83 réponses à ce sujet

[brad2240]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

4) As stated by other players smarter than myself, with all biotic damage upgrades, Samara's Area Reave will completely strip armor off of husks on Insanity up to level 29. At level 30, it will not. This is due to the power duration penalty incurred on Insanity difficulty. This means that you would need to use Heavy Reave on her, making it single-target, which is not something I prefer as area-of-effect is generally considered the better option among the forum users.

This is an interesting point, and one that I had read before but forgotten. I have to admit that I don't play New Game + very much, so I never really spend much time at 30. I usually cap out during or just before the Suicide Mission.

5) I play on Xbox, so my squadmate power-mapping options are more limited than PC.

<snip>

This means that if I map a power--which I often do--then I am usually stuck always using that power. So with someone like Jack or Samara, I am mapping Pull so they never use Shockwave, Pull, or Reave unless I bring up the power wheel.

I play on 360 also and, ironically enough, the control limitations are one of the reasons I favor a multi-purpose power like Reave.

2) I mentioned earlier about Reave. As a double armor+barrier stripper, most certainly it is good. Not as good as Incinerate versus armor, but equal or better than Warp in some respects to barriers since you can hit an group of enemies with it using Area Reave. The survival mechanic is good on Shepard, although I question its usefulness on Samara. But I am willing to admit that I just do not use it enough on Samara to notice any difference. I would still prefer Pull over Reave in that situation since it also works on synthetic enemies on health and it cools down quicker.

Samara is one of the most survivable squadmates for me, and I like to attribute that to a combination of Reave spam and a weapon that keeps her at a comfortable range. But I've never tried to test the theory so it could just be blind luck, who knows?

Thanks for the responses.

Modifié par brad2240, 25 juillet 2013 - 10:41 .

[Yezdigerd]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
 In regards to circle-strafing on Grunt's mission: I prefer Pull or Cryo Blast on that mission since Varren and Kilxen have weak armor, but Klixen especially have a lot of health, and I prefer Pull and Cryo Blast for the extra damage to frozen/ragdolled enemies to kill them quicker.

Yes yes, obviously teammates doing well with armor will kill things quicker, it's just that the mission is so silly easy that I'm mystified why you bother listening some kind of optimization/preference.

I prefer placing squadmates behind me. Shotguns are obviously less useful at longer ranges, but I just find that they do not deal much noticeable damage anyway regardless of weapon used.

Again, my issue with shotguns had nothing to do with damage.

Reave can strip and crowd-control (CC) in one button. True. But in my opinion, Pull is superior to Reave in that respect since it has a shorter cooldown and holds synthetic enemies longer than Reave.

Pull is superior to Reave? I don't even understand why you compare them. Pull doesn't strip defences and is mostly a finishing move, Reave is a stripper on multiple target or applies cc effect if not that most often is enough to pick something off.

As for damage to shields: yes, it does deal more damage to shields, but I would say that Garrus'/Miranda's Overload and Tali's Energy Drain are much more effective against shields, although they definitely do not cool down as quick as Samara's Reave.

I mentioned shields because Reave gets bonus damage against armor and barriers. Yes abilites that target shields are more effective for stripping them, but Reave isn't really that far behind them and on a much shorter cd,
and overload etc, doesn't do anything against those enemies with barriers or armor mixed with the shields.

Furthermore, the true strength of Reave is the malleability, enemies has a tendency to take damage, so overload hits a stripped enemy, one with half a shield and one with a full one. It leaves all shieldless but the full application will only be to the one with the intact shield.
Reave on contrast will cc the stripped one, eat the halfshield and remove a big chunk of the full one. nothing is wasted. and it can do so on every defence type, just better on armor and barriers, and with Samara's cd reduction she can almost spam Reave.

I generally like to take squadmates with powers that compliment my own Shepard's powers.

Well, all squadmates do to some extent,  I pick them for new combos, and dialogue mostly

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 26 juillet 2013 - 09:40 .

[cap and gown]

Yezdigerd wrote...

[I mentioned shields because Reave gets bonus damage against armor and barriers. Yes abilites that target shields are more effective for stripping them, but Reave isn't really that far behind them and on a much shorter cd,
and overload etc, doesn't do anything against those enemies with barriers or armor mixed with the shields.

Furthermore, the true strength of Reave is the malleability, enemies has a tendency to take damage, so overload hits a stripped enemy, one with half a shield and one with a full one. It leaves all shieldless but the full application will only be to the one with the intact shield.
Reave on contrast will cc the stripped one, eat the halfshield and remove a big chunk of the full one. nothing is wasted. and it can do so on every defence type, just better on armor and barriers, and with Samara's cd reduction she can almost spam Reave.

Very useful info. Thanks for the tip about using reave on shields.

Too bad overload doesn't work the way it does in ME3. I just started using overload as my go-to attack in ME3. Gotta love the neural overload and tech combos! Plus the bad guys can't dodge it.

[RedCaesar97]

Yezdigerd wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
 In regards to circle-strafing on Grunt's mission: I prefer Pull or Cryo Blast on that mission since Varren and Kilxen have weak armor, but Klixen especially have a lot of health, and I prefer Pull and Cryo Blast for the extra damage to frozen/ragdolled enemies to kill them quicker.

Yes yes, obviously teammates doing well with armor will kill things quicker, it's just that the mission is so silly easy that I'm mystified why you bother listening some kind of optimization/preference.

Because I think Grunt is just that useless. For a supposed "tank", Grunt is usually the first squadmate to go down on that mission. I would just leave him in the tank if his loyalty mission did not give me a free shotgun upgrade and store discount.

Yezdigerd wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
Reave can strip and crowd-control (CC) in one button. True. But in my opinion, Pull is superior to Reave in that respect since it has a shorter cooldown and holds synthetic enemies longer than Reave.

Pull is superior to Reave? I don't even understand why you compare them. Pull doesn't strip defences and is mostly a finishing move, Reave is a stripper on multiple target or applies cc effect if not that most often is enough to pick something off.

I do not consider Pull a finishing move.

