194 réponses à ce sujet

[Sumthing]

Bill Casey wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Nobody? Not even you?

I wouldn't say I own my mind...

The Government owns your mind.

[wright1978]

Anyone is entitled to make up whatever ending they want i say.
The ending is such a trainwreck for me personally that it needs serious modding & headcanon to make it work at all.

[Wolfva2]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Imanol de Tafalla wrote...

Ugh, it would be a terrible day for Bioware if they were to cave in and retcon the entire ME trilogy in order to appease some over-entitled whiners with excruciatingly painful rectal discomfort.

Yeah, it would be so terrible to retcon this ******-poor inconsistent mess of a story in order to create something new and hopefully better. Really, a terrible day indeed.

Yes.  Yes it would be.  Because they'd be changing something that some people LIKE for something they DON'T like.  Now sure, YOU would be completely ok with that.  But what if they changed something YOU liked?  Think of your favorite scene in the game, and imagine how you'd feel if they retconned it and changed it completely because someone else didn't like it.  You'd probably be mightily pissed.  

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it. It only means you don't like it.  

[Wolfva2]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Depends what they're saying for the "Else" part. If it's "I'm not going to buy any more of your games if this is isn't fixed" then that's fair enough. If it's "I'm going to find out where you live and beat you up" then the person needs to see the inside of a padded cell.

In another way, the "or else" is a bit beside the point for a lot of this type of entitlement. I think chemiclord has the most problem with people who don't believe they even need to make ultimatums, because their view has a right to be counted in the act of creation. Thus, it's not "change this or else" it's "change this because I said so."

Well, they have EVERY right to demand changes!  After all, THEY paid 60 bucks (or whatever) for the game, therefore they have the RIGHT to demand that it be completely changed to what they personally like, regardless of how many other people actually like it in it's current status!

Or, at least that's what some of those people actually say.  Go figure.  I used to be a poet; got published even.  I stopped because of fans.  People who told me how much they just looooved my work but then would proceed to explain to me how they knew what I meant better then I did.  There is something hugely demeaning to putting your heart and soul into a piece of work and having some idjit come up and say, "Oh, that's not what you meant!"  or, "Oh, *I* think you should have that character do this and that and further this other guy should do this and that plot just sucks but oh I am SUCH A BIG FAN!!!".   Or people who think they can do a better job, but don't.

It brings to mind this song:


"Riding on their armchairs, they dream of wealth and fame.  Fear is their companion, Nintendo is their game.  Never done Jack and Two Thumbs Don and Sidekick don't say Dick; they'll laugh at others failures, though they have not done ****"

It is so very easy to criticize others for what you can't do.

[AlexMBrennan]

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it. It only means you don't like it.

Given that there was an unprecedented uproar, I think that it's safe to say that he isn't the only one unhappy about the endings.
[rule of thumb is that you only ever hear from 5% of customers, which given the number of Retakers would suggest that 60% of customers are unhappy with it... Of course, since this is an unprecedented event the rule of thumb is not necessarily valid here]

I used to be a poet; got published even. I stopped because of fans. People who told me how much they just looooved my work but then would proceed to explain to me how they knew what I meant better then I did.

I'm sorry to hear that (really).
However, that's pretty much what you are taught to do in English lit classes.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:38 .

[Clayless]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it. It only means you don't like it.

Given that there was an unprecedented uproar, I think that it's safe to say that he isn't the only one unhappy about the endings.
[rule of thumb is that you only ever hear from 5% of customers, which given the number of Retakers would suggest that 60% of customers are unhappy with it... Of course, since this is an unprecedented event the rule of thumb is not necessarily valid here]

The Retakers only reached 4% of the number of people who bought the game in March alone.

[Wolfva2]

Yeah, I think the retakers vastly overestimate their numbers. That's the problem with being in an echo chamber; you're surrounded by people who agree, so you think you're the majority. I'd hazard a guess the vast majority of players just shrugged and moved on with life. Most will probably buy ME4 if they still feel like gaming.

Of course, there WAS a loud outcry; of that there can be no doubt. And Bioware DID listen to the outcriers. They didn't go far enough...but then again, they could never go far enough. Can't please everyone and all that. Still, I was slightly surprised that they released the EC. It showed that I probably underestimated the outcriers <LOL>

[Clayless]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yeah, I think the retakers vastly overestimate their numbers. That's the problem with being in an echo chamber; you're surrounded by people who agree, so you think you're the majority. I'd hazard a guess the vast majority of players just shrugged and moved on with life. Most will probably buy ME4 if they still feel like gaming.

