter. Unless your squadmate is carrying the Incisor, then the weapons do not matter all that much, at least in my opinion and experience.

The damage is irrelevant, yes , shotguns are bad because it forces the squaddie to close with the enemy, which kills them easily and often. well, at least in my experience

And unless you are using Samara's Reave to strip armor off enemies, then I find Reave a complete waste on her, since Pull and Throw have a much quicker cooldown and effect more enemies. Pull is much better on her than Reave for most occassions, and even her Throw can be decent.

Couldn't disagree more about Reave, the point is that reave both strips and ccs in one button and doesn't care about the state of the enemy, it always hits hard and most often wins the encounter. Samara's reave even eat up large parts of shields, despite the lack of bonus damage, (she never uses it herself on shields). It's also one of the few powers were the cd reduction is really noticeable to me. I just spam it on cd and things die.

I also tend to recruit Samara pretty late in the game, so she rarely gets any time in my squad. Recruting Tali (Tempest, Normandy Shield upgrade) and Thane (Viper sniper rifle, Thane's Warp, Thane with the Incisor) are generally greater priorities for most of my Shepards.

Ah right I played ME2 6 times or so,  I generally pick the squaddies I haven't used before on missions since I find insanity quite easy anyway.

[RedCaesar97]

I will state a few things up front:
1) As I have said before, I just do not use Samara very often. So I will freely admit that I may be missing out on the potential awesomeness of Samara since I ignore her in favor of other squadmates.

2) My playstyle tends to lean towards using squadmates for their crowd-control abilities. An exception would be Thane and Miranda, who I use with my Adepts and some Vanguards for their Warp.

3) I usually place my squadmates behind me in cover so I take the aggro from most enemies. This may also explain why I prefer crowd-control abilities from squadmates.

4) As stated by other players smarter than myself, with all biotic damage upgrades, Samara's Area Reave will completely strip armor off of husks on Insanity up to level 29. At level 30, it will not. This is due to the power duration penalty incurred on Insanity difficulty. This means that you would need to use Heavy Reave on her, making it single-target, which is not something I prefer as area-of-effect is generally considered the better option among the forum users.

5) I play on Xbox, so my squadmate power-mapping options are more limited than PC. On Xbox, I can:
a. Not map any powers and let the squadmate choose which power to use. This can lead to no power used at all or the "wrong" power (read: not the power I wanted) used.
b. I can pause and select the power I want used in a given situation.
c. I can map one squadmate power. I usually choose this option. HOWEVER, mapping a power means I can never un-map a power; I can only choose a different power to map. As an example, Miranda has three powers: Warp, Overload, and Slam. If I map Warp, she will only use Warp when directed, unless I pause and select Overload or Slam. I can change the mapping from Warp to Overload or Slam, but I cannot revert her to an unmapped state, which means she will always used the mapped power when directed.
This means that if I map a power--which I often do--then I am usually stuck always using that power. So with someone like Jack or Samara, I am mapping Pull so they never use Shockwave, Pull, or Reave unless I bring up the power wheel.


And to answer some of your points:
@brad2240:
1) Regarding squadmate weapons. I will agree that Samara's assault rifle is more versatile than Jack's shotgun+pistol combo. For me personally, I just find that the difference is negligible. I find that I do most of the work when it comes to stripping enemy defenses or killing the enemy with powers and/or guns.
The only difference is with sniper rifle squadmates, but sniper squadmates have good weapon damage bonuses (Zaeed and Thane get up to +50% from passive), plus sniper rifles gain an additional +50% headshot damage with a research upgrade.

2) I mentioned earlier about Reave. As a double armor+barrier stripper, most certainly it is good. Not as good as Incinerate versus armor, but equal or better than Warp in some respects to barriers since you can hit an group of enemies with it using Area Reave. The survival mechanic is good on Shepard, although I question its usefulness on Samara. But I am willing to admit that I just do not use it enough on Samara to notice any difference. I would still prefer Pull over Reave in that situation since it also works on synthetic enemies on health and it cools down quicker.

3) I will agree with you that using Samara as a Pull-bot is limiting her potential usefulness, as I would be ignoring Throw and Reave, especially Reave for stripping armor and barriers. That may also come down to class and playstyle, and just personal preference or even mission-specific variables such as enemy composition.


@Yezdigerd:
1) In regards to circle-strafing on Grunt's mission: I prefer Pull or Cryo Blast on that mission since Varren and Kilxen have weak armor, but Klixen especially have a lot of health, and I prefer Pull and Cryo Blast for the extra damage to frozen/ragdolled enemies to kill them quicker.

2) I prefer placing squadmates behind me. Shotguns are obviously less useful at longer ranges, but I just find that they do not deal much noticeable damage anyway regardless of weapon used. Like you, that is just from personal experience and does not necessarily reflect another person's experience such as yourself.

3) Reave can strip and crowd-control (CC) in one button. True. But in my opinion, Pull is superior to Reave in that respect since it has a shorter cooldown and holds synthetic enemies longer than Reave.
As for damage to shields: yes, it does deal more damage to shields, but I would say that Garrus'/Miranda's Overload and Tali's Energy Drain are much more effective against shields, although they definitely do not cool down as quick as Samara's Reave. And the only mission that has both enemies with weak barriers and shields is Samara's recruitment mission (which also has enemies with weak armor), but you obviously cannot use Samara on that mission.

I have used Samara on the Reaper IFF mission before, but that Shepard-specific. I would say that the Reaper IFF mission is the only mission where I would take Samara on a semi-regular basis because of all the weak armor, even if her Area Reave is not quite up to the task at level 30.

I generally like to take squadmates with powers that compliment my own Shepard's powers.