285 réponses à ce sujet

[RadicalDisconnect]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, you're not getting this, are you? You're operating out of galactic derp. I remember when the Israelis put then modern 105s (105 mm cannons) on their Sherman Tanks back in the 1960s so they could take out the 1960 era Soviet made tanks the Egyptians and Syrians had. They were essentially glass cannons, but they worked. You're probably too young to remember that. That's what preparing is about.

And who said anything about dreadnoughts? You can probably build a lot more cruisers. Hit a reaper capital ship with enough cruiser thanix fire and they'll go down. They'll cost less to build, too. Kinetic barriers are ineffective against Thanix cannons. That's why the Alliance switched to Thanix missiles -- they wanted to give the reapers a fighting chance.

Let's think of it in another way. If the Iraqis got the 120 mm M256 cannons and M829A1 APFSDS, would they have stood any better chance against Coalition forces like the M1A1 Abrams? No, they would still get whipped. Why? Coalition had superior fire control systems.

Simply upping your firepower may improve the chances, but it won't even the odds. Not to mention that a Reaper's cannon is almost certainly more powerful and has longer range than a Thanix due to sheer size. That's not even taking into account better targeting systems and sensors.

If anything, cutscenes have demonstrated both sides to be completely incompetent. Because tell me, why is it that the organics always get the first shot at the Reapers in cutscenes? Reapers have a tendency to completely ignore their advantages and engage at point blank. Not that organics are much better, as seen over Palaven, where the Turians missed most of their shots at kilometer long targets within visual range.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 12 juillet 2013 - 04:45 .

[giveamanafish...]

From ME2. You also get the message directly from a meeting with the council or with just Anderson. It wasn't that believable then but the writers stuck with it.

Sorry, let's edit that for clarity. From about the middle of ME1 on, one of the basic premises of the plot was the unwillingness of the Citadel Council to beleive in the Reaper invasion.  This only changed at the beginning of ME3 with a full-blown invasion. As a result there wasn't that much time to install Thanix cannons.

Modifié par ismoketoomuch, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:36 .

[Matthias King]

David7204 wrote...

Look at the extent of the delusions here.

I am just amazed at how so many people can convince themselves that Thanix cannons as superweapons are a brilliant idea that BioWare threw away instead of a stupidly contrived weapon from a economical and military perspective and an unsatisfying and poorly written solution from a narrative perspective.

You're missing the point.  I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the point is that no one is touting Thanix cannons as super weapons that would trivialize the Reapers, so don't characterize our point that way.

The point is that to remove Thanix weaponry from the narrative drastically changes that narrative.  And I don't just mean the narrative of ME3, but the overall narrative of Mass Effect and the war against the Reapers.

Reverse-engineering Sovereign's weaponry to create Thanix weaponry was a major point in the narrative which was then swept aside to push Bioware's 'conventional-victory-is-impossible' agenda, which ultimately justified their storyline of the Crucible being the one and only hope for victory.

The existence of Thanix weaponry didn't guarantee conventional victory and no one is claiming that it would have, however it did make it a much more plausible possibility.  Instead of losing six dreadnoughts for every Reaper capital ship, maybe two dreadnoughts could take out a capital ship, or perhaps a few frigates could stick and move.

I think what most people who take issue with the omission of Thanix weaponry are truly taking issue with is the fact that said omission was a big part of what paved the way for a massive plot-device driven resolution to the narrative, and ultimately the starbrat and everything associated with that, instead of something more satisfying.

[xlegionx]

ismoketoomuch wrote...



From ME2. You also get the message directly from a meeting with the council or with just Anderson. It wasn't that believable then but the writers stuck with it.

Sorry, let's edit that for clarity. From about the middle of ME1 on, one of the basic premises of the plot was the unwillingness of the Citadel Council to beleive in the Reaper invasion.  This only changed at the beginning of ME3 with a full-blown invasion. As a result there wasn't that much time to install Thanix cannons.

Except the Council doesn't control the military decisions of each government's fleet. It's stated in the codex that by ME3 the Thanix Cannon is "common" among Alliance ships. This is a weapon designed by the turians, so the same can be assumed for their fleet.