Of course, there WAS a loud outcry; of that there can be no doubt. And Bioware DID listen to the outcriers. They didn't go far enough...but then again, they could never go far enough. Can't please everyone and all that. Still, I was slightly surprised that they released the EC. It showed that I probably underestimated the outcriers <LOL>

They could never go far enough to settle the Hold the Whine movement. It wouldn't matter what Bioware did, they would've stamped their feet and demanded they changed it.

I guess you do see MEHEM around occasionally, which suggests they wanted Bioware to remove choice and answers in a choice based game, but I doubt anyone believes that would be a good move for Bioware to make.

[wright1978]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't like it. It only means you don't like it.

Given that there was an unprecedented uproar, I think that it's safe to say that he isn't the only one unhappy about the endings.
[rule of thumb is that you only ever hear from 5% of customers, which given the number of Retakers would suggest that 60% of customers are unhappy with it... Of course, since this is an unprecedented event the rule of thumb is not necessarily valid here]

Yep even if you assume some sample bias, it was a huge if broad swath of people with different extent of problems with the endings. Hence EC fudge happened.

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...

I think I see where you're coming from but I also think that attitude often gets misrepresented and used to attack people unhappy with ME3.

Probably. It's not an internet argument if a side doesn't get misrepresented at some point. On the other hand, I would say it's pretty easy to distinguish people criticizing ME3 and people criticizing BioWare for not changing the endings to what they wanted.

Even that's a tricky one. Make a complete arse of something and people will ciriticse you for not fixing it. The problem with the "they just didn't get what they wanted" position is that what they wanted was quality and consistency. It's reasonable to expect and hope that such things are delivered.

[Cainhurst Crow]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

More dev time wouldn't have changed anything other than less bugs and possibly more side quests with actual content instead of pac-man planetscan.

You can't expect quality story telling from the same people who thought lazarus,space terminator and creating a middle entry that's not only pointless to the overarching story but pointless in the context of itself(ex. loyalty missions) to be good ideas.

Hey If I were in charge of ME, id gladly go back and redo ME2 and ME3.

That's the proper attitude.

I'd change a few things about ME1 as well though, like giving the Council a more serious portrayal.

More than a few things, I'd say. I'd start by burning that God-awful inventory system.

Shepard: So, george lucas was right after all.

Catalyst: Yes. But he could not improve his films, because they were already perfect.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:30 .

[johnj1979]

why not let people make up better ending because lets face it they can't do any worse than what was released has a "game".

[Legion of 1337]

I used to make long, thought out answers to everything on here. But as I've discovered, such intricacy and logic just gets tossed out the window by the nearest emotional numbskull and never gets seriously thought about or considered. So I'm sticking to 1-2 line responses lately.

Short answer: you can make up whatever, you want, but if it's not part of the game, it's not the ending.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
Even that's a tricky one. Make a complete arse of something and people will ciriticse you for not fixing it. The problem with the "they just didn't get what they wanted" position is that what they wanted was quality and consistency. It's reasonable to expect and hope that such things are delivered.

And within the wish for "quality and consistency" is a contingent of fans that simply cannot agree on what that entails. Then there are people who loved the original endings, then the people who love or accept the EC endings. Who does BioWare listen to?

Now again, this doesn't mean you can't criticize ME3's endings. You absolutely should if you dislike it. I did. Voice your criticism so BW knows, don't preorder the next ME game, or swear off BW altogether. If enough people feel similar then BW will change their strategy accordingly.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:27 .

[johnj1979]

endings do get changed.

Star Trek Enterprise had an awful ending, but a book was released that semi changed the ending
The ending of Star Trek Generations was changed because it didn't test well.
Didn't Bioware have to recall a Mass Effect book because it is awful.

Modifié par johnj1979, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:28 .

[sveners]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yeah, I think the retakers vastly overestimate their numbers. That's the problem with being in an echo chamber; you're surrounded by people who agree, so you think you're the majority. I'd hazard a guess the vast majority of players just shrugged and moved on with life. Most will probably buy ME4 if they still feel like gaming.

