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Thanix Cannons - Why did almost nobody use them?


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#176
DarthLaxian

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

You're outnumbered and outgunned. You need to change one of those things to have any chance of winning.

The enemy has been arming up for millennia. Next to that, three years of preperation does not even register.


they may have been destroying non warned people for ages (and no, they have not been arming for ages, their technology was STAGNANT as in: it didn't change since the first reaper! - so after looking at all those examples of reaper tech we had, a countermeasure should have been able to be produced....and if it was something as primitive as fighters with disruptor-torpedoes and nukes piloted by VI doing kamikaze runs - using the torpedoes to weaken the kinetic barriers in a spot and then using their own barriers and say an interference generator or something to fly through and blowing the reaper up!) - but warned and prepared people that are not full of crap (like the council, the Alliance (and their military - which GROUNDS/RELIVES Sheppard...how stupid can you be - with all the evidence pointing towards them needing Sheppard) and a dumbed down Protagonist (hell - if i were Sheppard, i would have NEVER gone back just to be stuck in jail - i would have to much preparing to do...and if Alliance, Council (and the races that form said council) and other would not help me prepare, then i would abandon them (prothean style sleeper pods and a powersource that can last long enough) and help the next cycle - my Sheppard is no one who likes being stonewalled and if no one helps him, then he tells you to eat crap and die))?

no way, the reapers always fough unprepared, badly (in comparison to the reapers themselves) armed and disorganized troops that had been disconnected from the larger whole (shutting down the relays!)...

yeah, fighting them would have still been hard as hell, but them just waltzing in, with us being able to do squat and relying on crapible to win? - sorry, bad writing IMHO that would be like star wars if in the end a pink dressed ewok with the force would have done a Dobby (Harry Potter) and killed the emperor....bah

greetings LAX
ps: saying conventional victory is impossible is lame and shows inflexible thinking IMHO ;)

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:02 .


#177
CrutchCricket

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HYR 2.0 wrote...
There is no frickin way the galaxy -- even at the highest possible EMS -- will outnumber or even match Reaper #s.

PERIOD!

And? Since when has your squad "outnumbered or matched" the enemy? That was never the point. Either stick to the analogy or dismiss it.


Thanix Cannon = PPR. Go back and read why.

Why? Because "imma firin mah lazer"? The PPR is only aesthetically similar to a thanix and is in no way comparable in either function, role on the battlefield or development.

Now if you're talking about the Collector Particle Beam from ME2 (i.e the heavy weapon), that may be a closer comparison. And if you had that in your match, I think things would go a little differently.


You're outnumbered and outgunned. You need to change one of those things to have any chance of winning.

The enemy has been arming up for millennia. Next to that, three years of preperation does not even register.

Yeah ubiquitous thanix canons on more ships that we've been building for the past three years would fall under changing the outgunned part. It's not certain that it'd be enough (given the other advantages the Reapers have) but it'd be something.

And I disagree about your "arming up for milennia" idea.  One tool being improved over an intederminate time (indoctrination) does not imply constant upgrading on all fronts. The Reapers are stagnant technologically because they're already superior to anything developed and they perpetuate a cyclical monopoly.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
It seems EC Refuse would prove that wrong.

Uhh, no, EC refuse happens after everyone's already dicked around on their own for as long as they could without going extinct and only banded together at the last moment. If everyone had united in Batarian space before they got roflstomped, with upgraded ships and weapons, ready for the Reapers it may have gone a little differently.

#178
Reorte

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CrutchCricket wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
There is no frickin way the galaxy -- even at the highest possible EMS -- will outnumber or even match Reaper #s.

PERIOD!

And? Since when has your squad "outnumbered or matched" the enemy? That was never the point. Either stick to the analogy or dismiss it.

Whilst Shepard is supposed to be good the idea that (s)he's capable of doing what every single living creature for the past several billion years could not, purely on their own merits, is totally and utterly ridiculous and taking the "Space Jesus" idea that certain writers seem to have fallen for to even more ludicrous extremes.

#179
Tron Mega

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CrutchCricket wrote...

Yeah ubiquitous thanix canons on more ships that we've been building for the past three years would fall under changing the outgunned part. It's not certain that it'd be enough (given the other advantages the Reapers have) but it'd be something.

