285 réponses à ce sujet

[rohanks]

katamuro wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Thanix missile does not make sense. The whole reason for a Thanix cannon is that it shoots a  continious stream at extremely high velocities thus providing both kinetic and heat damage and due to its nature overwhelming shields. A thanix missile with a container of molten metal does not make sense. A fusion warhead would work better. Or a thermobaric weapon. Heat and air pressure would severely tax the shields which would allow further hits to destroy the reaper. Detonating small scale clean fusion or antimatter warheads would have made more sense.

I agree. Thanix Cannons were demoted to Thanix missiles in ME3 as another example of the writers 'jumping the shark' and creating an enemy so invincible that there was no hope for a conventional victory in space or on the ground.

Why this theme has to be reinforced to this extent is to me another example of a poorly-conceived last act and countermands a previously established method for delivering a devastating attack using a minimum payload.

Before, of course, the last dash to the beam and the 'Chewbacca defence'.

Modifié par rohanks, 13 juillet 2013 - 08:16 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

katamuro wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Thanix missile does not make sense. The whole reason for a Thanix cannon is that it shoots a  continious stream at extremely high velocities thus providing both kinetic and heat damage and due to its nature overwhelming shields. A thanix missile with a container of molten metal does not make sense. A fusion warhead would work better. Or a thermobaric weapon. Heat and air pressure would severely tax the shields which would allow further hits to destroy the reaper. Detonating small scale clean fusion or antimatter warheads would have made more sense.

Wouldn't that cuase massive damage to the planet and leave it uninhabitable afterwards? Also risking the loss of all ground forces in the area or possible the entire island? Do we even know if there is no risk of fallout of any kind of hazardous byproduct from detonating a anti-matter bomb, let alone if a small scale version is possible? Let alone a fusion bomb. What would the blast radius for such a weapon even be? Could you even detonate it inside an atmosphere and garuntee it's effects wouldn't be devastating.

Therobaric weapons are probably the best alternative, but even than, there's the issue with killing off your own forces with it than with the precise strike the thanix missle offers. It's like saying we don't need to use a predator drone strike against the enemy forces inside a occupied area, we can just use an atomic bomb and get the job done quicker, forgetting that the goal is not to destroy the planet the reapers are on and everything around it, but to take down the reaper without killing our own forces.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 08:14 .

[katamuro]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

katamuro wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Thanix missile does not make sense. The whole reason for a Thanix cannon is that it shoots a  continious stream at extremely high velocities thus providing both kinetic and heat damage and due to its nature overwhelming shields. A thanix missile with a container of molten metal does not make sense. A fusion warhead would work better. Or a thermobaric weapon. Heat and air pressure would severely tax the shields which would allow further hits to destroy the reaper. Detonating small scale clean fusion or antimatter warheads would have made more sense.

Wouldn't that cuase massive damage to the planet and leave it uninhabitable afterwards? Also risking the loss of all ground forces in the area or possible the entire island? Do we even know if there is no risk of fallout of any kind of hazardous byproduct from detonating a anti-matter bomb, let alone if a small scale version is possible? Let alone a fusion bomb. What would the blast radius for such a weapon even be? Could you even detonate it inside an atmosphere and garuntee it's effects wouldn't be devastating.

Therobaric weapons are probably the best alternative, but even than, there's the issue with killing off your own forces with it than with the precise strike the thanix missle offers. It's like saying we don't need to use a predator drone strike against the enemy forces inside a occupied area, we can just use an atomic bomb and get the job done quicker, forgetting that the goal is not to destroy the planet the reapers are on and everything around it, but to take down the reaper without killing our own forces.

Ok first of all I will explain technology. Todays fusion weapons are two stage nuclear weapons. First stage a standard nuclear device is detonaded which needs plutonium, that explosion creates the energy and pressure needed for the second stage fusion reaction which creates most of the blast force. Most of the radiation is caused by the first stage and use of heavier metals for the fusion fuel. If used only hydrogen or its isotopes the fusion reaction is quite clean.it was cheaper and easier to build two stage weapons that can be easily transported maintained and have a more stable fusion fuel like lithium deuteride. 

As for antimatter then they can be used safely in space, after all the torpedoes that fighters fire have antimatter in them to cause the disruption of the shields. 