Of course, there WAS a loud outcry; of that there can be no doubt. And Bioware DID listen to the outcriers. They didn't go far enough...but then again, they could never go far enough. Can't please everyone and all that. Still, I was slightly surprised that they released the EC. It showed that I probably underestimated the outcriers <LOL>

I honestly think you're underestimating the level of outcry a little bit... My country's largest newspaper had the headline "Feel raped by BioWare" on their webpage for days. The only dissenting commenters on the article were people who never played the game(s). Do not count the fact that people have somewhat ceased complaining (it's been 16 months..) as fact that people love the game's ending.

I do understand how your past has made you bitter and resentful of whining fans (justified or not), just like chemiclord. However you do come off as quite condescending to a lot of people here. Which would be fair to some, or even many. But your brush sweeps too widely. A tactic employed by the people you resent.

With that said, I could not agree more that this is BioWare's story. We as fans can implore, request, ask, even whine and complain, but we can never demand. 

[CronoDragoon]

sveners wrote...
 My country's largest newspaper had the headline "Feel raped by BioWare" on their webpage for days.

Whether you love or hate the endings, that is a ridiculous, childish, offensive quote, and your newspaper and anyone who agrees with that sentiment should feel bad.

[AlanC9]

"Raped" might still be an acceptable metaphor in his country. So maybe it was just ridiculous?

I'd love to see that piece for myself if it's still up.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:42 .

[sveners]

CronoDragoon wrote...

sveners wrote...
 My country's largest newspaper had the headline "Feel raped by BioWare" on their webpage for days.

Whether you love or hate the endings, that is a ridiculous, childish, offensive quote, and your newspaper and anyone who agrees with that sentiment should feel bad.

I'm inclined to agree. It's big for a reason. Blow everything out of proportion ^^ 

The link : http://www.aftonblad...icle14530649.ab

It's actually more balanced than it sounds though. But the right headlines make people push the right (left) mouse button. There were a few articles in the neighboring countries as well, but I think most of them fed of this one.


EDIT: With big, I mean the size of the newspaper. Tabloid

Modifié par sveners, 12 juillet 2013 - 10:18 .

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
You're asking if we should use our imagination to try and override Bioware's vision of the ending?

By all means we should if we dislike it enough! As long as it's clear it's our own parallel universe, maybe one shared with a few other fans, and has no influence at all on the MEU and its story as created by Bioware, and as long as we don't try to make money from it, we can and should do so. And if we have the time and the talent, then we should absolutely write it down for others to see.

Why? Several reasons

(1) Stories may be *legally* owned by their creators, but storytelling as a cultural activity is not as one-sided. Stories grow and change as they're retold, and which variant remains and survives to become part of a culture's body of art is not determined by the creators alone. If almost everyone disliked ME3's endings enough, the number of people who have different variants in their mind and tell them to others every opportunity they get will eventually eclipse those who have the original variants in their minds.

(2) I have seen several people who claimed they could do better than Bioware. While I doubt most of those could do better under the same kind of economic constraints affecting Bioware, here's the opportunity to prove it. Personally, I haven't seen any fanfic ending better than the EC endings, only different ones, but I have seen variants of the existing ones which were more consistent with the lore and didn't have contradictory or nonsensical elements in them, and I have seen fanfics re-imagining other parts of the official story which I'd have good reasons to call "better".

(3) Most importantly, I don't see any reason not to re-imagine any part of a story I don't like if that gives me more satisfaction than accepting what Bioware has written or just moving on to another story. I rarely have the motivation since my level of dislike is rarely high enough, but it has happened with Miranda's story arc in ME3, which I think sends a reactionary message through my favorite character. I'm mad enough about that to re-imagine large parts of her story.

On the other hand, no story aspect re-imagined by myself will ever remove the dissatisfaction of being told a story with a message I dislike. Where Bioware told me a story with a message I dislike, it's obviously a message they thought worth sending, and if it's one I passionately disagree with, my dissatisfaction will not only stay with me, but carry over from the story to the writer. No re-imagining will ever give me satisfaction unless a variant of the same story without the offending message, regardless of whether it's mine or anyone else's, will eventually eclipse the original in "cultural weight". That, btw, is why it was important for some people that Bioware changes the endings rather than some anonymous fanfic writer. They didn't just want a different ending, they wanted a different message sent out with the weight of a big game developer behind it.

The answer is still "yes, we should try to create our own variants if we dislike the existing ones", but we should also remain aware of how limited the effects of that will likely be.

Everything I have to say on the subject, right here, and well done. 30 points to Ravenclaw.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CronoDragoon wrote...

sveners wrote...
 My country's largest newspaper had the headline "Feel raped by BioWare" on their webpage for days.

