285 réponses à ce sujet

[HellbirdIV]

Reorte wrote...

For something new and innovative look at the surprise (and expense) of Cerberus being able to build the SR2 - in two years.

Cerberus isn't a government agency with trillions of credits to spend, though. In ME1 they were a VERY small group, in ME2 they grew to being a small group but with some secret financial backing.

Then in ME3 they suddenly had an entire fleet of Cruisers and Fighters that could challenge the surviving Systems Alliance fleets... Wait, what?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Actually the graphics in the Palaven scenes when the Normandy arrived looked more like what the non-upgraded Normandy was firing at the Collector vessel instead of Thanix weaponry, and this was from the Turians. The stuff was totally ineffective against the reapers. Face the facts. This was intentional derp to demonstrate the effectiveness of this game's supa bad guys.

Had they used their thanix weaponry they would have shown some competence and been effective. You cannot show that you have even a prayer when you are trying to show essentially hopelessness. You must demonstrate those in charge are a bunch of idiots, and that your arsenal is total crap. This is called the "Good is dumb" trope.

You have to rely on one person, the player character and a super weapon that you discovered moments ago on Mars to defeat this completely overpowered foe. Only this combination can do it, and anything less than that will result in the player not feeling like a hero.

[rohanks]

KaiserShep wrote...

rohanks wrote...

While we're on the subject of under-utilised weapons...

M-920 Cain. I am pretty sure in the Priority:Earth segment my Shepard fought his way to a Kodiak Shuttle crash site, picked up an M-920 and brought down the Hades Cannon with one shot. That was the only appearance or reference to that weapon that I remember seeing in the game.

This weapon should have been more actively distributed amongst ground-forces for taking down Destroyer-Class Reapers. Maybe even a side-mission where Shepard has to travel to an M-920 manufacturing plant overrun by Reaper ground forces to restore production?

Which would perhaps be a more relevant N7 mission than restoring a poorly-defended fuel reactor?

The Cain is my absolute favorite heavy weapon. It's pretty much the best anti-boss weapon in the entire game for me. The fact that it was able to take down a destroyer makes me wish I could still carry a heavy weapon around like in ME2. 

It certainly did the job didn't it? Like you, missed the Heavy Weapons selection in ME3.  

[Steelcan]

@Julia, you sound like David.

[katamuro]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Two years isn't very much time at all for a new high-tech military development to be designed, built, and widely deployed. As technology increases the times (and expenses) do too.

Not once you start being able to efficiently synthesize materials and manufacture three-dimensional objects with a handheld device. As I mentioned early on in the thread, imagine if your smartphone came with a 3D printer app that was able to create a fully functional computer out of nothing but scrap materials; That's what an omni-tool does.

Now imagine that kind of fabrication technology employed large-scale in an entire factory, and then, an entire military industrial complex.

EDIT:

I'd also like to note that, having just finished replaying Mass Effect 1 yesterday, those blue orbs with blue contrails are most likely Thanix cannons.

Conventional mass accelerator rounds fired during the Battle of the Citadel by the Citadel forces are yellow and resemble tracer rounds as shown in most action movies, with little to no visible contrails.

The Geth, however, fire black lumps with visible blue contrails - what appears to be torpedoes, or perhaps just their slugs are larger, but either way, nothing resembling the Thanix cannons used in the space battle for Earth.

They could not have Thanix cannons before tha battle of the citadel. Sovereigns remains is what gave the technology to turians to develop it in the first place. So cant be used on Sovereign.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Steelcan wrote...

@Julia, you sound like David.

You do not understand my sarcasm.

[Steelcan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Julia, you sound like David.

You do not understand my sarcasm.

.  I got the sarcasm, just pointing it out.

[HellbirdIV]

katamuro wrote...

They could not have Thanix cannons before tha battle of the citadel. Sovereigns remains is what gave the technology to turians to develop it in the first place. So cant be used on Sovereign.

I think you missed my point, I was referring to the screenshots of blue weapons fire from Mass Effect 3 shown in this thread as being Thanix weaponry.

[eye basher]

This whole argument is null there's not a single ship in the galaxy that can take a single shot from a reaper and survive is like arming a cruise liner with battleship guns and sending it against a battle ship sure you can do damage but it only takes one shot to sink you.

[Redbelle]

eye basher wrote...

This whole argument is null there's not a single ship in the galaxy that can take a single shot from a reaper and survive is like arming a cruise liner with battleship guns and sending it against a battle ship sure you can do damage but it only takes one shot to sink you.

Codex indicated that tactics exist allowing non Reaper forces to outmaneuvre the Reaper ships and get shots off from behind them.