I use Pull for staggering protected enemies, disabling unprotected organic and synthetic enemies, and setting up biotic combos.

Reave can stagger protected enemies, deal significant damage to protections, and disable organic enemies.

I typically use my own guns and powers for stripping defenses. If I need squadmates to strip defenses, then I take Mordin and Samara for armor (so I will use Reave), and Garrus and Kasumi/Miranda for shields. I consider using Samara's Reave against shields a bad idea, even though it will deal some decent damage. Please note that is my own playstyle preferences. 

Yezdigerd wrote...
Furthermore, the true strength of Reave is the malleability, enemies has a tendency to take damage, so overload hits a stripped enemy, one with half a shield and one with a full one. It leaves all shieldless but the full application will only be to the one with the intact shield.

Reave on contrast will cc the stripped one, eat the halfshield and remove a big chunk of the full one. nothing is wasted. and it can do so on every defence type, just better on armor and barriers, and with Samara's cd reduction she can almost spam Reave.

A good analysis.
Note that Overload can overheat enemy weapons and disable unprotected synthetic enemies at rank 3. But I will agree that Reave is more malleable than Overload. 

I think that you are overvaluing Reave's crowd-controlling ability, but you do make a good point about how it can effect multiple enemies with varying degrees of protections. 
Not sure that Samara can "almost spam Reave" (she can use Pull/Throw much quicker); Mordin is really the only squadmate that can almost spam a power (Cryo Blast), although Jack and Samara (Pull/Throw) can come close.

[capn233]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

4) As stated by other players smarter than myself, with all biotic damage upgrades, Samara's Area Reave will completely strip armor off of husks on Insanity up to level 29. At level 30, it will not. This is due to the power duration penalty incurred on Insanity difficulty. This means that you would need to use Heavy Reave on her, making it single-target, which is not something I prefer as area-of-effect is generally considered the better option among the forum users.

Are you sure it doesn't barely get husks at 30?  I thought she manages to get them on Derelict Reaper and I tend to be Level 30 there.  That is max passive, all upgrade (Biotic 6 w/ Firewalker)... In fact I am pretty sure in my no-shot vid she will strip a husk unless they are ninja SMG'ing them (although I use Throw on her about 95% of the time v husks).

In any event, I basically agree with what Red has been saying.  Reave is barely a CC power on Samara because the cooldown is too long and it doesn't CC husks, doesn't CC Klixen, doesn't CC Loki or Fenris mechs... and those are the units that you want to CC.  It does CC Geth for no good reason, although you don't get the health.  Shepard can do fine with Reave as a CC power but his cd is half as long.  And it doesn't really lock down a group of mercs any better than Area Pull or Throw Field, which cd faster.

I would point out again though that I usually won't even build Samara with Pull, except perhaps if Shepard has Warp because you are required to invest in Throw to unlock Pull on her, and that means giving up passive or Reave otherwise... Throw and Pull are equivalent CC on a whole lot of units so unless you are going Warp Bombs, it doesn't matter which you take.

Weapons on the squad are nearly irrelevant for actual damage, the only relevance they have the majority of the time are A) applying ammo effects squad behavior and survivability.  B is negated if you use proper squad positioning (as positioning is the most important tactic in ME2).  For ammo effects, Samara is probably overall better since she has the Tempest for crazy Cryo Rounds, but Carnifex is ok at it and this also does not matter on any class that is not Soldier or Infiltrator w/ Squad Cryo.  Some snipers are an exception, but Jack, Samara and Jacob don't run SR's.

edit: On Insanity Grunt is one of the least useful squadmates since no squadmate can tank decently on that difficulty.  He does ok, but isn't tank worthy.  It is better to go protection stripping or CC with a squad mate.

Modifié par capn233, 26 juillet 2013 - 05:51 .

[RedCaesar97]

capn233 wrote...
Are you sure it doesn't barely get husks at 30?  I thought she manages to get them on Derelict Reaper and I tend to be Level 30 there.  That is max passive, all upgrade (Biotic 6 w/ Firewalker)... In fact I am pretty sure in my no-shot vid she will strip a husk unless they are ninja SMG'ing them (although I use Throw on her about 95% of the time v husks).

Area Reave on Insanity. I believe this was the original discussion on the topic. I believe someone put in actual numbers in another thread, but I have no idea which thread that would be. 


Edit: I will add my own numbers. Math incoming.

Area Reave: 40.00 damage per second for 4.00 seconds.

With six biotic damage upgrades (+60% damage), so the damage is 40.00 x 1.6 = 64.00.
Insanity has a -20% duration penalty so the duration is 4.00 x 0.8 = 3.2 seconds.
When Reave hits protections (armor, barrier, shields) all damage is dealt immediately, so 64.00 x 3.2 = 204.8.
Reave gains a 2x multiplier against armor, so 204.8 x 2 = 409.6 total damage to armor.

No idea what husk armor value is at level 30, so I am assuming about 410? The thread I linked suggested changing the penalty from 0.8 to 0.81, so the damage to armor would become 414.72.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 26 juillet 2013 - 09:24 .

[capn233]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Area Reave on Insanity. I believe this was the original discussion on the topic. I believe someone put in actual numbers in another thread, but I have no idea which thread that would be. 
---
Reave gains a 2x multiplier against armor, so 204.8 x 2 = 409.6 total damage to armor.

Hmmm, I admit that I have not played it in a long time so I don't recall exactly... looked like it might have.

I also find it odd that I can't find an actual Enemy HP resource for ME2.  Wonder where that data is.

edit:  Yeah I guess she is SMG'ing the difference when I am not paying attention or something.

Modifié par capn233, 26 juillet 2013 - 10:10 .

[spirosz]

Jack is ****ing beautiful on Insanity with Samara. Dem Biotic combos be tearing **** up left and right.

[Yezdigerd]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
Because I think Grunt is just that useless.

So useless that it affects what you do? My point is that anyone should be able to do Grunt's loyality mission
without a squad. Again, there is no need for cover, so you can just unload the guns, nothing that hampers movement,  you can just stripshoot and pull/xpower them as they come, circle backwards around the stairs when they pile up and shoot until everything is dead. Anyway I drop it.