And I disagree about your "arming up for milennia" idea.  One tool being improved over an intederminate time (indoctrination) does not imply constant upgrading on all fronts. The Reapers are stagnant technologically because they're already superior to anything developed and they perpetuate a cyclical monopoly.


thats the thing the hurts the reapers. reaper #1 is exactly like reaper #345. you dont need more then one idea to beat the reapers becuase what beats one reaper will be all the other reapers.

ofcorse they have different cores but WTF who cares about the reaper cores, only as soon as bioware makes sense of that, then ill start caring about the proto human reaper.

ech. im so sick of ME being so stupidly written.

#180
teh DRUMPf!!

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CrutchCricket wrote...

And? Since when has your squad "outnumbered or matched" the enemy? That was never the point. Either stick to the analogy or dismiss it.


Round-1 & -2 of Mirror Match = 3 enemies.

Shepard + 2 squadmates = 3 players.

Players match enemies in numbers for the better part of the game.


Why? Because "imma firin mah lazer"? The PPR is only aesthetically similar to a thanix and is in no way comparable in either function, role on the battlefield or development.


Heh, I figured you'd say something like that.

Let me repeat myself:

The Thanix cannon requires continuous fire on its (Reaper) target to do the required amount of damage to kill it. The PPR is one of the better DPS weapons available and the best in terms of continuous fire. It is especially good against defenses (like the Thanix vs. shields/armor) with mods and an ammo-power. Turns out, though, it's hard to sustain fire on an enemy that can shoot you down more easily than you can shoot them down. Case in point.


Yeah ubiquitous thanix canons on more ships that we've been building for the past three years would fall under changing the outgunned part. It's not certain that it'd be enough (given the other advantages the Reapers have) but it'd be something.


The Crucible also lets us "outgun" them; it's just not fan-approved as the Thanix Cannon clearly is!


And I disagree about your "arming up for milennia" idea.  One tool being improved over an intederminate time (indoctrination) does not imply constant upgrading on all fronts. The Reapers are stagnant technologically because they're already superior to anything developed and they perpetuate a cyclical monopoly.


What I'm trying to say there is this: whatever prototype "Reaper" the Catalyst started with was "perfected" over an untold amount of time and upgraded-out, after which point they've been spending centuries upon centuries creating more of these protoypes. Sovereign took on the Citadel fleets and Alliance's. The Rannoch Destroyer required the quarians' entire navy. Creating one Reaper is as good as us creating a fleet. In that, they've been at it a lot longer than us!

Uhh, no, EC refuse happens after everyone's already dicked around on their own for as long as they could without going extinct and only banded together at the last moment. If everyone had united in Batarian space before they got roflstomped, with upgraded ships and weapons, ready for the Reapers it may have gone a little differently.


"A little" is right -- instead of getting crushed miserably, we get crushed a hair less miserably. :wizard:

#181
CrutchCricket

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Reorte wrote...
Whilst Shepard is supposed to be good the idea that (s)he's capable of doing what every single living creature for the past several billion years could not, purely on their own merits, is totally and utterly ridiculous and taking the "Space Jesus" idea that certain writers seem to have fallen for to even more ludicrous extremes.

And yet we do that very thing that no one's been able to do for all this time. Does a deus ex machina with utterly inane circumstances really mitigate that for you?


HYR 2.0 wrote...
Round-1 & -2 of Mirror Match = 3 enemies.

Shepard + 2 squadmates = 3 players.

Players match enemies in numbers for the better part of the game.

Are you sure? It's been a while but I remember a lot more than three enemies, even in the first round. Edit: Checked, it is three but they respawn.

Regardless I disagree that we couldn't match Reaper numbers. The question is what would we match them with. It sure as hell isn't going to be dreadnaughts, even in three years. So even if we accept that it's 3 and 3 in the analogy and 1000 and 1000 in the battle, Reapers still have the upper hand.

But don't try and tell me equipping the squad (and yourself) with Predators and Avengers is the same as equipping them with Acolytes and Reegars (which incidentally, would be a better analog for thanix canons (except its range), at least in function.