Thanix weapons would therefore be able to get in shots.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Once you've taken back the home world for the Quarians, I'll bet you're glad they put spinal mounted Thanix cannons on their Live Ships. Now those can go into battle against the reapers (leaving the civilians on Rannoch of course for those who are still thinking derp).

[katamuro]

Reorte wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Two years isn't very much time at all for a new high-tech military development to be designed, built, and widely deployed. As technology increases the times (and expenses) do too.

Not once you start being able to efficiently synthesize materials and manufacture three-dimensional objects with a handheld device. As I mentioned early on in the thread, imagine if your smartphone came with a 3D printer app that was able to create a fully functional computer out of nothing but scrap materials; That's what an omni-tool does.

Now imagine that kind of fabrication technology employed large-scale in an entire factory, and then, an entire military industrial complex.

It doesn't appear to work like that on a large scale at any rate, it's not as if military equipment is being produced by the shedload as soon as the Reapers appear. The actual construction of components isn't always a major part of the timescale nowdays (how long does it take to produce an already in production fighter jet?)

Actually because many of the fighter jet components are not produced for civilian industry they are made on small scale manufacturing plant. And it takes time. Plus actually wiring up a plane that used Fly by wire technology also takes a long time. Mainly because a lot of it has to be produced very accurately on very precise machinery which is extremely expensive and slow. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So now we're coming up with excuses for the dev team? Give me a break.

[Matthias King]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that after establishing the concept in ME2 of Thanix cannons and them being powerful enough to even the odds against Reapers, Bioware decided that in ME3 it was necessary to essentially ignore that development.

When developing ME3 and deciding to relentlessly bash players over the head of the impossibility of winning conventionally, the idea of Thanix cannons had to be largely ignored.

It's a case of Bioware's writers not thinking far enough ahead and then realizing they needed to more or less retcon some things in order for their vision of ME3's story to work.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Matthias King wrote...

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that after establishing the concept in ME2 of Thanix cannons and them being powerful enough to even the odds against Reapers, Bioware decided that in ME3 it was necessary to essentially ignore that development.

When developing ME3 and deciding to relentlessly bash players over the head of the impossibility of winning conventionally, the idea of Thanix cannons had to be largely ignored.

It's a case of Bioware's writers not thinking far enough ahead and then realizing they needed to more or less retcon some things in order for their vision of ME3's story to work.

Because a prepared galaxy is a smart galaxy. And they could not have that. Shepard had to be thrown in prison or relieved of duty for doing his or her job. The "brain trust" of the galaxy had to have the collective intellect of a single geth trooper (non-networked of course). Thanix cannons were over powered because they could kill reapers and might actually make the purpose of unifying the galaxy make some sense. It might give some hope. That couldn't happen. But a Deus Ex Machina would be a more suitable ending for the game. It would be more heroic. Yes! That's it! Let's do it that way! We'll sell it as a multitude of possibilities. Your legacy! Your choices matter! But in the end..... you die, the relays explode, and the Normandy crashes. The only difference is in which color.

Heroism + Sacrifice!!!!

[HellbirdIV]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But a Deus Ex Machina would be a more suitable ending for the game. It would be more heroic. Yes! That's it! Let's do it that way! We'll sell it as a multitude of possibilities. Your legacy! Your choices matter! But in the end..... you die, the relays explode, and the Normandy crashes. The only difference is in which color.

Heroism + Sacrifice!!!!

But, but, but, clumsy Judeo-Christian Adam and Eve imagery makes our game DEEP and SYMBOLIC, yo!

[AlexMBrennan]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that after establishing the concept in ME2 of Thanix cannons and them being powerful enough to even the odds against Reapers

Unfortunately you just making up stuff - all we learn is that Thanix cannons are more effective than our current guns, and that they are pretty good at taking out Collector cruisers. Without knowing anything about Reaper number and capabilities (if Thanix cannons give a frigate the firepower of a cruiser then you are still going to lose against an enemy with shields "impervious to dreadnought fire"), you cannot possibly make any deductions about the odds of winning a war.

Yes, not showing the Thanix cannons being used was lazy, but the war being unwinnable (despite Thanix cannons) does not technically contradict established lore.

And if you really want to go down that path then you should remember that it take much more than even odds to win a guerilla war because that is what we'd be facing if our forces were able to match the Reapers in a straight fight - basically, imagine Afghanistan if the Taliban were able to outrun bullets, teleport and had nukes.

[DeinonSlayer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Once you've taken back the home world for the Quarians, I'll bet you're glad they put spinal mounted Thanix cannons on their Live Ships. Now those can go into battle against the reapers (leaving the civilians on Rannoch of course for those who are still thinking derp).

But... but... Farixen! We're supposed to be angry with them for it! [/paraderp]

Never mind that Udina orders all human civilian ships armed right out of the starting gate.

[Matthias King]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that after establishing the concept in ME2 of Thanix cannons and them being powerful enough to even the odds against Reapers

Unfortunately you just making up stuff - all we learn is that Thanix cannons are more effective than our current guns, and that they are pretty good at taking out Collector cruisers. Without knowing anything about Reaper number and capabilities (if Thanix cannons give a frigate the firepower of a cruiser then you are still going to lose against an enemy with shields "impervious to dreadnought fire"), you cannot possibly make any deductions about the odds of winning a war.

Yes, not showing the Thanix cannons being used was lazy, but the war being unwinnable (despite Thanix cannons) does not technically contradict established lore.

And if you really want to go down that path then you should remember that it take much more than even odds to win a guerilla war because that is what we'd be facing if our forces were able to match the Reapers in a straight fight - basically, imagine Afghanistan if the Taliban were able to outrun bullets, teleport and had nukes.

I'm not making anything up.  It took a lot of ships to take out a Reaper capital ship pre-Thanix.  Then they reverse-engineered Sovereign's weaponry to create Thanix, which are far more powerful than the pre-Thanix ship weaponry.  To say that DOESN'T even the odds is a fallacy.

No one, including me, is trying to imply that Thanix weaponry makes an Alliance dreadnought an equal to a Reaper capital ship, however, it does put them on much more even footing than they were pre-Thanix.

The problem is that their vision of ME3 required the state of the war to be like throwing rocks at a tank, and that's something that Thanix weaponry would have conflicted with, and that was my entire point, but if you want to miss the point, then go right ahead.

[JonathonPR]

The Thanix cannon was a hinderance to the justification of the writers narrative so it was ignored.

The strength of the Reapers increased over time to create a "Richard Pryor" effect. The player has to run along the course of the GMs choosing or the threat that they can not fight and win against will catch up. Another good example are the mists of Ravenloft. Don't forget that Sovereign had to go through a great deal of work with the Geth and before that the Rachni to not have to fight. People who have the opinion that having more advanced weapons and armor makes them invulnerable have experience with neither. With a soldier comparison the Reapers have modern combat rifles. The cycle uses cross bows. The Thanix cannon is the Henry rifle. The cross bow is still a lethal threat to the modern soldier in full armor.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Because BioWare didn't try very hard. It was a hindrance to what they wanted, and wasn't part of the story they wanted to tell.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 11 juillet 2013 - 10:23 .

[David7204]

Look at the extent of the delusions here.

I am just amazed at how so many people can convince themselves that Thanix cannons as superweapons are a brilliant idea that BioWare threw away instead of a stupidly contrived weapon from a economical and military perspective and an unsatisfying and poorly written solution from a narrative perspective.

I really am starting to think I've been overestimating the BSN for the months i've been on here. Because I am continually blown away at the sheer incapability of posters to understand the childishly simple concept that not everyone in the galaxy is Shepard, and thus not 'derp' for not devoting their lives to building dreadnoughts.

Is this seriously the best you can do?

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 01:42 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David, you're not getting this, are you? You're operating out of galactic derp. I remember when the Israelis put then modern 105s (105 mm cannons) on their Sherman Tanks back in the 1960s so they could take out the 1960 era Soviet made tanks the Egyptians and Syrians had. They were essentially glass cannons, but they worked. You're probably too young to remember that. That's what preparing is about.

And who said anything about dreadnoughts? You can probably build a lot more cruisers. Hit a reaper capital ship with enough cruiser thanix fire and they'll go down. They'll cost less to build, too. Kinetic barriers are ineffective against Thanix cannons. That's why the Alliance switched to Thanix missiles -- they wanted to give the reapers a fighting chance.

[Kataphrut94]

If they had shown Thanix cannons being used in cutscenes, it wouldn't have changed anything. The Reapers would have shrugged those off too. The story has always established how unstoppable the Reapers are and how hopeless and desperate it is to try and resist them. That has been the case about them since Mass Effect 1 and being able to shrug off conventional weaponry is a big part of that.

As someone posted elsewhere, being able to blow up a Collector Ship (which is practically hollow on the inside) doesn't establish them as being a magic bullet against the Reapers, especially not when the Collector Ship can be destroyed without it. It would be better to go with my idea of sticking Silaris armour on every ship in the fleet so our boys can survive more than one shot from a Reaper cannon. It may not seem like much, but one shot can mean the difference between life and death. Just ask Jack.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Deus Ex Machinas always work better than preparations.