I do not consider Pull a finishing move.

I use Pull for staggering protected enemies, disabling unprotected organic and synthetic enemies, and setting up biotic combos.

Reave can stagger protected enemies, deal significant damage to protections, and disable organic enemies.

Seems we agree they are apples and pies then.  I did say that pull was "mostly" a finishing move. The stagger effect can be helpful to get into cover and stuff but I consider it a fringe benefit, I suppose you can argue that it's a setup for xplosions yet  I see it as a variant of finishing, As for finishing move,  I guessimate about a thirld of those I pull in my game sail out of the map never to be seen again, then there are the husks ofc, but even those not killed instantly, will just be pulled again, my pulled enemies are in like 95% of the cases the same as a corpse, hence why I call it a finishing move.

I typically use my own guns and powers for stripping defenses. If I need squadmates to strip defenses, then I take Mordin and Samara for armor (so I will use Reave), and Garrus and Kasumi/Miranda for shields. I consider using Samara's Reave against shields a bad idea, even though it will deal some decent damage. Please note that is my own playstyle preferences.

Yes As I wrote, Reave is generally inferior to exclusive shieldstripping powers if that is all you require, a lot of maps has a mix of enemies though. You can generally find a power that do one thing bettter then reave, but I don't think there is a non signature power that match Reaves allaround utility and adapatility.

I think that you are overvaluing Reave's crowd-controlling ability, but you do make a good point about how it can effect multiple enemies with varying degrees of protections.

I didn't mean to imply Reave's CC effect is on par with say cryo or pull(which I consider less CC then permanently disabled), the thing is that it's a 2 for 1, both cc and stripper in the same cooldown. and the small cc window is just enough to kill something or change position without being shot up.

Not sure that Samara can "almost spam Reave" (she can use Pull/Throw much quicker); Mordin is really the only squadmate that can almost spam a power (Cryo Blast), although Jack and Samara (Pull/Throw) can come close.

 I said "almost", to stress how strong I think her Reave becomes with the cd reduction, I find pull to be situational, a great use and a common situation, but not something I blindly press on cd.
Reave on the other hand can handily be pressed on cd and the more often it's used the more brutal it becomes.
I also rarely use Reave on Shepard, because the rather long cd tends to interfere with the signature power, Samara lets me get the best of both worlds and she just chew everything up with without support.

[capn233]

Yezdigerd wrote...

So useless that it affects what you do? My point is that anyone should be able to do Grunt's loyality mission
without a squad. Again, there is no need for cover, so you can just unload the guns, nothing that hampers movement,  you can just stripshoot and pull/xpower them as they come, circle backwards around the stairs when they pile up and shoot until everything is dead. Anyway I drop it.

He was making a point about Grunt's tanking ability, which is pretty much non-existent on Insanity.  Grunt is built to be a "tank" in the vein of Ash or Wrex from ME1...  but he cannot tank anything.  His "powers" are Incendiary Ammo and Concussive Shot.  CS is poor on squadmates and Incendiary Ammo, while decent, is better acquired from Jacob (who incidentally has Pull).  Rite of Passage may be an "easy" mission, but the reason he mentioned it was that it is the only mission you are required to take Grunt on.  Grunt is not particularly useful in his own loyalty mission.  This is notable because most of the loyalty missions (with combat) will play to the strengths of the character in some way.

Seems we agree they are apples and pies then.  I did say that pull was "mostly" a finishing move. The stagger effect can be helpful to get into cover and stuff but I consider it a fringe benefit, I suppose you can argue that it's a setup for xplosions yet  I see it as a variant of finishing.

It is only a "finishing" move against Husks since they are killed when ragdolled, or if you can pull someone off a ledge (map dependent).  Otherwise it requires weapon fire (which deals double damage since target is ragdolled... important), physics combo (via Heavy Throw... also a rapid cd way to kill), or Warp bomb (not as rapid, but AOE).

Pull may not be as versatile as Reave, but it is a lot better for CC.  It is faster, it CC's any unprotected enemy...  Reave is better at armor than Pull, but for armor stripping Incinerate is actually better (so go Mording), and Reave isn't really any better than Warp against barriers (take Miranda who is more versatile w/ Overload or Thane who has snipers).  Either way it partly depends on what class Shepard is.  Specifically on Samara, biotics may be better served going Pull Field for more CC while using Mordin for armor stripping or Miranda / Garrus for shield stripping.  At that point it makes more sense to run Jack since she has a faster Pull cooldown unless you do an odd build on Samara that either doesn't take Reave 4 or doesn't actually max Pull.

Looking into what Red said before, even with biotic 6, Area Reave won't strip husk armor at 30, and it also doesn't strip Collector barriers, so it really isn't a good combo damage / cc power.  You end up having to pick either CC or damage there (Area vs Heavy), unless you only use her up to level 29.

Infiltrator and Soldier are perhaps the only classes where Samara is really better with Shepard than Jack and that is mainly because she can use the Tempest w/ Cryo Ammo, not because of her power skillset.  Although Carnifex w/ Cryo isn't all that bad, and at close range Shotguns will freeze pretty reliably with it as well.  At this point on Samara you can build her w/o Pull, although that makes her basically a Reave spammer.

I didn't mean to imply Reave's CC effect is on par with say cryo or pull(which I consider less CC then permanently disabled), the thing is that it's a 2 for 1, both cc and stripper in the same cooldown. and the small cc window is just enough to kill something or change position without being shot up.

It isn't 2 for 1 because you hardly ever will be getting CC and defense damage at the same time.

I said "almost", to stress how strong I think her Reave becomes with the cd reduction, I find pull to be situational, a great use and a common situation, but not something I blindly press on cd.
Reave on the other hand can handily be pressed on cd and the more often it's used the more brutal it becomes.
I also rarely use Reave on Shepard, because the rather long cd tends to interfere with the signature power, Samara lets me get the best of both worlds and she just chew everything up with without support.