Second I am not talking about massively spamming the Reapers on the ground with fusion bombs, I am talking about taking their shields down long enough for someone to fire at it with your standard cannons or use high yield explosive missiles. Or a second clean fusion bomb. Nothing big even 500kt would do the job. Once they have losses with that strategy they would most likely try to stay off the planets as much as possible and in space you can use all the weapons you want.

[Cainhurst Crow]

katamuro wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

katamuro wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Thanix missile does not make sense. The whole reason for a Thanix cannon is that it shoots a  continious stream at extremely high velocities thus providing both kinetic and heat damage and due to its nature overwhelming shields. A thanix missile with a container of molten metal does not make sense. A fusion warhead would work better. Or a thermobaric weapon. Heat and air pressure would severely tax the shields which would allow further hits to destroy the reaper. Detonating small scale clean fusion or antimatter warheads would have made more sense.

Wouldn't that cuase massive damage to the planet and leave it uninhabitable afterwards? Also risking the loss of all ground forces in the area or possible the entire island? Do we even know if there is no risk of fallout of any kind of hazardous byproduct from detonating a anti-matter bomb, let alone if a small scale version is possible? Let alone a fusion bomb. What would the blast radius for such a weapon even be? Could you even detonate it inside an atmosphere and garuntee it's effects wouldn't be devastating.

Therobaric weapons are probably the best alternative, but even than, there's the issue with killing off your own forces with it than with the precise strike the thanix missle offers. It's like saying we don't need to use a predator drone strike against the enemy forces inside a occupied area, we can just use an atomic bomb and get the job done quicker, forgetting that the goal is not to destroy the planet the reapers are on and everything around it, but to take down the reaper without killing our own forces.

Ok first of all I will explain technology. Todays fusion weapons are two stage nuclear weapons. First stage a standard nuclear device is detonaded which needs plutonium, that explosion creates the energy and pressure needed for the second stage fusion reaction which creates most of the blast force. Most of the radiation is caused by the first stage and use of heavier metals for the fusion fuel. If used only hydrogen or its isotopes the fusion reaction is quite clean.it was cheaper and easier to build two stage weapons that can be easily transported maintained and have a more stable fusion fuel like lithium deuteride. 

As for antimatter then they can be used safely in space, after all the torpedoes that fighters fire have antimatter in them to cause the disruption of the shields. 

Second I am not talking about massively spamming the Reapers on the ground with fusion bombs, I am talking about taking their shields down long enough for someone to fire at it with your standard cannons or use high yield explosive missiles. Or a second clean fusion bomb. Nothing big even 500kt would do the job. Once they have losses with that strategy they would most likely try to stay off the planets as much as possible and in space you can use all the weapons you want.

But the reapers are blocking targeting systems from targeting them, this is stated in game, and happens twice (once on rannoch, the second time on earth.) The only way to hit them from orbit outside of bombarding the area, is to get someone down there with a precise device used for targeting, synch it to all of the fleet, and light up the reaper with the targeting lazer, and even that takes a long time in which the reaper can reposition itself and launch an attack at the targetor to kill them, as was seen on rannoch.

The weapons I am not doubting would be effective against the reapers, but without a precise target and adequate spece away from the ground forces, you will end up taking out large chuncks of your own allies along with the reaper, with probably every shot.

[katamuro]

Evacuating the forces, using fusion mines or targeting passively would all work. Targeting passively is your standard artillery strike, coordinates relayed to the cannon and it then firing on the position. Reapers move but not that fast. Plus to call in a strike you dont have to be right down there, you can easily be a few km or dozen km away, Reapers are large.

And throwing infantry at a Reaper is a recipe for a slaughter which we saw in ME3. Anyway what we saw in ME3 is somehow humans and other council species suddenly forgetting thousands of years of war and tactics.

[mass perfection]

What if they all fired Thanix Missiles?

[katamuro]

mass perfection wrote...

What if they all fired Thanix Missiles?

I was just saying that a Thanix missile is a silly thing. From description of the Thanix cannon technology a thanix missile just does not work. There is no way a Thanix missile would be any better than conventional one.

[David7204]

'Fusion mines,' huh?

[katamuro]

David7204 wrote...

'Fusion mines,' huh?

Same fusion bomb but detonated underneath the Reaper. Bury a bomb wait for a reaper to arrive and blow it up. 

[Sumthing]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

katamuro wrote...