The Thanix cannon requires continuous fire on its (Reaper) target to do the required amount of damage to kill it. The PPR is one of the better DPS weapons available and the best in terms of continuous fire. It is especially good against defenses (like the Thanix vs. shields/armor) with mods and an ammo-power. Turns out, though, it's hard to sustain fire on an enemy that can shoot you down more easily than you can shoot them down. Case in point.

No it doesn't. It lacks the ramp up function of the PPR. The thanix does consistent damage throughout its duration and its damage is much higher in its class, than what the PPR does for infantry. The more accurate analog is the Collector Particle Beam or the Reegar though the latter is obviously range-restrained.

I'll also take this opportunity to say the difficulty of mirror match is significantly raised due to the Arena maps being small and largely open. If you could play in the MP maps, it'd be a whole different story, and as far as the analogy goes, we have no such constraints in space.


The Crucible also lets us "outgun" them; it's just not fan-approved as the Thanix Cannon clearly is!

The Crucible is an "I win" button. Its inherent cheapness aside most of its unpopularity stems from the circumstances of its use.


What I'm trying to say there is this: whatever prototype "Reaper" the Catalyst started with was "perfected" over an untold amount of time and upgraded-out, after which point they've been spending centuries upon centuries creating more of these protoypes. Sovereign took on the Citadel fleets and Alliance's. The Rannoch Destroyer required the quarians' entire navy. Creating one Reaper is as good as us creating a fleet. In that, they've been at it a lot longer than us!

Creating the same prototype, over and over again.

But the more important point is, I don't think it took them very long to perfect their methods at all. I'd actually say one cycle, two tops (and I don't care what Leviathan claims about "countless generations"). Here is a post I found long ago about the estimated intelligence of a Reaper. Now something that advanced, that powerful, doesn't need "countless ages" to figure out the best way to reap some piddly organics that it already controls in everything but name. Really, I'd be surprised if it needs 10 seconds.

The Reapers unchained by the cycles and the holokid's purpose would advance and upgrate at incalculable rates. There'd be no way for anything to keep up. But as they are bound by the cycles, they've already reached their perfect form and have no need to further evolve.

Stepping back from the thanix and conventions argument for a second, it's almost painful to compare what the Reapers should be from what we know from ME1 and 2 and how they are in 3. If that post about their intelligence was even remotely accurate, there'd be no way anything could defeat them, ever, even with magic plot devices. They'd really be a cosmic force. On the other hand I wouldn't expect them to bother with puny organics either.

Anyway to get back to what we have, it's the worst kind of compromise, one that leaves both sides wanting. On one hand, the Reapers are reduced and cheapened to ridiculous levels, while on the other, we're similarly reduced to the point where we may as well be throwing rocks, all for no good reason.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:54 .


#182
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Thanix cannons ignore shields. It's in the codex. That's why the Alliance stopped using the cannon type and went over to the thanix missiles. See missiles are deflected by kinetic barriers.

This is called derp squared.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 juillet 2013 - 05:14 .


#183
Cainhurst Crow

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isnudo wrote...

...I thought they did?


They did, the lore and even the cutscenes back this up.

The problem is what people mean by this is actually "Why couldn't we get a conventional victory with thanix cannons" but since everyones sick of those types of questions, a song and dance around the truth is required.

#184
Cainhurst Crow

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Thanix cannons ignore shields. It's in the codex. That's why the Alliance stopped using the cannon type and went over to the thanix missiles. See missiles are deflected by kinetic barriers.

This is called derp squared.


Where did it say thanix cannons can ignore shields? It says it can pierce known shields...back in Me2...before the galaxy admited the reapers existed, let alone were testing these weapons on sutible alagories of reaper sheild strength.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 06:38 .


#185
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Thanix cannons ignore shields. It's in the codex. That's why the Alliance stopped using the cannon type and went over to the thanix missiles. See missiles are deflected by kinetic barriers.

This is called derp squared.


Where did it say thanix cannons can ignore shields? It says it can pierce known shields...back in Me2...before the galaxy admited the reapers existed, let alone were testing these weapons on sutible alagories of reaper sheild strength.


Kinetic barriers are based on reaper technology via the Protheans. They are invulnerable to normal projectile fire. It takes four dreadnoughts firing their main guns to take down their shields -- this is that one that fires that big assed projectile, NOT a main gun Thanix.

Dreadnoughts are very expensive to build.

In cut scenes you can see a Normandy class frigate using a thanix weapon cutting a big leg off a reaper capital ship in the high EMS battle. This is a frigate. Do you realize how many SR-3 (upgraded Normandy) type frigates we could have built in three years? Wolfpacks. And strengthen the hulls a bit more so they can go in atmosphere, and beef up the guns a bit more. Now you've got something that can fight the reapers unconventionally.

The Galaxy admitted the existence of the reapers throughout ME2. It was classified. You were with Cerberus. See the Citadel archives. Bioware retconned their derp. Walters just had to go write Arrival for when he did and give the reapers "Super Drive" so we'd have to use a MacGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina.

#186
Cainhurst Crow

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Thanix cannons ignore shields. It's in the codex. That's why the Alliance stopped using the cannon type and went over to the thanix missiles. See missiles are deflected by kinetic barriers.

This is called derp squared.


Where did it say thanix cannons can ignore shields? It says it can pierce known shields...back in Me2...before the galaxy admited the reapers existed, let alone were testing these weapons on sutible alagories of reaper sheild strength.


Kinetic barriers are based on reaper technology via the Protheans. They are invulnerable to normal projectile fire. It takes four dreadnoughts firing their main guns to take down their shields -- this is that one that fires that big assed projectile, NOT a main gun Thanix.

Dreadnoughts are very expensive to build.

In cut scenes you can see a Normandy class frigate using a thanix weapon cutting a big leg off a reaper capital ship in the high EMS battle. This is a frigate. Do you realize how many SR-3 (upgraded Normandy) type frigates we could have built in three years? Wolfpacks. And strengthen the hulls a bit more so they can go in atmosphere, and beef up the guns a bit more. Now you've got something that can fight the reapers unconventionally.

The Galaxy admitted the existence of the reapers throughout ME2. It was classified. You were with Cerberus. See the Citadel archives. Bioware retconned their derp. Walters just had to go write Arrival for when he did and give the reapers "Super Drive" so we'd have to use a MacGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina.


1. What does any of that have to do with you posting how thanix cannons can ignore all shields.

2. How do you know the reaper whose leg was blasted off was at full shields before the attack? It could have been hit by multiple ship barrages before being attacked in the cutscene. You don't know and can't prove it just as I can't.

3. Wild speculation that ignores the fact that no one was taking the reaper threat seriously before about mid Me2. Even when they did, no one wanted to ramp up their military for fear that it would spark a war. Hell the turians just building up their fleet had to be approved by the council, and almost caused a war with the terminus systems over it. Just because something could have been done, doesn't make it have any sort of relevance to the discussion at hand. In Me3 according to the codex and wiki, thanix weapons are being adopted by everyone in the alliance and other militaries. They are scramlbing to put them in place, because they waited in ME2 to do anything. Those are the facts, and I would really like to argue the facts more than just argue your wild hand fanon over what would have made a better ending.

#187
katamuro

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First of all the Thanix cannon does not fire a beam, it fire a superheated stream of molten metal which looks like a beam. Due to how the shields work in ME universe it s by far harder to deal with such a barrage and it does not matter who has the shield. after a time under barrage it would fail.

Second can we all agree that we dont see anyone really using the Thanix cannons? In the whole final battle we only see cruisers a few dreadnoughts and fighters. We dont see frigates which are supposed to attack at close range.

To fight the reapers they could have used a lot of different things. They could have fired hypervelocity missiles tipped with fusion bombs, it would have helped. Or they could have used damaged or stripped ships to ram them at near lightspeed.There were ways but because we got "we cant win" stuffed down our throats all those creative ways went out the window.

So in conlcusion within ME3 how it was presented we could not win at all no matter what and the crucible was just the deus ex machina of their choice to allow us to end the game. We still did not win.

#188
David7204

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'Hypervelocity missiles' just sounds stupid.

#189
Reorte

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CrutchCricket wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Whilst Shepard is supposed to be good the idea that (s)he's capable of doing what every single living creature for the past several billion years could not, purely on their own merits, is totally and utterly ridiculous and taking the "Space Jesus" idea that certain writers seem to have fallen for to even more ludicrous extremes.