Doesn't make much sense to me since base cd on Reave is 12seconds on Samara, and only 6 on Shepard.  Pull is 9s base on Samara.

[Yezdigerd]

capn233 wrote...
It is only a "finishing" move against Husks since they are killed when ragdolled, or if you can pull someone off a ledge (map dependent).  Otherwise it requires weapon fire (which deals double damage since target is ragdolled... important), physics combo (via Heavy Throw... also a rapid cd way to kill), or Warp bomb (not as rapid, but AOE).

Did you intentionally miss my point so you could argue about it?

Pull may not be as versatile as Reave, but it is a lot better for CC.  It is faster, it CC's any unprotected enemy... 

Again,  The point is that pull does virtually nothing against protected enemies, those enemies that generally kills me. Reave does, and applies a minor but relevant cc effect on mixed company. and yes I agree that Pull is better then Reave against unprotected targets, that's why I even called it a finishing move...

Looking into what Red said before, even with biotic 6, Area Reave won't strip husk armor at 30, and it also doesn't strip Collector barriers, so it really isn't a good combo damage / cc power.  You end up having to pick either CC or damage there (Area vs Heavy), unless you only use her up to level 29.

And I find all these numbers besides the point,  When Area Reave applies to multiples, more protection
damage is done then say warp to one target. I'm even perfectly happy having Reave applied to shields even though it doesn't get bonus damage.  Because while Overload does more damage in one burst. Reaves shorter cd means it will compete with it for shield damage over time, and it cc's stripped targets while destroying protections.
I think of area reave as a gun, and my guns often doesn't strip all defence in one burst, but all damage from guns adds up.

It isn't 2 for 1 because you hardly ever will be getting CC and defense damage at the same time.

Then we must play quite differently, I commonly hit a mix of protected and stripped enemies in one group, with powers.

Doesn't make much sense to me since base cd on Reave is 12seconds on Samara, and only 6 on Shepard.  Pull is 9s base on Samara.

What doesn't make sense to you? that Reave competes with the use of the signature power? That I find a shorter cd on Reave has a greater impact then one on Pull?

[capn233]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Did you intentionally miss my point so you could argue about it?

Yeah I must have since it makes no sense and if you define Pull that way then nearly half the powers in the game are "finishing moves..." like Overload, which is a finishing move because it allows you to shoot their health after you strip their shields.

Again,  The point is that pull does virtually nothing against protected enemies, those enemies that generally kills me. Reave does, and applies a minor but relevant cc effect on mixed company. and yes I agree that Pull is better then Reave against unprotected targets, that's why I even called it a finishing move...

It makes no sense to waste Samara's cooldown using Reave against shields as it just isn't efficient on them.  This whole discussion is about the merits of taking Jack and predominantly you take a squadmate with Pull if Shepard is a biotic so you can combo.  You aren't going to combo with Reave.

As a biotic, who are you going to pair Samara with in the squad?  What is her role supposed to be exactly?   Hybrid CC and anti-armor?  Mordin does that already.  Mordin - Samara isn't any better than Mordin-Jack on armor missions or especially Miranda-Jack on most anti-merc missions.  You also can't do a decent build with Samara that maxes Reave and Pull since you can't max her passive that way.

For a Soldier or Infiltrator, Samara might be a better choice than Jack, and that is mainly because the Tempest is a good choice for Squad Cryo Ammo, and you can ignore Pull on Samara since you won't be focusing on warp combos.  And then she is really only useful on missions with husks, or marginally so against Blood Pack.  She makes no sense to take against Blue Suns, Eclipse or Geth... where she offers no tangible benefit over Jack.

And I find all these numbers besides the point,  When Area Reave applies to multiples, more protection
damage is done then say warp to one target. I'm even perfectly happy having Reave applied to shields even though it doesn't get bonus damage.  Because while Overload does more damage in one burst. Reaves shorter cd means it will compete with it for shield damage over time, and it cc's stripped targets while destroying protections.

Reave against Shields does not make any sense, so I don't know why you keep repeating it.

The issue is that if you are a biotic striping armor to 1pt is basically like not stripping it if you have to line up and fire your weapon at the target anyway.  You might as well have been using your weapons to strip the armor and using the squadmate's cooldown to ragdoll the target.  The question is not whether Reave does some amount of damage, it is whether I can make a squad with Jack in it that is at least as useful as one with Samara, and that answer is Yes basically every time you are a biotic, and also yes in some cases as a combat class.

Then we must play quite differently, I commonly hit a mix of protected and stripped enemies in one group, with powers.

Yes we do.  I am not going to use an Area CC power against a mixed group and burn Samara's cooldown using it inefficiently on half of them.  Granted, I am not going to take Samara against a faction with shields anyway.

Against Blood Pack it might make some sense, except that Mordin does it better.

Against husks the main issue is that it is useless as CC against them.

What doesn't make sense to you? that Reave competes with the use of the signature power? That I find a shorter cd on Reave has a greater impact then one on Pull?

Basically all of that.

Reave on the other hand can handily be pressed on cd and the more often it's used the more brutal it becomes.
I
also rarely use Reave on Shepard, because the rather long cd tends to
interfere with the signature power, Samara lets me get the best of both
worlds and she just chew everything up with without support.

The first statement just doesn't matter since basically every power is more effective the more often it is used.  If you are talking about pure mindless spamming, maybe Reave is slightly better than Pull... but still not as efficient as using a power when it is the right time, not just hitting it whenever a character is off cooldown.

Samara isn't in a vacuum where just hitting Reave as many times in the mission makes sense... You should be managing Shepard and the squad's powers together and not just mindlessly hitting them off cooldown.  Hence if you manage the squad correctly Jack is at least as useful as Samara.

Run them both with Mordin on Old Blood as an Adept and see if Reave spam is really better than managing Jack and Mordin correctly.

[cap and gown]

capn233 wrote...

This whole discussion is about the merits of taking Jack and predominantly you take a squadmate with Pull if Shepard is a biotic so you can combo.  You aren't going to combo with Reave.

I want to ask about this, or at least make an observation on my play style with my current adept Sheppard.