So the two largest fleets in the galaxy (sans Reapers of course) *should* have weaponry significantly more powerful than that which they are using in ME3. I'm not saying the Thanix Cannon would even the odds completely, but they would do so somewhat.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, you're not getting this, are you? You're operating out of galactic derp. I remember when the Israelis put then modern 105s (105 mm cannons) on their Sherman Tanks back in the 1960s so they could take out the 1960 era Soviet made tanks the Egyptians and Syrians had. They were essentially glass cannons, but they worked. You're probably too young to remember that. That's what preparing is about.

And who said anything about dreadnoughts? You can probably build a lot more cruisers. Hit a reaper capital ship with enough cruiser thanix fire and they'll go down. They'll cost less to build, too. Kinetic barriers are ineffective against Thanix cannons. That's why the Alliance switched to Thanix missiles -- they wanted to give the reapers a fighting chance.

Let's think of it in another way. If the Iraqis got the 120 mm M256 cannons and M829A1, would they have stood any better chance against Coalition forces like the M1A1 Abrams? No, they would still get whipped. Why? Coalition had superior fire control systems.

Simply upping your firepower may improve the chances, but it won't even the odds. Not to mention that a Reaper's cannon is almost certainly more powerful and has longer range than a Thanix due to sheer size. That's not even taking into account better targeting systems and sensors.

If anything, cutscenes have demonstrated both sides to be completely incompetent. Because tell me, why is it that the organics always get the first shot at the Reapers in cutscenes? Reapers have a tendency to completely ignore their advantages and engage at point blank.

Not that organics are much better, as seen over Palaven, where the Turians missed most of their shots at kilometer long targets within visual range.

That is why you use your targeting computer when you line up shots. You do not "eyeball it". Am I clear marine?"

Did you also notice the sound (not that things are supposed to make sound in a vacuum) the guns were making? Derp ..... Derp........ Derp........ Derp

The thing is that they made it so that we needed a DEM to win. That's what they wanted. Period. The Reapers had no weakness. They needed to have a weakness for us to win in any other manner.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juillet 2013 - 04:15 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 See if you can conquer Mirror Match at Armax Arsenal Arena solo, on Insanity, with all modifiers (minus Player Dmg+) enabled, and with only 1 life (no do-over after your first try). That's what conventional-warfare looks like against the Reapers: AI vs. human, outnumbered, out-gunned, scarcity of needed supplies, and only one shot to get it right.

Your Thanix Cannon equivalent would probably be the Prothean Particle Rifle. It does some sweet damage when it gets hot, especially with an ammo power applied. Thing is, you also have to be able to sustain that fire, and that requires slipping out of cover (soft or hard) a bit and thus leaving you vulnerable to the Shepards' power spam.

That's what CV proponents don't get. They lay out these elaborate plans for taking the Reapers straight-up and it sounds as though the enemy is just going to sit back in the defensive and just let you shoot them down. They won't. Once they see you they'll go on the offensive and the tables are turned completely (notice that's exactly what happens when the fleets arrive at Earth).

Try this tactic against the Shepards at AAA. Actually, don't: it doesn't work. While your ass is hanging out of cover, either the power-spam will stagger you and force you out -- at which point, you get shot-down and die -- or at least one of them will bull-rush you and force a close-combat encounter -- at which point, you get shot/beaten-down and die.

I've only ever seen anyone beat Mirror Match on those settings with a the help of a broken-overpowered weapon (like the Venom shotgun). That's why Hackett doesn't entertain convetional tactics against the Reapers for a second, and relies on the Crucible instead -- because he's not a moron!! The enemy has every advantage imaginable here. We only have one shot. If that's what you're up against, you better have an ace-in-the-hole. Like, a really, damn good weapon.

[xlegionx]

@HYR 2.0:

Except the idea that the Crucible could be safely transported across the warzone above Earth is utter nonsense. The idea of a "Shield" fleet is absurd when the opposing force is stronger and more numerous and can come at you from literally all directions.

Also, as people have mentioned, the Reapers' weapons outrange those of galaxy's fleets, so the Shield fleet could literally not do anything to protect the Crucible if the Reapers didn't derp as much as they do in ME3.

Conventional strategy > stupid strategy. The Crucible was a dumb plan to begin when people didn't know what it did. It got worse when they continued with the Crucible plan after the Citadel had been moved to Earth.

