194 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I choose A and B.


Ohohohohoho!!

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

chemiclord wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

This has just become that thing that people like what's-his-face say whenever someone makes a criticism.

Is it not true?  

You don't like something?  That's perfectly fine.  You want to say it sucks?  Be my guest.   But at the end of the day, what the creator wants to do is what happens, whether you like it or not.

Bioware wants to torch their franchise and run?  That's their call.  Not yours.   They want to stand by that drek of an ending?  Again, so be it.  Their story, their rules.  Fans have the right to walk away and not support them.

Fans have the right to do a lot of things, not including torching BW's buildings and pointing guns at Casey Hudson. 

[jtav]

I'm a big believer in the fiction identity postulate--all fiction is equally (un)real. Shepard isn't going to sue you for libel if you say he chose an ending you find more agreeable. So knock yourself out. I've seen fanwork better written with more care for the IP than the official material. I daresay I've written better. But it gets incredibly annoying to have a discussion of canon and have someone say "In my headcanon..." and expect it to be treated as if it were official. Fans certainly should be able to create their own endings which are just as valid as BW in one sense, but also separate. You're creating your own universe that the writers can't muck up anymore, but the writers can't and won't acknowledge that universe, nor will most fans.

[Nightwriter]

chemiclord wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

This has just become that thing that people like what's-his-face say whenever someone makes a criticism.

Is it not true?  

You don't like something?  That's perfectly fine.  You want to say it sucks?  Be my guest.   But at the end of the day, what the creator wants to do is what happens, whether you like it or not.

Bioware wants to torch their franchise and run?  That's their call.  Not yours.   They want to stand by that drek of an ending?  Again, so be it.  Their story, their rules.  Fans have the right to walk away and not support them.

It became hard to care whether or not it was true after the hundred thousandth time it was spammed at me. Now every time I hear it the red haze descends and objectivity packs its bags and catches a flight to Honolulu. ARE YOU HAPPY IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

No, really: it is true, but people turn it into something resentable by spouting it anytime someone says the game should have been any different than the way it was. They act like we're building the Tower of Babel and daring to enter the kingdom of God or something. I mean, really. We have the right to say the game should have been X and BioWare has the right to print our posts out and wipe their asses with it if they like. I bet Priestly already does that, the old flirt.

Anyway, it seems like you're saying "accept and agree with absolutely everything or shut up and completely walk away from the franchise." Is that what you're saying? Because that seems silly to me.

[JamieCOTC]

Any fan fiction or creation should acknowledge the canon work it was derived from. I hated the ending, but I built upon it and forced it to make some kind of sense and obtain a much more effective catharsis for Shepard. if someone wants to erase the ending from their mind and make another up, fine, but that's only for them. Just like my own headcanon is for me.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Headcanon is called headcanon for a reason, lol. But if people really don't like Mass Effect, I don't see why they wouldn't put their own creative juices into another completely different story. Maybe even try to be famous. Success is the best revenge.

That's what I'm going to try to do. Write a story. Become famous. And Mass Effect will partially be my inspiration for that.

[FlamingBoy]

chemiclord wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

This has just become that thing that people like what's-his-face say whenever someone makes a criticism.

Is it not true?  

You don't like something?  That's perfectly fine.  You want to say it sucks?  Be my guest.   But at the end of the day, what the creator wants to do is what happens, whether you like it or not.

Bioware wants to torch their franchise and run?  That's their call.  Not yours.   They want to stand by that drek of an ending?  Again, so be it.  Their story, their rules.  Fans have the right to walk away and not support them.

We have many more tools at our disposal than the "buy it or don't" attitude which has seeped into the industry like a cancer. Its not the be all and end all of arguments especially in a product marketed of the essential value of players agency above all else.

This rot unfortunetly has spread to the developers, as evidence in this little gem


Source: http://social.biowar...index/6589945/1
Dragon age, but the argument still applies to the mass effect team.
These statements simply have no respect for the consequences of choices, if a writer is unprepared to follow through with a choice it should never have been included.

The writers work is not beyond question simply because its "theirs". Nor does the argument have any standing in the "goodness" of the work, its a cop out simply put, to avoid criticism.
It is definetly not an argument that should be put out by develeopers let alone the consumers.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 11 juillet 2013 - 03:41 .

[chemiclord]

And what tools are those may that be?

Modding? Technically illegal, it exists merely because Bioware doesn't think it's worth the fight to bring litigation.

Fanfiction? Same as above.

You have no power over the story beyond what you pretend to have.  Your delusions of adequacy do not equal control.  They want to **** all over their lore?  They have all the say, you have none.  They want to destroy everything they've built?  Too bad.  You can't stop them.  The IP creator has total control over the work and its content, and you have two options:

Take it or Leave it.

Modifié par chemiclord, 11 juillet 2013 - 03:54 .

[FlamingBoy]

People really need stop using the word "delusions" at every opportunity.

Edit: also the "take it or leave it" is a false dilema, people have many legal or personal opitions which they can take when they are unhappy with a product, this controversy is evidence of that.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 11 juillet 2013 - 03:57 .

