285 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Tron Mega wrote...

its called an underdog story. usually those are pretty good.

which ME3 already is

and yes, a united prepared galaxy would obliterate ME3s version of the reapers.

easily. thats what i think.

Cool. That's like, your opinion, man. Unfortunately a united galaxy was nearly obliterated by "ME3's version" of the Reapers.

the only point in time i didnt think conventional victory was possible was after i shot myself into refuse ending and saw how bioware ran out of ideas by showing me the middle finger.

hmm, yeah....I realized it back in ME1 when it took the sacrifice of entire fleets in order to take down a single individual Reaper.

Refuse is a simple demonstration of lore consistency. We can't beat them in a straight up fight. Since you refuse to use the Crucible you're going to lose in a straight up fight.

[Erez Kristal]

I am almost with david on this one.
Goverment cannot tax citzens for all their money, and put it into military productions because there is a limit to how many taxes you can collect.
But, Mass effect lore is filled with remarkable space magic from day one.
How else could humanity advance as fast as it did. we wil just assume that in two year thanix was distrubed.
And if it was distrubed it was used in the war.

[Tonymac]

Basically, because the writers suck.

Thanix was a cannon in ME2. It was based off of Sovereign's weaponry, and used superheated metal fired at a fraction of the speed of light to overcome sheilds and melt hulls.

Then in ME3, its magically a missile, has no fire and forget capabilities - and generally sucks.

This is what you get when you hire writers with no technical backgrounds, no understanding of science or physics. Theoretically, the use of Thanix cannons could have helped significantly during the reaper war. The writers retconned it and made it a missile, essentially making it worthless.

[Redbelle]

katamuro wrote...

Basically what I am saying is that to force the "we cant defeat them conventionally" and the whole Catalyst scenario they had to make all the fleets and ships much weaker than before.

Also the Rannoch bit where we have a laser to shoot the Reaper, if the fleets in orbit really were shooting down to an area where the Reaper was it would have blanketed the area and killed Shepard too. Also the force of the shots would have been way more than the little explosions we saw. The scene always bugged me.

That was why they had a laser pointer. To guide all the ordanance to a specific spot.

But yes. I think the AoE wuold have been much higher from an orbital bombbardment. Unless they had specific ammo designed to work the way it did.

[katamuro]

All the guns fire a metal slug. Its a dumb projectile it goes only where the gun is pointed. Also a laser pointer is used to GUIDE something. A missile can do that because it can adjust its course and a piece of metal cant so the atmospheric conditions and just your standard planetary rotation.

Military people invented missiles and guided projectiles so that they can hit stuff far away with precision. As we know from a gunnery sergeant in ME2 the projectile once fired keeps moving in the same trajectory, it cant adjust its course.

[xlegionx]

erezike wrote...

I am almost with david on this one.
Goverment cannot tax citzens for all their money, and put it into military productions because there is a limit to how many taxes you can collect.
But, Mass effect lore is filled with remarkable space magic from day one.
How else could humanity advance as fast as it did. we wil just assume that in two year thanix was distrubed.
And if it was distrubed it was used in the war.

But the thing is that the government wouldn't need to tax people for all their money. Evidently based on the size of fleets in the galaxy, most of the major governments already have incredibly large defense/military budgets. So it's more of a matter of channeling their funding into outfitting their fleets with weaponry that has already been developed, which shouldn't be too hard given how dire the situation is. At most they might raise taxes by 1 or 2%, which would still do wonders to improve their budget.

As for David saying you can't just "switch weapons like legos" (not an exact quote but close enough), is that not what happened with the Normandy? Maybe for dreadnoughts that's the case, but dreadnoughts make up a minority of all the fleets. Plenty of cruisers and frigates to slap some Thanix cannons on.

[Fixers0]

Because the military is incompetant. Always.

[David7204]

The Normandy is a special case. First of all, Cerberus funded the upgrades, not the Alliance. Secondly, it already has a much more powerful than average drive core and fusion plant for it's stealth systems.

[xlegionx]

David7204 wrote...

The Normandy is a special case. First of all, Cerberus funded the upgrades, not the Alliance. Secondly, it already has a much more powerful than average drive core and fusion plant for it's stealth systems.

I'm sure that the Alliance, the Turian Hierarchy, and the other major militaries have more funding than Cerberus.

And ok, maybe the Normandy's drive core is bigger than usual. For a frigate. I would not be surprised if cruisers had drive cores and fusion plants of comparable size. And I believe cruisers make up the bulk of most fleets.

[JamesFaith]

xlegionx wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Normandy is a special case. First of all, Cerberus funded the upgrades, not the Alliance. Secondly, it already has a much more powerful than average drive core and fusion plant for it's stealth systems.

I'm sure that the Alliance, the Turian Hierarchy, and the other major militaries have more funding than Cerberus.

And ok, maybe the Normandy's drive core is bigger than usual. For a frigate. I would not be surprised if cruisers had drive cores and fusion plants of comparable size. And I believe cruisers make up the bulk of most fleets.

Quote form ME Wiki:

The stealth system is powered by an experimental piece of equipment called Tantalus Drive Core which is, proportionally, about twice the size of any other ship's core.

[xlegionx]

JamesFaith wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Normandy is a special case. First of all, Cerberus funded the upgrades, not the Alliance. Secondly, it already has a much more powerful than average drive core and fusion plant for it's stealth systems.

I'm sure that the Alliance, the Turian Hierarchy, and the other major militaries have more funding than Cerberus.

And ok, maybe the Normandy's drive core is bigger than usual. For a frigate. I would not be surprised if cruisers had drive cores and fusion plants of comparable size. And I believe cruisers make up the bulk of most fleets.

Quote form ME Wiki:

The stealth system is powered by an experimental piece of equipment called Tantalus Drive Core which is, proportionally, about twice the size of any other ship's core.

Key word proportionally. Cruisers are larger than frigates. The Normandy is a frigate.

[Tonymac]

You know - there comes a point where arguing about hypothetical and imaginary physics and ship drive core (like that means anything) sizes begins to become absurd.

I see good points in here - certainly stuff the Devs/writers should have thought of had they chosen this path. But they didn't. They torched the whole deal and ran.

[Tron Mega]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Tron Mega wrote...

its called an underdog story. usually those are pretty good.

which ME3 already is

and yes, a united prepared galaxy would obliterate ME3s version of the reapers.

easily. thats what i think.

Cool. That's like, your opinion, man. Unfortunately a united galaxy was nearly obliterated by "ME3's version" of the Reapers.

the only point in time i didnt think conventional victory was possible was after i shot myself into refuse ending and saw how bioware ran out of ideas by showing me the middle finger.

hmm, yeah....I realized it back in ME1 when it took the sacrifice of entire fleets in order to take down a single individual Reaper.

Refuse is a simple demonstration of lore consistency. We can't beat them in a straight up fight. Since you refuse to use the Crucible you're going to lose in a straight up fight.

it was an underdog story up untill everything that happened after the beam run. imagin if rocky defeated that russion beefcake because the russian beefcake told him how to beat him. rocky wouldnt be a very feel good story then would it?

ofcorse its my opinion. i even said so. isnt it obviously my opinon, or do i really need to say IMO after everything i say around here. just like its your speculation. you cant take that away from anyone. but ive always found it frustrating that people like youd think id want everything else in ME3 to stay the same, other then conventional victory. no bro, OTHER THINGS WOULD CHANGE TOO. do i really need to explain to you, i mean you really should have about the same ideas i or anyone else would have about a prepared and united galaxy driving the reapers back to dark space. so whys it so difficult for you to realize other things would change too???

the entire purpose of ME3 is to make a big enough meat shield to protect the crucible(which no one know a damn thing about, literally, NO ONE KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT IT!!!). thats ME3 in a nutshell.

ME3:the game about meat shields and whatyamajiggers.

soveriegn had friends there too. but that sortof hurts your argument so good thing youve conveniently left that part out.

woah!!! you just said lore consistency, IN A MASS EFFECT GAME!??!!?!?!! that made me LOL, and i never say LOL. if you missed it, im under the impression the reapers shielding isnt enough to make make them require a deus ex ending. so just because the game did a good job convincing you the reapers are impossible to kill, why dont you go do some planet scanning and let me know how difficult the reapers are to get away from.

[CrutchCricket]

Mcfly616 wrote...
You deliberately reject the facts the game gives you

Be sure to let me know when you post any.

Though I suppose passive-agressively refusing to engage the argument works just as well.

[xlegionx]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
You deliberately reject the facts the game gives you

Be sure to let me know when you post any.

Though I suppose passive-agressively refusing to engage the argument works just as well.

He's channeling his inner Wulfie/Seival

[rohanks]

While we're on the subject of under-utilised weapons...

M-920 Cain. I am pretty sure in the Priority:Earth segment my Shepard fought his way to a Kodiak Shuttle crash site, picked up an M-920 and brought down the Hades Cannon with one shot. That was the only appearance or reference to that weapon that I remember seeing in the game.

This weapon should have been more actively distributed amongst ground-forces for taking down Destroyer-Class Reapers. Maybe even a side-mission where Shepard has to travel to an M-920 manufacturing plant overrun by Reaper ground forces to restore production?

Which would perhaps be a more relevant N7 mission than restoring a poorly-defended fuel reactor?

Modifié par rohanks, 11 juillet 2013 - 04:09 .

[Laforgus]

What pisses me off more is not the Thanix Cannon issue, is of why i didn't see any Dreadnought firing their main gun.

A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one 20 kg. slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons of TNT, three times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.

I may be blind, but this doesn't look like a 38 KT explosion to me.



They used mostly Disruptor Torpedoes during the battle.

[katamuro]

its not an explosive force its a kinetic force equivalent to 38kt. If the shields absorbs enough there would not be. But yes i get it, human and other species ships were nerfed way too much. OR the reapers were made too strong. Considering there were at least a dozen frigates and cruisers and dozens of fighters per reaper there should have been more reaper casualties.

[Reorte]

Two years isn't very much time at all for a new high-tech military development to be designed, built, and widely deployed. As technology increases the times (and expenses) do too. IMO they'd be doing well if most ships were equipped with them after 10 years.

[Reorte]

katamuro wrote...

its not an explosive force its a kinetic force equivalent to 38kt. If the shields absorbs enough there would not be. But yes i get it, human and other species ships were nerfed way too much. OR the reapers were made too strong. Considering there were at least a dozen frigates and cruisers and dozens of fighters per reaper there should have been more reaper casualties.

Since the Reapers have curbstomped everyone for billions of years (and they're bound to have had a few setbacks along the way such as civilisations not having found the Citadel, or made much use of it if they had) then the Reapers have to be incredibly strong just to even look vaguely plausible.

[HellbirdIV]

Reorte wrote...

Two years isn't very much time at all for a new high-tech military development to be designed, built, and widely deployed. As technology increases the times (and expenses) do too.

Not once you start being able to efficiently synthesize materials and manufacture three-dimensional objects with a handheld device. As I mentioned early on in the thread, imagine if your smartphone came with a 3D printer app that was able to create a fully functional computer out of nothing but scrap materials; That's what an omni-tool does.

Now imagine that kind of fabrication technology employed large-scale in an entire factory, and then, an entire military industrial complex.

EDIT:

I'd also like to note that, having just finished replaying Mass Effect 1 yesterday, those blue orbs with blue contrails are most likely Thanix cannons.

Conventional mass accelerator rounds fired during the Battle of the Citadel by the Citadel forces are yellow and resemble tracer rounds as shown in most action movies, with little to no visible contrails.

The Geth, however, fire black lumps with visible blue contrails - what appears to be torpedoes, or perhaps just their slugs are larger, but either way, nothing resembling the Thanix cannons used in the space battle for Earth.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 11 juillet 2013 - 07:32 .

[KaiserShep]

rohanks wrote...

While we're on the subject of under-utilised weapons...

M-920 Cain. I am pretty sure in the Priority:Earth segment my Shepard fought his way to a Kodiak Shuttle crash site, picked up an M-920 and brought down the Hades Cannon with one shot. That was the only appearance or reference to that weapon that I remember seeing in the game.

This weapon should have been more actively distributed amongst ground-forces for taking down Destroyer-Class Reapers. Maybe even a side-mission where Shepard has to travel to an M-920 manufacturing plant overrun by Reaper ground forces to restore production?

Which would perhaps be a more relevant N7 mission than restoring a poorly-defended fuel reactor?

The Cain is my absolute favorite heavy weapon. It's pretty much the best anti-boss weapon in the entire game for me. The fact that it was able to take down a destroyer makes me wish I could still carry a heavy weapon around like in ME2. 

[Reorte]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Two years isn't very much time at all for a new high-tech military development to be designed, built, and widely deployed. As technology increases the times (and expenses) do too.

Not once you start being able to efficiently synthesize materials and manufacture three-dimensional objects with a handheld device. As I mentioned early on in the thread, imagine if your smartphone came with a 3D printer app that was able to create a fully functional computer out of nothing but scrap materials; That's what an omni-tool does.

Now imagine that kind of fabrication technology employed large-scale in an entire factory, and then, an entire military industrial complex.

It doesn't appear to work like that on a large scale at any rate, it's not as if military equipment is being produced by the shedload as soon as the Reapers appear. The actual construction of components isn't always a major part of the timescale nowdays (how long does it take to produce an already in production fighter jet?)

[HellbirdIV]

Reorte wrote...

It doesn't appear to work like that on a large scale at any rate, it's not as if military equipment is being produced by the shedload as soon as the Reapers appear.

I think that's precisely the point, military equipment IS being mass-produced. Have you read the info entries for a lot of the weapons introduced in DLC?

This turian antimateriel rifle is modified to kill Reaper enemies.
The Krysae's scope uses a rangefinder that adjusts to keep the target
in proper proportion to the shooter, which comes in useful when the
sniper is forced into close range. Its specialized ammunition is both
armor-piercing and explosive. In a desperate move, the turians released
its specifications over the extranet so that nearly anyone with a
fabricator could manufacture this weapon to help the war effort.

If anyone with a fabricator can make an advanced anti-materiel rifle, and Thanix cannons are small enough to be fitted to fighters... I really don't see why retrofitting is such an issue.

Besides, as I've said - the Codex entry states Thanix cannons are widely used by the Alliance. Keep in mind that the Thanix cannon was invented by the TURIANS, yet the ALLIANCE has enough of them for it to be considered a common weapon.

Basically, the Codex says Thanix cannons are used aplenty. Any argument to the contrary is silly and misguided.

[Reorte]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Reorte wrote...

It doesn't appear to work like that on a large scale at any rate, it's not as if military equipment is being produced by the shedload as soon as the Reapers appear.

I think that's precisely the point, military equipment IS being mass-produced. Have you read the info entries for a lot of the weapons introduced in DLC?

The point is that the manufacturing isn't the part that takes all the time. Already established small arms might be getting churned out readily, at the other end of the scale dreadnaughts certainly aren't. For something new and innovative look at the surprise (and expense) of Cerberus being able to build the SR2 - in two years.

Modifié par Reorte, 11 juillet 2013 - 08:24 .