[David7204]

No, reverse engineering Sovereign's weapon was never a 'major plot point.' That's just ridiculous. The only information of it in ME 2 was basically the entry for the research upgrade. Nobody even mentions it aside from a quick line during the Suicide Mission.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:02 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

xlegionx wrote...

@HYR 2.0:

Except the idea that the Crucible could be safely transported across the warzone above Earth is utter nonsense. The idea of a "Shield" fleet is absurd when the opposing force is stronger and more numerous and can come at you from literally all directions.

Also, as people have mentioned, the Reapers' weapons outrange those of galaxy's fleets, so the Shield fleet could literally not do anything to protect the Crucible if the Reapers didn't derp as much as they do in ME3.

Conventional strategy > stupid strategy. The Crucible was a dumb plan to begin when people didn't know what it did. It got worse when they continued with the Crucible plan after the Citadel had been moved to Earth.

It requires a risky plan to execute, sure, but the strategy itself is very sound.

No amount of resources is going to make our fleets outnumber or outgun the Reapers.

OTOH, if you can use those same resources to build a device that does the work we need for us...

By the way: post-coup, Hackett says the scientists are "convinced" the Crucible can/will destroy the Reapers.

[David7204]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, you're not getting this, are you? You're operating out of galactic derp. I remember when the Israelis put then modern 105s (105 mm cannons) on their Sherman Tanks back in the 1960s so they could take out the 1960 era Soviet made tanks the Egyptians and Syrians had. They were essentially glass cannons, but they worked. You're probably too young to remember that. That's what preparing is about.

.

Tell me, what exactly do you think this is supposed to prove? Or even indicate?

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:12 .

[xlegionx]

But still, as soon as the Citadel was moved to Earth the Crucible should have either A) been scrapped so the resources would not be completely wasted, or hidden away somewhere with a skeleton crew in cryo-stasis to wait out the Reapers and then go to the Citadel.

Like you just said, they outnumber and outgun us. As soon as they saw (read: detected. they likely knew of it's presence long before it reached Earth and the Citadel) something being escorted, they should have known something was up and attack the thing being escorted. If they could spare the forces to have destroyers and capital ships fight infantry forces, then they could easily overwhelm Shield fleet.

But artistic integrity came first for the writers, so the Reapers derped like there's no tomorrow.

Also, I'm not saying Thanix cannons would level the playing field completely, but it would do so slightly.

[David7204]

The Thanix cannons are not going to make a game-changing difference against the Reapers, and it would be lousy writing for several different reasons if they did.

That's really the end of it. Find a smarter argument than this.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:23 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It would be lousy writing. That's because requiring a MacGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina to win is far better writing than having a galaxy that actually did any preparation, commanders with any brains, or if they gave the enemy any sort of weakness. Having to use those two things were far better than giving them one weakness that we discovered during the course of the story (over the three games other than arrogance) that we could use against them to get a victory. But that would require not derping and preparing so that would totally be out of the question. So I guess a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina is the supreme form of victory!

Just warning. Mercury is in retrograde and I'm in a particularly foul mood.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:39 .

[David7204]

Enough whining. To validate the extensive foreshadowing established, the Reapers need to bulldoze the galaxy, and that's, again, really the end of it. The Reapers having a stupidly pointless and contrived weakness (which would really be any blatant physical weakness) very mediocre or bad writing. The allied forces having a magical super-technology or super-tactic would be very mediocre or bad writing. And yes, that includes the Crucible. But it also includes this.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:48 .

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Enough whining. To validate the extensive foreshadowing established, the Reapers need to bulldoze the galaxy, and that's, again, really the end of it. The Reapers having a stupidly pointless weakness would be very mediocre or bad writing. The allied forces having a magical super-technology or super-tactic would be very mediocre or bad writing, and yes, that includes the Crucible. But it also includes this.

And how would Thanix cannons (something that he Reapers themselves have, mind you) constitute as a "magical super technology" or "super tactic"? All it would serve to so is make the conflict an actual war, won with actual fighting.

[David7204]

See, here you go and say "All it would serve to do" is if we're talking about going to the store and buying a load of bread. Instead of solving a conflict lasting millions of years and an enemy that bested thousands of civilizations.