[Nightwriter]

chemiclord wrote...

And what tools are those may that be?

Modding? Technically illegal, it exists merely because Bioware doesn't think it's worth the fight to bring litigation.

Fanfiction? Same as above.

You have no power over the story beyond what you pretend to have.  Your delusions of adequacy do not equal control.  They want to **** all over their lore?  They have all the say, you have none.  They want to destroy everything they've built?  Too bad.  You can't stop them.  The IP creator has total control over the work and its content, and you have two options:

Take it or Leave it.

The attitude about modding and fanfiction was illuminating.

[David7204]

You're free to imagine whatever you choose.

Neither fanfiction or modding are illegal so long as you don't make money off of them. I would think that's pretty bloody obvious.

Modifié par David7204, 11 juillet 2013 - 04:21 .

[chemiclord]

Nightwriter wrote...

The attitude about modding and fanfiction was illuminating.

It's not an attitude.  It's TRUE.  Modding and fanfiction are technically illegal practices; they are violations of copywrited material.  If an author or publisher feels particularly dickish, they can (and have) forced modders and fanfic writers to cease and desist.

The vast majority don't... because they aren't that dickish, but that doesn't change the simple fact that the "tools" fans think they have are illegal, and fans could be forced to stop at any time.

Yes, I'm being combative here.  This is a VERY personal and touchy subject for me.  I've had "fans" approach me in the past and tell me that if I was smart I'd do my stories the way they want it, because frankly I don't know what I'm doing and I need them to tell me.

I have generally replied along the lines of requesting they find a broken broom handle and have a seat in the corner.  That level of arrogance is rude and frankly disrespectful, and the idea that fans actually think it's OKAY to behave that way... I understand that some WILL act that way... I've resigned and accepted that they will... but it still frankly hurts.

It's one thing to be passionate about the content you enjoy.  It's entirely another to presume YOU know better than the people who created the content, and that since you know better, it's perfectly acceptable to taking a steaming **** on what creators have done.

I appreciate fanfiction.  I really do (I write it myself; I owe my "big break" for what amounts to it).  But when you create a fanwork out what amounts to enraged bitterness, yeah, that hurts.  You can approach it in a much less aggressive and mean-spirited way.

[chemiclord]

David7204 wrote...

You're free to imagine whatever you choose.

Neither fanfiction or modding are illegal so long as you don't make money off of them. I would think that's pretty bloody obvious.

That actually is not true at all.  Fanfiction or modding are copyright violations, whether you make money off them or not.  It's merely TRYING to make money of them that tends to make publishers bring down the hammer.

A rather famous example was Squaresoft laying down the law on some gamers who tried to make a sequel to Crono Trigger, and were allowing their progress to be downloaded and played free of charge.  That these guys didn't charge for it didn't change the fact that Square was able to slam them with a Cease and Desist and the gamers had no choice but to comply or be financially ruined.

[David7204]

And that was almost certainly because they failed to sufficiently clarify that the project was completely fan made and unconnected to official content.

[Tron Mega]

i miss IT.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

With the game mods? All game mods are property of Bioware. This is why they let the single player game mods slide. They own them.

[David7204]

No they don't, Julia.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

chemiclord wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The attitude about modding and fanfiction was illuminating.

It's not an attitude.  It's TRUE.  Modding and fanfiction are technically illegal practices; they are violations of copywrited material.  If an author or publisher feels particularly dickish, they can (and have) forced modders and fanfic writers to cease and desist.

The vast majority don't... because they aren't that dickish, but that doesn't change the simple fact that the "tools" fans think they have are illegal, and fans could be forced to stop at any time.

Yes, I'm being combative here.  This is a VERY personal and touchy subject for me.  I've had "fans" approach me in the past and tell me that if I was smart I'd do my stories the way they want it, because frankly I don't know what I'm doing and I need them to tell me.

I have generally replied along the lines of requesting they find a broken broom handle and have a seat in the corner.  That level of arrogance is rude and frankly disrespectful, and the idea that fans actually think it's OKAY to behave that way... I understand that some WILL act that way... I've resigned and accepted that they will... but it still frankly hurts.

It's one thing to be passionate about the content you enjoy.  It's entirely another to presume YOU know better than the people who created the content, and that since you know better, it's perfectly acceptable to taking a steaming **** on what creators have done.

I appreciate fanfiction.  I really do (I write it myself; I owe my "big break" for what amounts to it).  But when you create a fanwork out what amounts to enraged bitterness, yeah, that hurts.  You can approach it in a much less aggressive and mean-spirited way.

lol, you're being way too dramatic and it's making me giggle.

No one cares about mods OR fanfictions. Not really. Including Bioware. Yes, they can **** on their own copyrighted material as much as they want. But fans have every right and reason in the WORLD to say ANYTHING and have ANY opinion that they want, as long as it's not a threat. It's called freedom of speech, look it up. If they want to tell BW that they could do better than them, hell, all the power to them. They might be right. It's not like a group of fans have snuck in and held Bioware's company hostage and forced them to let THEM write the game. That seems to be what you're implying is going on.