Whether you love or hate the endings, that is a ridiculous, childish, offensive quote, and your newspaper and anyone who agrees with that sentiment should feel bad.

Why??? I seem to remember being told by BSNites that "rape" is a dynamic word to constitute all bad changes.

Rape is a perfectly valid synonym for: betrayed, offended, stabbed, tickled, and virtually anything under the sun.

Learn your language, mister! 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

chemiclord wrote...

Well... you should acknowledge it because... like it or not... it IS their story. It is THEIR world. Not yours. It's a bit of undue arrogance whenever a fan actually thinks they can say to a creator, "I know your world better than you", even IF you think it's true... hell even if it IS true.

You are under no obligation to like what you are given. But you should at least be willing to respect the person who gave it to you. Your own personal ending wouldn't exist without them.

I don't like what I am given, nor do I respect the people who gave it to me. What they gave me and how they gave it to me is not worth my respect.

I have made my own ending that works better for me, and I am arrogant enough to say that to you, and to the creators.

What are you going to do about it?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 juillet 2013 - 10:18 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
You're asking if we should use our imagination to try and override Bioware's vision of the ending?

By all means we should if we dislike it enough! As long as it's clear it's our own parallel universe, maybe one shared with a few other fans, and has no influence at all on the MEU and its story as created by Bioware, and as long as we don't try to make money from it, we can and should do so. And if we have the time and the talent, then we should absolutely write it down for others to see.

Why? Several reasons

(1) Stories may be *legally* owned by their creators, but storytelling as a cultural activity is not as one-sided. Stories grow and change as they're retold, and which variant remains and survives to become part of a culture's body of art is not determined by the creators alone. If almost everyone disliked ME3's endings enough, the number of people who have different variants in their mind and tell them to others every opportunity they get will eventually eclipse those who have the original variants in their minds.

(2) I have seen several people who claimed they could do better than Bioware. While I doubt most of those could do better under the same kind of economic constraints affecting Bioware, here's the opportunity to prove it. Personally, I haven't seen any fanfic ending better than the EC endings, only different ones, but I have seen variants of the existing ones which were more consistent with the lore and didn't have contradictory or nonsensical elements in them, and I have seen fanfics re-imagining other parts of the official story which I'd have good reasons to call "better".

(3) Most importantly, I don't see any reason not to re-imagine any part of a story I don't like if that gives me more satisfaction than accepting what Bioware has written or just moving on to another story. I rarely have the motivation since my level of dislike is rarely high enough, but it has happened with Miranda's story arc in ME3, which I think sends a reactionary message through my favorite character. I'm mad enough about that to re-imagine large parts of her story.

On the other hand, no story aspect re-imagined by myself will ever remove the dissatisfaction of being told a story with a message I dislike. Where Bioware told me a story with a message I dislike, it's obviously a message they thought worth sending, and if it's one I passionately disagree with, my dissatisfaction will not only stay with me, but carry over from the story to the writer. No re-imagining will ever give me satisfaction unless a variant of the same story without the offending message, regardless of whether it's mine or anyone else's, will eventually eclipse the original in "cultural weight". That, btw, is why it was important for some people that Bioware changes the endings rather than some anonymous fanfic writer. They didn't just want a different ending, they wanted a different message sent out with the weight of a big game developer behind it.

The answer is still "yes, we should try to create our own variants if we dislike the existing ones", but we should also remain aware of how limited the effects of that will likely be.

Everything I have to say on the subject, right here, and well done. 30 points to Ravenclaw.

Ditto. Except for the Harry Potter bit.

Muggles would kill them all.

[Reorte]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why??? I seem to remember being told by BSNites that "rape" is a dynamic word to constitute all bad changes.

What I remember you being told is that it's a fairly suitable word to describe inteference with someone at the most fundamental level without their permission.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why??? I seem to remember being told by BSNites that "rape" is a dynamic word to constitute all bad changes.

Rape is a perfectly valid synonym for: betrayed, offended, stabbed, tickled, and virtually anything under the sun.

Learn your language, mister! 

Considering that "rape" means "to violate", yes, one could feel "raped" by Bioware.

But, y'know, rape is only ever used in a sexual manner, so that other whole definition is ignored by 99% of the population. Same thing goes for "gay", "queer", and the prefix "******-".

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 juillet 2013 - 10:24 .