This is my first time as an adept, so I am probably not very good at it. But what I have been leaning towards is bringing warp throwers (Miranda and Thane) with me, not pullers. Mordin would obviously be good for stripping armor (I took him to Horizon since Thane wasn't around yet) but I personally want two warp throwers so that one of them, at least, will be available for a combo.

I have generally been using wide singularity to prime the combos. Sometimes I will use it on a shielded enemy, let Miranda overload them, then follow up with a warp from Thane. I have also been using stasis to hold the enemy heavy hitters while we deal with the minions. I have also been rather liberal in the use of my guns to strip shields.

Miranda and Jack make a decent pair if you are not an adept since they can combo off each other (or Jack can set Sheppard up for a combo if s/he is a sentinel) but as an adept, I don't see that I want Jack around. OTOH, as an adept, I don't feel I need Samara, either. She has served me well when I played as a soldier, sentinel, and engineer, but as an adept, she just doesn't seem as useful (not yet anyway). I might even start to consider using Jacob if I want a puller. He can't pull as often as Jack, but my Sheppard does a lot of the lifting, anyway, and Jacob can give the squad incendiary ammo while still having area pull. Jack, OTOH, can't give the squad warp ammo if you want to have her do area pull. Plus, with Miranda around, she can lift as well as warp, though the window for a combo is extremely short.

On the whole, I am not really seeing the need for pullers. Throwers, OTOH, seem to be useful no matter what kind of Sheppard you are using.

Modifié par cap and gown, 31 juillet 2013 - 04:12 .

[capn233]

I was including Heavy Throw after pull as a combo, since against single targets it is more efficient than Warp bombs.

I do not think the order matters all that much, but the order you do things will depend on the squad you take with you. Incidentally, this is part of why I don't think Jack is really any less useful than Samara if she is in the right squad.

Shepard has a 3s cooldown on Pull or Throw, and squadmate base cooldown is 9s on Pull or Throw. Singularity is 4.5 on Shepard. It mainly depends on how the enemies are clustered and who you take with you though for what will be the most efficient.

Granted most of what is in this thread is focused on arguing over good vs good+ (with people on opposite sides). I have mainly tried to say that Jack is as useful as Samara if you play to their strengths. Which is to say that like nearly every squad member except maybe Miranda and Kasumi, they are somewhat situational and dependent on Shep's class, the other squadmate, and the enemy (Miranda is good everywhere, and Kasumi is practically the same).

[Yezdigerd]

capn233 wrote...

Yeah I must have since it makes no sense and if you define Pull that way then nearly half the powers in the game are "finishing moves..." like Overload, which is a finishing move because it allows you to shoot their health after you strip their shields.

Right I assume you really are as ignorant as you appear then. When I pull someone in my game, that enemy, baring unusual exceptions, ceases to be threat. Yes, eventually most pulled targets will go down and are preferable put out with a gun, but to me, this is a trivial formality something I do when nothing is shooting at me. When I Overload an enemy he is still capable of shooting and killing me, hence not finished, hence I wouldn't call it a finishing move, what is so hard to understand about this?

Otherwise it requires weapon fire (which deals double damage since target is ragdolled... important)

I fail to see why you would find bonus damage to a helpless target important, for the purpose of overcoming the encounter it wouldn't matter one wit.

is only a "finishing" move against Husks since they are killed when ragdolled, or if you can pull someone off a ledge (map dependent).

And Pull doesn't “really” kill enemies either the drop do. Why do you mention this? Does the husk being killed by the ragdoll have some gameplay significance outside pull always killing them? Or are you being argumentative for the sake of it as you appear?

It makes no sense to waste Samara's cooldown using Reave against shields as it just isn't efficient on them.

I guess we have to agree to disagree then, because this is not my experience and I have explained why.

The issue is that if you are a biotic striping armor to 1pt is basically like not stripping it if you have to line up and fire your weapon at the target anyway.

I can't make any sense of your sentence whatsoever. Why wouldn't you always be shooting at the target anyway? 1 point will disappear a fraction of a second later. Even if you really want to explode the target now, I can't see "the issue" at all.

You might as well have been using your weapons to strip the armor and using the squadmate's cooldown to ragdoll the target.

Maybe you are just better at shooting them up then, I find the combination of stripping powers and guns to be the fastest way to get them into the red.

Basically all of that.

Most signature powers are the reason you play the class, I find it better to use the short cd for Shepard's secondary, like pull or slam so charge or adrenaline rush is always ready. I can't understand why you don't see that a shorter cd makes greater difference for Reave then Pull.

The first statement just doesn't matter since basically every power is more effective the more often it is used.

Not like Reave, again Pull is vastly better against a naked targets then protected ones, Reave doesn't care. If you take Overload it might make sense to hold it back because the group is mostly shield stripped or include barriers. Reave doesn't care.

Samara isn't in a vacuum where just hitting Reave as many times in the mission makes sense... You should be managing Shepard and the squad's powers together and not just mindlessly hitting them off cooldown.

I think I most often do, Samara's Reave being an exception. Anyway, I have completed ME2 on insanity like 6 times so I think my play style is sufficiently efficient. The Collector ship is virtually the only mission were I find the setup of the squad even matters and even that I have done with Grunt and Tali for kicks.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:55 .

[RedCaesar97]

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...

[quote]capn233 wrote...

Yeah I must have since it makes no sense and if you define Pull that way then nearly half the powers in the game are "finishing moves..." like Overload, which is a finishing move because it allows you to shoot their health after you strip their shields. [/quote]

Right I assume you really are as ignorant as you appear then. When I pull someone in my game, that enemy, baring unusual exceptions, ceases to be threat. Yes, eventually most pulled targets will go down and are preferable put out with a gun, but to me, this is a trivial formality something I do when nothing is shooting at me. When I Overload an enemy he is still capable of shooting and killing me, hence not finished, hence I wouldn't call it a finishing move, what is so hard to understand about this?
[/quote]

A disabled enemy is not a dead enemy. You can only stop worrying about an enemy after that enemy is dead. A disabled enemy may not be a threat, but that enemy is only not a threat temporarily.


Also, Overload can overheat enemy weapons starting at rank 3 if I recall. 

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
Otherwise it requires weapon fire (which deals double damage since target is ragdolled... important)
[/quote]
I fail to see why you would find bonus damage to a helpless target important, for the purpose of overcoming the encounter it wouldn't matter one wit.
[/quote]
Bonus damage to a helpless target = fewer bullets on the target = less time shooting = less shield/health damage from any targets still shooting at you = less chance of dying.

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
is only a "finishing" move against Husks since they are killed when ragdolled, or if you can pull someone off a ledge (map dependent).
[/quote]

And Pull doesn't “really” kill enemies either the drop do. Why do you mention this? Does the husk being killed by the ragdoll have some gameplay significance outside pull always killing them? Or are you being argumentative for the sake of it as you appear?
[/quote]
Because you are arguing the merits of Samara's Reave being better than her Pull. Pull will kill an unprotected husk instantly. Reave will not. Reave will not even stun them on health.

Ragdolled targets (such as any enemy lifted by pull or singularity, frozen by Cryo Blast or Cryo Ammo) will take extra damage from weapons, meaning you can kill them quicker on health. This is important since no power or weapon gains a damage bonus to health, only protections.

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
The issue is that if you are a biotic striping armor to 1pt is basically like not stripping it if you have to line up and fire your weapon at the target anyway.
[/quote]
I can't make any sense of your sentence whatsoever. Why wouldn't you always be shooting at the target anyway? 1 point will disappear a fraction of a second later. Even if you really want to explode the target now, I can't see "the issue" at all.
[/quote]
I'll try to clarify.
As an Adept, if you strip armor to 1 point, then any crowd-control (CC) power that you apply is ineffective since the enemy still has armor protection. So 1 point of armor may as well have been 100 points of armor.

Sure, you should be shooting at an enemy, but if you are using a defense-stripping power and it does not stip the even the weakest of protections, then you may as well not have used it all as you are still a step away (removing defenses) before you can use effectively use a CC power on the enemy.


[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
You might as well have been using your weapons to strip the armor and using the squadmate's cooldown to ragdoll the target.
[/quote]
Maybe you are just better at shooting them up then, I find the combination of stripping powers and guns to be the fastest way to get them into the red.
[/quote]
Against elite or boss-type enemies, sure. Against basic troopers, Area Overload and Incineration Blast can completely strip the shields and armor off multiple weakly-protected enemies. Area Reave on Samara cannot at level 30.

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
Most signature powers are the reason you play the class, I find it better to use the short cd for Shepard's secondary, like pull or slam so charge or adrenaline rush is always ready. I can't understand why you don't see that a shorter cd makes greater difference for Reave then Pull. 
[/quote]
You cannot ignore signature powers since you must spend at least 1 point into them, usually 2.
Capn never said a shorter cooldown makes a difference. He is stating Pull still has a shorter cooldown than Reave and can be used more often, both on Shepard and Samara.

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
The first statement just doesn't matter since basically every power is more effective the more often it is used.
[/quote]
Not like Reave, again Pull is vastly better against a naked targets then protected ones, Reave doesn't care. If you take Overload it might make sense to hold it back because the group is mostly shield stripped or include barriers. Reave doesn't care.
[/quote]
Reave does care.
And if you need to Overload shields, you Overload them. Does not matter if the group is mostly shield-stripped or not.

[quote]Yezdigerd wrote...
[quote]capn233 wrote...
Samara isn't in a vacuum where just hitting Reave as many times in the mission makes sense... You should be managing Shepard and the squad's powers together and not just mindlessly hitting them off cooldown.
[/quote]

I think I most often do, Samara's Reave being an exception. Anyway, I have completed ME2 on insanity like 6 times so I think my play style is sufficiently efficient. The Collector ship is virtually the only mission were I find the setup of the squad even matters and even that I have done with Grunt and Tali for kicks.[/quote]
You can complete every mission with a sub-optimal squad and beat it. The difference is efficiency. If you are playing with an inefficient squad because you just feel like it for the different dialogue or challenge or whatever, then that is fine. If you are playing with an inefficient squad but think you are efficient, then that is a different matter.

I am not saying you are playing the game right or wrong; if you can pass the game you obviously played well enough to win so you obviously player "right". What I am saying is that I think you are overvaluing the power of Reave on Samara to the point you are undervaluing Pull on Samara and Jack in a lot of the same situations.

[capn233]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Right I assume you really are as ignorant as you appear then.

Glad you got to that right off the bat.  I think there are a couple more insults in the post, but I will skip ahead...

I think I most often do, Samara's Reave being an exception. Anyway, I have completed ME2 on insanity like 6 times so I think my play style is sufficiently efficient. The Collector ship is virtually the only mission were I find the setup of the squad even matters and even that I have done with Grunt and Tali for kicks.

I happen to have completed ME2 "a few times" on Insanity as well.

We can just agree to disagree about Reave and Pull if you would like.

[brad2240]

If nothing else, this thread illustrates our different playstyles and how the different squadmates fit into them.

Case in point: I see more value in a power that takes a big chunk out of the defenses of a group of enemies than Capn or Red seems to. I would prefer a squadmate that can damage defenses and still do some CC over one who relies completely on Shep or other squaddies to set her up.

Likewise, "level 30 on Insanity" is such a minute part of my gameplay that what Reave does or doesn't do under those conditions is a non-issue. Obviously others play it more.

I don't see as much use from area Pull as others do on Hardcore and Insanity. The opportunities for CC'ing an unprotected group are few and far between. I use Pull as a set-up for Warp or Throw and one rank does that just as well as four. And Samara can easily have that one, and do all I need her to do with it AND do damage to defenses that Jack cannot match,

For that reason, Jack will never be as useful to me as Samara. I do like Jack, I do take her on missions fairly often, but she doesn't mesh as well with my playstyle. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[cap and gown]

brad2240 wrote...

If nothing else, this thread illustrates our different playstyles and how the different squadmates fit into them.

Case in point: I see more value in a power that takes a big chunk out of the defenses of a group of enemies than Capn or Red seems to. I would prefer a squadmate that can damage defenses and still do some CC over one who relies completely on Shep or other squaddies to set her up.

Likewise, "level 30 on Insanity" is such a minute part of my gameplay that what Reave does or doesn't do under those conditions is a non-issue. Obviously others play it more.

I don't see as much use from area Pull as others do on Hardcore and Insanity. The opportunities for CC'ing an unprotected group are few and far between. I use Pull as a set-up for Warp or Throw and one rank does that just as well as four. And Samara can easily have that one, and do all I need her to do with it AND do damage to defenses that Jack cannot match,

For that reason, Jack will never be as useful to me as Samara. I do like Jack, I do take her on missions fairly often, but she doesn't mesh as well with my playstyle. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Sounds like you and I have the same play style. I value defense strippers over lifters, especially playing as an adept, since Sheppard has a least two lift powers (and a third if s/he were to pick up slam). Even a non-adept Sheppard can get a lift power through slam, which I have done when I played a soldier on the derelict Reaper mission. For an adept Sheppard, let him/her do the lifting while the other squad mates can either strip or combo.

Anyway, this thread has managed to change my opinion of Jack somewhat. For a non-adept Sheppard I think she can be of value if paired with the right squad mate, basically Miranda. (Interesting pairing, there, btw.) For an adept Sheppard I don't see her as being of much use. Of course, it all depends on the particular mission.

[capn233]

brad2240 wrote...

Case in point: I see more value in a power that takes a big chunk out of the defenses of a group of enemies than Capn or Red seems to.

I wouldn't say that.  I think they are about equally as useful.

Basically you always have to strip defense, then either CC or kill directly, and if you CC then you kill after you dealt with other enemies.  Husks are an exception because anything that ragdolls or freezes them instantly kills them.  Throwing or Pulling off the map also kills.

In effect it does not matter which squad mate does what, the team compositon will determine that to an extent.

Likewise, "level 30 on Insanity" is such a minute part of my gameplay that what Reave does or doesn't do under those conditions is a non-issue. Obviously others play it more.

With DLC it is a decent chunk, especially if you are importing a Level 60 Shepard from ME1.  Or it is basically all of NG+ Insanity.

I don't see as much use from area Pull as others do on Hardcore and Insanity. The opportunities for CC'ing an unprotected group are few and far between.

It is best on missions with groups of husks if another team member has AOE armor stripping, or against mercs or geth on maps where enemies funnel paired with Area Overload.

You are right that for a single Warp Detonation you do not need any more than 1 pt in Pull (or Singularity or Slam) since detonation damage depends on Warp level, not the primer in ME2.  However, if you lift multiple targets, they all receive double damage from the explosions.  If you have one point in Pull, only the target that you detonate receives double damage, and the ones on the ground will take normal warp damage.

Modifié par capn233, 01 août 2013 - 03:02 .

[brad2240]

capn233 wrote...

I wouldn't say that.  I think they are about equally as useful.

Ah ok. I guess I misunderstood what you were getting at. My apologies.

With DLC it is a decent chunk, especially if you are importing a Level 60 Shepard from ME1.  Or it is basically all of NG+ Insanity.

I know I'm in the minority here but I don't have any of the DLC. And I never do all the sidequests. I usually hit level 30 on or just before the Suicide Mission and NG+ really doesn't interest me. So that's what I mean about different ways of playing the game.

It is best on missions with groups of husks if another team member has AOE armor stripping, or against mercs or geth on maps where enemies funnel paired with Area Overload.

Well sure. I mean, I know how to use it, it just seems that my Shepard always has Pull, Throw, Cryo Blast or Cryo Ammo that I can respec into if I know I need the group CC, particularly on husk missions. And some squaddies, like Jacob or Jack herself, will have area Pull anyway. It's just rare for me to feel the need to take them for that particular power, and I never feel like I'm losing out for not maxing Pull on Samara.

[brad2240]

cap and gown wrote...

Anyway, this thread has managed to change my opinion of Jack somewhat.

I'm glad you found some use for her. I actually hated Jack when I first got the game, for her powers as well as her looks and personality. But it was threads like this that convinced me to give her another try and learn what a good and deep character she really is.

[Yezdigerd]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

A disabled enemy is not a dead enemy. You can only stop worrying about an enemy after that enemy is dead. A disabled enemy may not be a threat, but that enemy is only not a threat temporarily.

And yet I do stop worrying?, I am aware that  Pull's effect is temporary as such, believe it or not, The point I'm trying to make is that even when they don't die through the enviroment effect, 30ish% of the time, the disablement for game play purposes is permanant in my games. Yes, very rarely a pulled target sails behind me end up in  awkward places and comes out and kills me. I find that more amusing then problematic though.

Also, Overload can overheat enemy weapons starting at rank 3 if I recall.

Yes, does that change the point? Much like Reave:s cc effect it still leaves the enermy as threat that must be dealt with, Pull virtually always removes the threat for the duration of the fight, at least for me.

Bonus damage to a helpless target = fewer bullets on the target = less time shooting = less shield/health damage from any targets still shooting at you = less chance of dying.

And I find it quite awkward to shoot at helpless targets when I take damage from target's shooting at me, I  might not play the game correctly, but  I would say that shooting at the target shooting at you= less shield/health damage  = less chance of dying.
Or let say ragdolled enemies took 50% less damage instead of twice the amount, what would you do differently? I can't think of anything, except the clean up phase taking longer. hence  not important.

Because you are arguing the merits of Samara's Reave being better than her Pull. Pull will kill an unprotected husk instantly. Reave will not. Reave will not even stun them on health.

Sorry I don't even know what you are adressing. Pull and Reave are apples and oranges. I'm simply saying I prefer Samara with a Reave build, not that Pull isn't great, it is, which is why my Shepard always have it, if it's possible. Just about any area effect kills husks when they are naked.  I find that the trival part of dealing with them, not stripping them fast enough is what kills me, to deal with the actual problem, Reave is excellent and again it's in conjunction with guns. If you compare with Mordin, yes he strips a larger area fully, which you clear with cryo or pull, then there will be a stream of husks running at me while it's on cd. the guns and the faster Reave keeps better pace with that stream, I'd be surprised that if I used Mordin and Samara on the Collector ship, Samara hadn't stripped more armor points in total.

Ragdolled targets (such as any enemy lifted by pull or singularity, frozen by Cryo Blast or Cryo Ammo) will take extra damage from weapons, meaning you can kill them quicker on health. This is important since no power or weapon gains a damage bonus to health, only protections.

You list lots of info which impact, to the decision to apply Pull to a naked husk escapes me. You suggest it's relevant to do double damage with weapon to it as well even though the ragdoll kills it?

I'll try to clarify.
As an Adept, if you strip armor to 1 point, then any crowd-control (CC) power that you apply is ineffective since the enemy still has armor protection. So 1 point of armor may as well have been 100 points of armor.
Sure, you should be shooting at an enemy, but if you are using a defense-stripping power and it does not stip the even the weakest of protections, then you may as well not have used it all as you are still a step away (removing defenses) before you can use effectively use a CC power on the enemy.

You didn't adress my concern you quoted at all. While I never played an
adept, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to remove that last point
instantly with the guns even by random circumstance, so I'm mystified how it the might as well be
100 points, To reiterate for 5 or 6th time, Overload is better then Reave to strip shielded enemies, if that is all you want it to do. Reave however applies to all defences, multiple targets and applies cc to naked targets as well, at the same time, and can be used more often. I thought you even agreed with this. The notion that a shield stripped down to 25% equal a shield not stripped at all is just baffeling to me.

Capn never said a shorter cooldown makes a difference. He is stating Pull still has a shorter cooldown than Reave and can be used more often, both on Shepard and Samara.

No I said  that the 25% cd reduction makes more a difference on Reave then Pull, because I at least, mainly use Pull as an answer to a status change that most often is short enough to pull stripped enemies already, while I use Reave on cd.

And if you need to Overload shields, you Overload them. Does not matter if the group is mostly shield-stripped or not.

I disagree. I would hesistate to put say  Miranda's warp on cd if a group is mostly stripped since Overload's cd is quite long and it doesn't seem to do much against stripped enemies.

I am not saying you are playing the game right or wrong; if you can pass the game you obviously played well enough to win so you obviously player "right". What I am saying is that I think you are overvaluing the power of Reave on Samara to the point you are undervaluing Pull on Samara and Jack in a lot of the same situations

It's quite possible, I don't claim to be an expert by any means. I certainly consider Jack among the weaker, only really saved by her ability as pullbot and I prefer pull for Shepard. I had a lot of fun with her schockwave though. If I had ammopowers sorted, Reave-Samara would be my 2nd or 3th choice if I was forced to do a mission blind and my life depended on it.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 01 août 2013 - 05:58 .

[capn233]

brad2240 wrote...

I know I'm in the minority here but I don't have any of the DLC. And I never do all the sidequests. I usually hit level 30 on or just before the Suicide Mission and NG+ really doesn't interest me. So that's what I mean about different ways of playing the game.

Yeah if you don't go completionist then it isn't as big a deal.

Well sure. I mean, I know how to use it, it just seems that my Shepard always has Pull, Throw, Cryo Blast or Cryo Ammo that I can respec into if I know I need the group CC, particularly on husk missions. And some squaddies, like Jacob or Jack herself, will have area Pull anyway. It's just rare for me to feel the need to take them for that particular power, and I never feel like I'm losing out for not maxing Pull on Samara.

There are several ways to approach everything.

I also agree that on Samara I would tend not to max Pull.  Mainly because of the way her build tree goes.  As an Adept I might be tempted, but yes you will always have Jack and Jacob (at least prior to the SM).  For combat and tech classes, Pull isn't any more useful than Throw on her since they both ragdoll targets and both instakill husks as a result.

For the missions where you want AOE CC, of course Shepard has access to CC powers, but he is also the best at damage and defense stripping.  You can run it either way, use the squad to defense strip and then use Shepard's CC or damage, or have Shepard defense strip, and have the team do the CC.

Team as defense stripping is where the whole Reave thing gets tricky because of the duration penalties on Insanity.  Below 30 it doesn't matter against light armor, but the other 70% duration* that bosses gets is a consideration as well.  The tech equivalent Incinerate does not actually have duration (even though it ticks as DOT), so does full armor damage on Insanity.  Which means that Incinerate is probably the best combo anti-defense and organic CC power.  It does have a penalty against synthetics though, and does not have a bonus against barriers.  But if you spec Mordin into Rank 4 Cryo Blast (which you should always do since he has 4.5s CD at that rank), you can use that as a fast "inappropriate" anti-barrier power / mixed CC (if that is your thing).

In any event, for most classes if you are doing a Jack v Samara comparison it is probably a Rank 2, Pull Field, Primal Adept build on Jack vs Throw 4, no Pull, Sapiens Justicar, Area Reave build on Samara.  If you play to their strengths I do not think there is a substantial difference in their effectiveness.  Samara will be better on some missions and some squad mates, and Jack is better with other ones.  Their weapon difference really only matters if you have Squad Cryo Ammo, IMO.

If Shepard has AOE armor stripping, or rapid stripping with weapons, Reave loses ground to Pull or Throw because they are on faster CD.

*edit:  duration penalties are:
Tougher humanoids (Elite Mercs) = 80%
Krogans, Scions, medium-sized Geth = 70%
Heavy Mechs, Geth Prime = 60%

That is to say actual duration is that percentage of stat duration, not cut by that percent.

Modifié par capn233, 01 août 2013 - 07:48 .

[aka.700]

Biotic squadmates aren't my choices most of the time. I sometimes take Samara for her reave but that's all. Garrus with my Squad Cryo Ammo and Grunt with Heavy Fortification and Incendiary Ammo are quite effective against the husks in Reaper IFF mission for example. No need for Jack with husks

Modifié par aka.700, 18 décembre 2013 - 02:30 .