Fanfictions and mods might be illegal, but everyone does them, and BW hasn't done anything about it yet, and it makes a lot of fans happier, so I say, let it continue. But don't be an idiot and get people's rage and anger and critcism, which they, have every RIGHT to have, confused with them trying to force Bioware's hand in any way. They're not. They just want BW to listen to them, because from how many of them were dissapointed with the game and the final product, it doesn't appear that Bioware was listening to them at all, which they said before that they were.

Fans can protest. Fans can sue. Fans can write fan fictions, and make mods. It'll be legal and illegal and whatever. It's like smoking weed and lying about your age on the internet. Don't get so butthurt that some people do it. I don't see what the big deal is. I think you're just making it a big deal. Like I said, I'm not seeing anyone point a gun to Casey Hudson's head and demand him to re-make the ending. Unless that happens, I don't think they're going to far. After all, Bioware does appear to be listening, as evidence from the EC and Citadel DLC. Sometimes if you scream hard enough, you will be heard.

Modifié par favoritehookeronthecitadel, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:03 .

[Bill Casey]

chemiclord wrote...

But when you create a fanwork out what amounts to enraged bitterness, yeah, that hurts.  You can approach it in a much less aggressive and mean-spirited way.

Are you suggesting that MEHEM is mean spirited?
If so, I would suggest you're nuts...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:07 .

[Bill Casey]

chemiclord wrote...

And what tools are those may that be?

Modding? Technically illegal, it exists merely because Bioware doesn't think it's worth the fight to bring litigation.

Fanfiction? Same as above.

You have no power over the story beyond what you pretend to have.  Your delusions of adequacy do not equal control.  They want to **** all over their lore?  They have all the say, you have none.  They want to destroy everything they've built?  Too bad.  You can't stop them.  The IP creator has total control over the work and its content, and you have two options:

Take it or Leave it.

Creator arrogance at its finest...
You only have as much control as fans are willing to give you...
They can outright reject what you've written and there's nothing you can do about it...

[Wolfva2]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

like it or not... it IS their story. It is THEIR world. Not yours.

This has just become that thing that people like what's-his-face say whenever someone makes a criticism.

I know, right? If people want to tell BW they ****ed up their story and the fans would do a better job, they have every right to. 

Yep.  They surely do.  Oddly though...no one is saying they SHOULDN'T.  It's funny...people like you demand the right to criticize others, and yet you ALSO demand that NO ONE be able to criticize YOU.  Or your opinions.  How very odd.

Chemiclord is right.  It's THEIR story.  THEY created it.  They created it to appeal to as large a number of people they felt they could while maintaining a certain level of quality.  Yes, they told us we'd have choices to make.  First off, if you believe everything you're told...well, for a small fee of ummm...200 bucks I'll tell you the secret of life.  Yep!  You heard me!  The secret of life for a small fee of only 300 bucks!  C'mon, who doesn't want to know the secret!  is 400 bucks to much?  My point being, NEVER believe everything you're told...ESPECIALLY by marketing.  Their job is to convince YOU to part with YOUR money.  It's YOUR job to decide whether or not it's worth it.  If you find out it wasn't, then THEY won, YOU lost.  Learn your lesson and move on.  Companies prey upon naivetee; don't be naive.  Stop expecting other people to look out for your interests. 

Secondly, because they created the game for mass appeal, they didn't create it for YOU ALONE.  That means there's a very real chance YOU might not like it.  Of course, they COULD have designed it for you.  Then you'd've loved the game.  But a bunch of other people might not have; they make more money appealing to the masses then to an individual.  It's the nature of the game.  Learn it.  Understand it.  Realize YOU are not the center of the universe, and YOUR wants and likes aren't the only ones in existence.

Third, this applies to EVERY game, and EVERY company.  I know someone will try claiming 'Oh, don't listen to him he's just a faaaanboiiiiii" or some other trite response.  The translation of which is, "SHUUUUTTTT UPPPP!"  People HATE it when someone has a different opinion.  Well, I've written various permutations of the above paragraphs thousands of times on dozens of game forums for a wide variety of games over the last 15 years, including games I hated. Games you couldn't pay me to play, such as WoW.   It's got NOTHING to do with ME, or Bioware, and every thing to do with FACTS.  THEY created the product.  THEY have every right to create what THEY want with THEIR money.  WE have every right NOT to buy something we don't like.  And yes, we have the right to complain about a product we don't like.  But you know what works better?  Just avoiding the product.  After all, OTHER people might like it.  Who are WE to try to deprive THEM of something THEY like, which in fact was built for THEM?  And WHY hang around something you don't like?  That just makes you miserable.  Me?  I prefer to enjoy myself.  Saddly, I find posting long diatribes to be fun <sigh>.  Which is ok, some of YOU enjoy complaining incessantly.  Match made in heaven!  :innocent: