194 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

chemiclord wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The attitude about modding and fanfiction was illuminating.

It's not an attitude.  It's TRUE.  Modding and fanfiction are technically illegal practices; they are violations of copywrited material.  If an author or publisher feels particularly dickish, they can (and have) forced modders and fanfic writers to cease and desist.

The vast majority don't... because they aren't that dickish, but that doesn't change the simple fact that the "tools" fans think they have are illegal, and fans could be forced to stop at any time.

Yes, I'm being combative here.  This is a VERY personal and touchy subject for me.  I've had "fans" approach me in the past and tell me that if I was smart I'd do my stories the way they want it, because frankly I don't know what I'm doing and I need them to tell me.

I have generally replied along the lines of requesting they find a broken broom handle and have a seat in the corner.  That level of arrogance is rude and frankly disrespectful, and the idea that fans actually think it's OKAY to behave that way... I understand that some WILL act that way... I've resigned and accepted that they will... but it still frankly hurts.

It's one thing to be passionate about the content you enjoy.  It's entirely another to presume YOU know better than the people who created the content, and that since you know better, it's perfectly acceptable to taking a steaming **** on what creators have done.

I appreciate fanfiction.  I really do (I write it myself; I owe my "big break" for what amounts to it).  But when you create a fanwork out what amounts to enraged bitterness, yeah, that hurts.  You can approach it in a much less aggressive and mean-spirited way.

Sounds like you boarded this flight with baggage, mang.

That sounds like a recipe for jadedness all right, but I think it's creating some spillover anger here.

Fans can certainly be nasty, but I do not think all "corrective" fanfiction and modding is mean-spirited. Lots of people just genuinely have broken experiences they want to heal for themselves personally. Can they be blamed for that? Life is often difficult and discouraging, and we so enjoy escaping into alternate worlds that we can lose ourselves in. We have a craving to feel that all is right in those worlds. We want to prune and protect them, and when something arises which threatens them, we want to fight it somehow.

Modding and fanfiction are pretty harmless in this regard. Those who use them are causing alterations that apply only to themselves and which in no way change the real game.

[Bill Casey]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Creator arrogance at its finest...
You only have as much control as fans are willing to give you...
They can outright reject what you've written and there's nothing you can do about it...

I don't think you understand what "control" is.

Let the fans reject all they want. That doesn't give them control over the created universe.

The creator owns it.

No, he really doesn't...
Man can rabble on about trademarks and intellectual property, but an idea lies within the mind. It cannot be restrained or owned. The video games aren't the mass effect universe. They are about it. The universe lies in the minds and hearts of those who care. And you can never own that, no matter how much you try...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:23 .

[David7204]

Tell me, Bill Casey, who 'owns' your mind?

[Bill Casey]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me, Bill Casey, who 'owns' your mind?

BioWare, clearly...
They are suing my parietal lobe right now...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:27 .

[David7204]

I'm not looking for sarcasm. Who 'owns' your mind?

[Wolfva2]

Now to actually respond to the OP. Should the player be able to make up his own ending? Well, nothing stops him. Anyone can headcannon whatever they like. There's no reason not to, especially if you don't like the way the story ends. There are people who re-wrote the end of Harry Potter where he and Malfoy end up living happily ever after. Whatever rocks your boat.

WHY do we buy stories created by others? Why do we go see movies, read books, play games? Because we trust those people to do a better job then we can. I saw 'Man of Steel' few weeks ago; good movie. It entertained me. Had some things in it that I would NEVER have thought of; same with Iron Man 3. Sure, I could have sat at home and daydreamed what I wanted of those 2 characters. But I don't want to. I want to see someone elses vision. I liked what they did; I'm eager to see the next movies in those franchises. I also saw Prometheus when it first came out. Even though I tend to turn my brain off at movies, there was no way possible, short of a frontal lobotomy, that I could shut my brain off enough to pass over the glaring idiocies of that movie. Talk about plot holes! The plot holes had plot holes. Unless the next movie has Ripley coming back from the dead to rip Ridley Scotts head off and deposit baby aliens down his esophagus, I won't be seeing the next movie.

Sure, I could head cannon it to be whatever ending I want. I could even hang out on the Ridley Scott forum lambasting him daily for making such a heaping pile of excrement. After all, I go to see other people's stories to be entertained; that movie did not entertain me. Instead, I shall simply avoid his movies in the future, thus depriving him of my $7.50. Same was true with WoW; I betaed it, didn't like it. Gave my reasons for not liking it on the beta forum (since one thing a beta tester is supposed to do is critique the game) and moved on. I didn't buy it. I didn't lambast them for months on end about how badly that game sucked. And waddayaknow? At one time as many as 11 million people disagreed with me. <Shrug> Oh well.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Bill Casey wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Creator arrogance at its finest...
You only have as much control as fans are willing to give you...
They can outright reject what you've written and there's nothing you can do about it...

I don't think you understand what "control" is.

Let the fans reject all they want. That doesn't give them control over the created universe.

The creator owns it.

No, he really doesn't...
Man can rabble on about trademarks and intellectual property, but an idea lies within the mind. It cannot be restrained or owned. The video games aren't the mass effect universe. They are about it. The universe lies in the minds and hearts of those who care. And you can never own that, no matter how much you try...

Yes, well. We live in a world that respects trademarks and intellectual property, so your sappy little critique there doesn't really mean jack crap anywhere except your heart.

Mass effect's universe doesn't live as some abstract collective of peoples thoughts. It really is a obserable object that is created, funded, and kept alive through the efforts of it's creators, it's owners, and it's controllers. Fans don't do anything to progress the story, or if they do, they do a cheap job at it with the thought of no responsibility for anything they put out because as long as it fullfills their vision, taken entirely from the ideas put forward by an entire team of people mind you, it's "theirs" to do with as they please.

It's not. You don't put in the work. You don't put in the money. You don't put in anything to make it your own. And if you think that your tiny monetary transaction which makes up less than a fraction of a percent of the funding needed to make these games happen, is enough to make you own the entire universe? Than that just sounds like nonsense to me.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:34 .

[Bill Casey]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not looking for sarcasm. Who 'owns' your mind?

Nobody...

[Bill Casey]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yes, well. We live in a world that respects trademarks and intellectual property, so your sappy little critique there doesn't really mean jack crap anywhere except your heart.

Mass effect's universe doesn't live as some abstract collective of peoples thoughts. It really is a obserable object that is created, funded, and kept alive through the efforts of it's creators, it's owners, and it's controllers. Fans don't do anything to progress the story, or if they do, they do a cheap job at it with the thought of no responsibility for anything they put out because as long as it fullfills their vision, taken entirely from the ideas put forward by an entire team of people mind you, it's "theirs" to do with as they please.

It's not. You don't put in the work. You don't put in the money. You don't put in anything to make it your own. And if you think that your tiny monetary transaction which makes up less than a fraction of a percent of the funding needed to make these games happen, is enough to make you own the entire universe? Than that just sounds like nonsense to me.

Deal with it...

[David7204]

Nobody? Not even you?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Can you deal with it bill?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:39 .

[Bill Casey]

David7204 wrote...

Nobody? Not even you?

I wouldn't say I own my mind...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:39 .

[Wolfva2]

Bill Casey wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Creator arrogance at its finest...
You only have as much control as fans are willing to give you...
They can outright reject what you've written and there's nothing you can do about it...

I don't think you understand what "control" is.

Let the fans reject all they want. That doesn't give them control over the created universe.

The creator owns it.

No, he really doesn't...
Man can rabble on about trademarks and intellectual property, but an idea lies within the mind. It cannot be restrained or owned. The video games aren't the mass effect universe. They are about it. The universe lies in the minds and hearts of those who care. And you can never own that, no matter how much you try...

Errr, he's talking about LEGAL control.  Not what you think.  There is a difference you know.  Well, maybe you don't.  The creator controls what he creates, he controls the path it's going to take.  If you don't like it, tought.  Sure, you can headcannon it to be different.  You can write fanfiction and such.  But that's not going to change the product one whit.  

'Fans' can say that the Mona Lisa would be a LOT better if only Da Vinci had put her in a bikini.  Well, the fans can say that all they want.  They can even photoshop a bikini.  BUT...will that affect the actual painitng?  According to you, yes.  In reality, no.

As far as the ME universe goes...that universe was CREATED by Bioware.  Without them it would not exist.  You want something similar, but different.  Lacking the creativity to actually create it yourself, you sit back and demand that THEY create what YOU can't, while kvetching that YOU can do a better job...which you obviously can NOT do since you haven't done it.  They will do what they like with this universe; some of it you might like.  Some you might not.  But YOU have no control over what THEY create.  Which seems to irk you greatly for some reason.  Don't worry, you can still imagine things are different. 

[David7204]

Well, that's a refreshingly honest answer.

[Bill Casey]

If you suggest I'm not creative, you don't know me very well...
And the Mona Lisa was done on commission and originally had eyebrows and a more expressive smile, which was chipped away with time and restorations...

The lack of eyebrows and the half smile later became two of the most famous aspects of the work, both of which the painting's creator had nothing to do with...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2013 - 05:51 .

[PMC65]

Should players be able to make up their own ending? ...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

So what's the best option?

A) Still use all mental effort to ignore the canon ending and make up your own.

Accept that this is BW's ending and learn to love it.

C) Don't buy any future ME game since it will branch from this ending.

D) Other.

Personally, I'm still going with A because it's a fun exercise in writing and plot structure.  Plus, I'm just to stubborn to concede to BW's Artistic Integrity. But that's just me.

What about you?

I choose A and ignore the whole of Mass Effect 3 ... not just the ending.

As a fan of Mass Effect, I purchased the collector's edition of ME3 on all three platforms ... yep, PC-XBOX-PS3 ... so I'm pretty sure that Bioware doesn't care what I do. They received top dollar from me on their final installment of Shepard's life. I mean, those Collector Editions weren't a $1.99 each.

Whether I use those games as door stoppers or coasters as I create my own ending ... Bioware is still happy. They made top dollar off of me out of the gate. If my own personal made-up crap ending makes me happy in place of theirs ... Zingo!

Everyone is happy!

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

Wolfva2 wrote...


Yep.  They surely do.  Oddly though...no one is saying they SHOULDN'T.  It's funny...people like you demand the right to criticize others, and yet you ALSO demand that NO ONE be able to criticize YOU.  Or your opinions.  How very odd.

lol, where did I say that? And who, exactly, are people like me? You're making me ask a lot of questions out of nowhere. And I couldn't care less if people want to criticise me OR my opinions. They can go right a-****ing-head, game on. But if anyone tries to imply that people don't have the right to express their own opinions or hatred of a video game, no matter HOW harsh it is, yeah, I'll go ape**** on them and their stupidity, if I feel like it. Most of the time, it's not worth it, but every now and then you come accross a real idiot, and well, I guess I can't help myself.  Congratulatuons, you're starting to seem like one of those people.

Wolfva2 wrote...

Chemiclord is right.  It's THEIR story.  THEY created it.  They created it to appeal to as large a number of people they felt they could while maintaining a certain level of quality.  Yes, they told us we'd have choices to make.  First off, if you believe everything you're told...well, for a small fee of ummm...200 bucks I'll tell you the secret of life.  Yep!  You heard me!  The secret of life for a small fee of only 300 bucks!  C'mon, who doesn't want to know the secret!  is 400 bucks to much?  My point being, NEVER believe everything you're told...ESPECIALLY by marketing.  Their job is to convince YOU to part with YOUR money.  It's YOUR job to decide whether or not it's worth it.  If you find out it wasn't, then THEY won, YOU lost.  Learn your lesson and move on.  Companies prey upon naivetee; don't be naive.  Stop expecting other people to look out for your interests.

Well no **** Sherlock, are we gonna play kindergarten all day or are you going to actually try a little bit to tell me something I don't know. Come on, I dare you. Yeah, almost everyone knows that companies lie to sell. It's what they do. The difference is, a little game called Mass Effect 2 actually lived up to the hype and made a lot of fans happy. Some, again, weren't happy, and there's no way to avoid that. And then, Mass Effect 3 came along, and...well, a lot of people weren't.

I still don't know why you're trying to teach me a lesson. Again, I'm arguing for a mass majority of people, and yet you keep meintioning me, saying "YOU" and "YOU" over and over again like you're trying to win a medal if you acknowedge me so many times. Here's your medal boy, a nice big toilet seat, so you can **** all of that obvious constipation in your anus right out of you!  

Wolfva2 wrote...

Secondly, because they created the game for mass appeal, they didn't create it for YOU ALONE.  That means there's a very real chance YOU might not like it.  Of course, they COULD have designed it for you.  Then you'd've loved the game.  But a bunch of other people might not have; they make more money appealing to the masses then to an individual.  It's the nature of the game.  Learn it.  Understand it.  Realize YOU are not the center of the universe, and YOUR wants and likes aren't the only ones in existence.

Again, me this, me that? You want another medal? Just keep pooping out that constipation, man, just let it all out, you'll feel better. Sorry, it's just, I'm trying to validate your senseless capping of the word "YOU" and all of your other gibberish like it's a meaningful(and readable) arguement, which it really isn't, but patience, I'm trying my best.

Again, you're telling me super obvious things I already know and have no problem with and isn't very relevant to what I was saying, and you keep directing at me, me, me, me. Not the group of people, the mass majority of ME fans that were angered by the release of ME3, which, in case you're too stupid and forgot, is what I'm TALKING ABOUT IN THE FIRST ****ING PLACE!!! DERP DUH DERP!!! 

My question is- If ME3's main target audience was, you know, the mass majority of fans, and if they were so compeltely WRONG about what 90% of the fans wanted, why WOULD they have a problem with critcism, mods, fanfictions, and basically everything else that went with the retaliation of every single fan that hated the endings and of ME3 and so on and so forth.

In fact, Bioware appears to be listening to the fans, and cooperating. That's one of my main points. Look at the EC. Look at the Citadel DLC. It's quite clear that Bioware's trying to RESPOND and UNDERSTAND the fans' rage. If it wasn't for everyone being so mad, there wouldn't have BEEN the Citadel DLC, which was CLEARLY a FAN SERVICE, painstakingly made by THEM to please the FANS, as they said so themselves, I believe.

I believe in peace, and that there really isn't a war going on between BW and the fans, that BW's trying to communicate. Correct me if I'm wrong- they are, after all, planning on making a new ME game some day in the near future, and they are, after all, asking fans what their thoughts are and what they would like to see in the new game. So my question is-what's wrong with fan-fictions and mods and every last single critcism that the fans have towards the existing ME3 game?

If fans hadn't gotten so mad about the lack of romance content and time spent with squadmates from ME2, etc etc, there wouldn't have been the Citadel DLC which Bioware worked hard on and made a decent amount of money from. Hence, it was a win-win for both the fans that wanted more and Bioware that wanted to listen.

On the other hand, the MEHEM mod, which Bioware has stated so far having no problem with, has INCREASED the sales of ME3 for the PC. Again, win-win. 

So, it doesn't appear that Bioware is unhappy with the fans' retaliation of the product that was meant for the majority of them and failed. And they're not doing anything about the mods and fanfictions that are made using their material. And criticising fan-fictions is a joke, honestly. EVERYONE writes them. Think about all of the Star Wars fanfictions that are out there. You really think that LucasArts is gonna be out to get them all anytime soon? Do you think that George Lucas cares? Hahaha, NOPE! But you know, chemiclord over here, who is oh so passionate about this, seems to have all of their best interestes in mind, because he knows EXACTLY what they want, doesn't he? Becaues, you know, it's illegal and wrong and wah wah waaaah.

Saying that fanfictions and mods are wrong is like saying that smoking weed is wrong. People still do it, and they like it. So go ahead, you and chemiclord, keep trying to speak on Bioware's behalf and saying that mods and fanfics(lol) are wrong because you have their best interests in mind, YOU know what they're thinking, and YOU know what's legal while no one else does! Woo hoo! Congratulations!

Wolfva2 wrote... Third, this applies to EVERY game, and EVERY company.  I know someone will try claiming 'Oh, don't listen to him he's just a faaaanboiiiiii" or some other trite response.  The translation of which is, "SHUUUUTTTT UPPPP!"  People HATE it when someone has a different opinion.  Well, I've written various permutations of the above paragraphs thousands of times on dozens of game forums for a wide variety of games over the last 15 years, including games I hated. Games you couldn't pay me to play, such as WoW.   It's got NOTHING to do with ME, or Bioware, and every thing to do with FACTS.  THEY created the product.  THEY have every right to create what THEY want with THEIR money.  WE have every right NOT to buy something we don't like.  And yes, we have the right to complain about a product we don't like.  But you know what works better?  Just avoiding the product.  After all, OTHER people might like it.  Who are WE to try to deprive THEM of something THEY like, which in fact was built for THEM?  And WHY hang around something you don't like?  That just makes you miserable.  Me?  I prefer to enjoy myself.  Saddly, I find posting long diatribes to be fun <sigh>.  Which is ok, some of YOU enjoy complaining incessantly.  Match made in heaven!  :innocent:

They keep critcising it because it WORKS, you dumb****! Geez! Look! EC! Citadel DLC! All of the interviews! All of the questions that have been asked to the writers and their responses! What makes Bioware unique, and what sets them apart from other companies, is that they LISTENED to the fans when their endings and other aspects were DESPISED by the majority of the fans, which, as you said, they probably were trying to target in the first freaking place. 

And people stay on here because they WANT to. Because it's a way to vent their ANGER and FEELINGS! BECAUSE it's made a DIFFERENCE! Because they're still fans of the FIRST 2 MASS EFFECTS and their drawn to the tragedy of their dislike of the third game. And, most important, because they FEEL LIKE IT, NOT because it makes them all MISERABLE! The only thing that really makes this forum miserable are people like YOU. And now you're criticising all of them, getting massively off-topic in the process and ultimately just making yourself look like an utter fool. Just keep ****ting that constipation man, you'll feel better.

Geez, stupid people. Done and done. 

Modifié par favoritehookeronthecitadel, 11 juillet 2013 - 06:01 .

[Ninja Stan]

Let's try and keep this discussion on topic, please. Thank you.

[chemiclord]

Uhh... the only thing I have said on the topic of fanworks is that they are technically illegal, and that Bioware could, if they wanted, demand a cease and desist and that you would HAVE to comply or bend over and lose pretty much everything you own. That is not some dismissive opinion. That's fact.

That Bioware (and in fact the vast majority of creators) don't do that doesn't mean they can't.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

chemiclord wrote...

Uhh... the only thing I have said on the topic of fanworks is that they are technically illegal, and that Bioware could, if they wanted, demand a cease and desist and that you would HAVE to comply or bend over and lose pretty much everything you own. That is not some dismissive opinion. That's fact.

That Bioware (and in fact the vast majority of creators) don't do that doesn't mean they can't.

And, since anyone over 18 is not allowed to do dirty stuff to people that are under 18, everyone could go after them and send them to prison and give them the death penalty. And for people that smoke weed, same thing.

So what?

[Wolfva2]

Bill Casey wrote...

If you suggest I'm not creative, you don't know me very well...
And the Mona Lisa was done on commission and originally had eyebrows and a more expressive smile, which was chipped away with time and restorations...

The lack of eyebrows and the half smile later became two of the most famous aspects of the work, both of which the painting's creator had nothing to do with...

Oh, I'm sorry.  Am I SUPPOSED to know you well?  Lesseee...what do I know about you...well, your screen name is 'Bill Casey'.  You apprently think that people do not own what they make, and instead people who had nothing to do with the creation own it.  And, you know a little bit more about the Mona Lisa then I do.  Oh yeah, and you're not above nitpicking an allegory to avoid the point it was making. 

Needless to say, it surprises me not in the least that a person who thinks other people's work should belong to him ALSO thinks everyone should know, and apparently be in awe, of him.  Sorry dude, you're just another anonymous person on teh intrewebz.

[Bill Casey]

Keep assuming things about me...
It's amusing...