The idea that a single fairly mundane weapon could be a total game changing technology against an immensely powerful enemy sure as hell sounds like a 'magic technology' to me. Particularly since it basically necessitates that every civilization in existence failed to figured out such technology for no real reason, despite it clearly being leaps and bounds above anything else availiable.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:11 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Enough whining. To validate the extensive foreshadowing established, the Reapers need to bulldoze the galaxy, and that's, again, really the end of it. The Reapers having a stupidly pointless weakness would be very mediocre or bad writing. The allied forces having a magical super-technology or super-tactic would be very mediocre or bad writing, and yes, that includes the Crucible. But it also includes this.

And how would Thanix cannons (something that he Reapers themselves have, mind you) constitute as a "magical super technology" or "super tactic"? All it would serve to so is make the conflict an actual war, won with actual fighting.

David doesn't want a war won with actual fighting. David wants the reapers to bulldoze the galaxy, but if they bulldoze the galaxy that pretty much takes care of that "how do we get to win without space magic?" part, doesn't it?

* They'd simply glass our manufacturing centers from orbit and we'd have no way to stop them.
* This means no replacement ships for what we lose.
* Then they just land on the planets and begin to do what they do best.... reap.
* This leaves us with only one possibility: that Shepard finds

Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One of the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

Sorry, wrong story......

Well you get the point. Shepard needs to find the one ring and destroy it inside the Citadel otherwise we lose. So there you go, David. You've reduced us to having to find a miracle weapon.

[David7204]

I've done no such thing. Although an unconventional solution to the Reapers would certainly be necessary if Shepard is a complete screw-up. 

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

I've done no such thing.

Then offer something substantial instead of trolling.

[David7204]

It would be possible to have a conventional victory with hard science and tactics, meaningful heroism, and choices that matter without significantly altering the Reapers or the preparations made prior to ME 3. (As long as the player has a perfect or near-perfect playthough, of course.) But you're going to have to do a whole hell of a lot better than this. You're not going to come up with anything if all you can see is thanix cannons and dreadnoughts.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:18 .

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

The idea that a single fairly mundane weapon could be a total game changing technology against an immensely powerful enemy sure as hell sounds like a 'magic technology' to me.

It must be magical on their end as well, then, because it's completely derived from what the enemy has. Mind you, studying enemy weapons and developing your own versions of them has been happening as log as humans have been fighting.

Particularly since it basically necessitates that every civilization in existence failed to figured out such technology for no real reason, despite it clearly being leaps and bounds above anything else availiable.

Except it's a major plot point in the trilogy that the cycle species only evolve and develop along largely pre-determined paths as chosen by the Reapers via mass effect technology. It's painfully clear that our cycle is an outlier, so we WOULD have access to technologies that the others didn't. Did you just never talk to Vigil or the Catalyst?

[David7204]

No. Because the Reapers never use such technology as the foundation to defeat a far more powerful and advanced enemy. It's not 'magic' for them at all. Just a weapon.

Why don't you explain to me how the Mass Relays prevent galactic civilization from developing Thanix-like technology?

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:27 .

[Ticonderoga117]

o Ventus wrote...


Except it's a major plot point in the trilogy that the cycle species only evolve and develop along largely pre-determined paths as chosen by the Reapers via mass effect technology. It's painfully clear that our cycle is an outlier, so we WOULD have access to technologies that the others didn't. Did you just never talk to Vigil or the Catalyst?

I would argue that up until ME2 we weren't. Maybe a few anomalies here and there, but once we bagged a Reaper and could do sane research (Thanix) instead of insane research (Let's make tons of husks!) things looked better for our cycle.

Sadly that wasn't really touched upon much.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

No. Because the Reapers never use such technology as the foundation to defeat a far more powerful and advanced enemy. It's not 'magic' for them at all. Just a weapon.

So because the Reapers use it, it's okay, but because we use it, it's magical?

Go away until you can make an actual argument.

[David7204]

Maybe I should say this nice and slow for you.

The Reapers never use Thanix technology as a sole solution to defeat a more powerful and advanced enemy they would otherwise surely lose to.

Do you understand the difference between a weapon being used and a weapon being used and basically being the sole reason for victory over an immensely powerful and advanced enemy that has defeated thousands of civilizations?

I can assure you there is a very important distinction.

Modifié par David7204, 12 juillet 2013 - 07:39 .