Reapers are fallible as it states in ME3 that a few got taken out by backpack nukes.

That was a cannon, not a Reaper. And no, it was not mounted to a Destroyer. The wiki is wrong on this.

Read the Codex entry "Miracle at Palaven." It tells of how the Krogan brought Warp Bombs and Fission bombs to the resistance on Palaven, which were smuggled into Reaper ships across the planet, including Reaper Capital ships who opened up to indoctrinate the populations. The bombs were then detonated, destroying many Reapers from the inside. Considering the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction that the Krogan have, this would be a large threat to the Reapers.

Modifié par Sumthing, 14 juillet 2013 - 12:41 .

[David7204]

That's not going to work in space.

[Sumthing]

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Why?

[David7204]

Because space is far too vast for mines to ever work. None of these ideas would work. None of them are good ideas.

Let me counter all of this on a broader scale: The Reapers need to be defeated because of Shepard. Shepard, and Shepard's actions throughout the story of Mass Effect. Shepard. Not because some egghead in a lab invented a weapon that works really well. Not because some admiral comes up with a really cool tactic. Not because Cerberus comes up with some research. None of that. The story is about Shepard, so it's Shepard's actions that need to be meaningful.

Modifié par David7204, 14 juillet 2013 - 01:01 .

[katamuro]

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Well of course a fusion mine would not work in space. For each environment you need a different strategy. 

Modifié par katamuro, 14 juillet 2013 - 01:07 .

[mass perfection]

katamuro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Well of course a space mine would not work in space. For each environment you need a different strategy. 

Then it's not a space mine,moron.

[katamuro]

David7204 wrote...

Because space is far too vast for mines to ever work. None of these ideas would work. None of them are good ideas.

Let me counter all of this on a broader scale: The Reapers need to be defeated because of Shepard. Shepard, and Shepard's actions throughout the story of Mass Effect. Shepard. Not because some egghead in a lab invented a weapon that works really well. Not because some admiral comes up with a really cool tactic. Not because Cerberus comes up with some research. None of that. The story is about Shepard, so it's Shepard's actions that need to be meaningful.

You dont get the whole purpose of this discussion dont you? And dont go calling something not good without offering anything of your own. 
the purpose of this discussion was to take Shepard out of the equation, to look at the sidelines. At why and hows of the Reaper war and put it in context of real world. In real world wars are not won by a single hero or team. 

[katamuro]

mass perfection wrote...

katamuro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Well of course a fusion mine would not work in space. For each environment you need a different strategy. 

Then it's not a space mine,moron.

Now namecalling is not good. Dont call someone else a moron you might end up being one. I simply typed the word space instead of fusion.
Fixed.

[mass perfection]

katamuro wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

katamuro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Well of course a fusion mine would not work in space. For each environment you need a different strategy. 

Then it's not a space mine,moron.

Now namecalling is not good. Dont call someone else a moron you might end up being one. I simply typed the word space instead of fusion.
Fixed.

Won't happen again,moron.

[katamuro]

mass perfection wrote...

katamuro wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

katamuro wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not going to work in space.

Well of course a fusion mine would not work in space. For each environment you need a different strategy. 

Then it's not a space mine,moron.

Now namecalling is not good. Dont call someone else a moron you might end up being one. I simply typed the word space instead of fusion.
Fixed.

Won't happen again,moron.

So you just like insulting random people on the internet? Is your mental capacity really so limited that the only thing that comes out of you is utter idiocy? If you cant contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way dont waste anyones time including yours.

[Sumthing]

David7204 wrote...

Because space is far too vast for mines to ever work. None of these ideas would work. None of them are good ideas.

Let me counter all of this on a broader scale: The Reapers need to be defeated because of Shepard. Shepard, and Shepard's actions throughout the story of Mass Effect. Shepard. Not because some egghead in a lab invented a weapon that works really well. Not because some admiral comes up with a really cool tactic. Not because Cerberus comes up with some research. None of that. The story is about Shepard, so it's Shepard's actions that need to be meaningful.

Well, they are meaningful. Remember what Wrex said before the final battle? Even if we lose, you united the galaxy, and that is a victory itself. What did you do that was meaningful? You united the galaxy. You are the tip of a spear, not the head of a hammer. If the Reapers are defeated by an egghead's weapon, or an admiral's really cool tactic, or Cerberus research, then none of that would have been possible without Shepard uniting the galaxy in the first place. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
About space being to vast for mines to ever work, what about the ocean? How do mines work in the ocean? It is very vast, yet mines were still used. If Mines were hidden around strategic points, like planets and mass relays, then some serious damage could be done to the Reapers.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay so here's how we do it with Shepard. We find out that the Reapers are all networked through the spike in the center of the Citadel. That's where that AI is located, okay? So for everything to work and for Shepard to have meaning in this story and for us to win conventionally, the Normandy makes a flyby, to launch a 50 MT nuke to hit that tower, but Shepard wants to make sure it hits, so Shepard pulls a Slim Pickens from "Dr. Strangelove" and jumps on it and rides it home (except in that movie the bomb was stuck -- in ME3 it is not, we'll just make it the usual ME3 derp). The bomb hits the tower and reduces it to ash with nuclear fire! The reapers go dumber than mud fences and the fleet reduces them to scrap metal.

There you have it. A conventional victory with a heroic action! The end scene shows Admiral Hackett reading the eulogy for Shepard, and Shepard's LI laying flowers on an empty casket that symbolizes Shepard's heroic and unnecessary sacrifice to save the galaxy.

[giveamanafish...]

xlegionx wrote...

ismoketoomuch wrote...



From ME2. You also get the message directly from a meeting with the council or with just Anderson. It wasn't that believable then but the writers stuck with it... From about the middle of ME1 on, one of the basic premises of the plot was the unwillingness of the Citadel Council to beleive in the Reaper invasion.  This only changed at the beginning of ME3 with a full-blown invasion. As a result there wasn't that much time to install Thanix cannons.

Except the Council doesn't control the military decisions of each government's fleet. It's stated in the codex that by ME3 the Thanix Cannon is "common" among Alliance ships. This is a weapon designed by the turians, so the same can be assumed for their fleet.

So the two largest fleets in the galaxy (sans Reapers of course) *should* have weaponry significantly more powerful than that which they are using in ME3. I'm not saying the Thanix Cannon would even the odds completely, but they would do so somewhat.

Sorry for the delay. Actually according to the Codex the Thannix cannon is a minuturized version of the wepaon used by Soveriegn. This may have been due to technical constraints faced by the Turians. In any case, even tho the Thannix is commonly used by the time of ME3 it seems, based on its size, to have been adapted for use against conventional threats and not Reaper scale enemies. This would go along with what we are told consistently thruout the series, that there has been little belief in and little preparation for the Reaper threat.

Also is it ever stated that either the Alliance or Turian miltiary control their own budget?  Maybe the Turians, but remember the Turian councillor's famous "Ah yes Reapers. We have discounted that threat."

Modifié par ismoketoomuch, 14 juillet 2013 - 05:12 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reapers disintegrated into harmless dust from a virus they caught during their reaping of the Batarian systems. The scale itch did nasty things to the reapers. Once it latched onto them it became non-communicable to other species. That's why there are no reapers by the time I finish "The Citadel" DLC. I can then put the game away knowing the galaxy is safe.

Citadel Coup > Lock in the Love Interest > Take Back Omega and Kill Petrovsky > The Citadel DLC = THE PERFECT END

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 14 juillet 2013 - 05:10 .

[giveamanafish...]

Scale itch? You know I always wanted to make this confession. It goes back to ME1 and the airlock cutscenes with that moving bar of light that was supposed to have some sterilizing effect. I always kept my Shephards moving so that they avoided that thing, gotta protect the guys or girls as the case may be. That scale itch probably crept on board along with my medi-luddite shepard.

[Tyzx]

Probably because the Turian fleets and Alliance fleets did not have enough time to retrofit all the ship in the fleet with the cannons. Having only a year to retrofit a whole fleet with a new weapon cannot be an easy task, especially for the Alliance who would probably be busy and more inclined to building new ships to replace the ships lost in the battle of the citadel ( for the people who choose to rescue the council.)

As for the Turians, probably they thought that having the most amount of dreadnoughts in the galaxy at that time was a reason enough not to install the thanix cannons in such a rush. Call it Turian ego if you want.

We also know that the Salarians use Thanix Cannons, but we have not seen any action of them on screen except for the small excerpt from the Salarian Third Fleet War Asset information.

Probably energy constraints on using them on larger ships other than a frigate also makes equipping the thanix cannon not practical