And yet we do that very thing that no one's been able to do for all this time. Does a deus ex machina with utterly inane circumstances really mitigate that for you?

Of course not, that's a complete failure of imagination too. Whilst it's going to be "one (or three) against lots" for standard gameplay reasons and Shepard is a bit of a traditional against-the-odds hero there's a limit on how far that should be pushed.

#190
KaiserShep

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David7204 wrote...

'Hypervelocity missiles' just sounds stupid.


You do know that hypervelocity missiles existed at some point, right? I guess kinetic energy weapon might appeal more to your tastes. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:54 .


#191
David7204

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Yes. I also know they aren't going to be moving near as quickly as kinetic weapons, so the name is going to be off.

#192
KaiserShep

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The concept is the same. It's just an inert projectile propelled at high speed, but this is neither here or there. The point is that there's no reasoning behind the name sounding stupid. What's so stupid sounding about "hypervelocity missile", when such a thing actually exists and has that name for a reason? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:00 .


#193
David7204

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It's generally not the same. A missile usually has a warhead.

#194
KaiserShep

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The defining characteristic of a missile is that it's self-propelled. A hyper-velocity missile differs from other missiles in that it uses a metal penetrator to kill its target. A kinetic energy weapon works using the same principle. Whether it's self-propelled or not doesn't really matter. In the end, you're still killing your target with an inert projectile.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:04 .


#195
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Thanix cannons ignore shields. It's in the codex. That's why the Alliance stopped using the cannon type and went over to the thanix missiles. See missiles are deflected by kinetic barriers.

This is called derp squared.


Where did it say thanix cannons can ignore shields? It says it can pierce known shields...back in Me2...before the galaxy admited the reapers existed, let alone were testing these weapons on sutible alagories of reaper sheild strength.


Kinetic barriers are based on reaper technology via the Protheans. They are invulnerable to normal projectile fire. It takes four dreadnoughts firing their main guns to take down their shields -- this is that one that fires that big assed projectile, NOT a main gun Thanix.

Dreadnoughts are very expensive to build.

In cut scenes you can see a Normandy class frigate using a thanix weapon cutting a big leg off a reaper capital ship in the high EMS battle. This is a frigate. Do you realize how many SR-3 (upgraded Normandy) type frigates we could have built in three years? Wolfpacks. And strengthen the hulls a bit more so they can go in atmosphere, and beef up the guns a bit more. Now you've got something that can fight the reapers unconventionally.

The Galaxy admitted the existence of the reapers throughout ME2. It was classified. You were with Cerberus. See the Citadel archives. Bioware retconned their derp. Walters just had to go write Arrival for when he did and give the reapers "Super Drive" so we'd have to use a MacGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina.


1. What does any of that have to do with you posting how thanix cannons can ignore all shields.

2. How do you know the reaper whose leg was blasted off was at full shields before the attack? It could have been hit by multiple ship barrages before being attacked in the cutscene. You don't know and can't prove it just as I can't.

3. Wild speculation that ignores the fact that no one was taking the reaper threat seriously before about mid Me2. Even when they did, no one wanted to ramp up their military for fear that it would spark a war. Hell the turians just building up their fleet had to be approved by the council, and almost caused a war with the terminus systems over it. Just because something could have been done, doesn't make it have any sort of relevance to the discussion at hand. In Me3 according to the codex and wiki, thanix weapons are being adopted by everyone in the alliance and other militaries. They are scramlbing to put them in place, because they waited in ME2 to do anything. Those are the facts, and I would really like to argue the facts more than just argue your wild hand fanon over what would have made a better ending.


Because it's all freaking space magic in the first place. Shields are space magic. You can make them do whatever you want. No one wrote anything about reaper shields. I'm making it up. I'm writing it. I'm the author in this case. Take it or leave it. If you want to make it impossible to beat them that's your business. Go right ahead. Be my guest.

Okay, Nothing can penetrate reaper shields unless they're hit by a bazillion thanix shots. There you go. Now you can take out maybe a dozen reapers around earth.

Your only option to defeat the reapers is the Crucible. You cannot win conventionally. You need a MacGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina. Are you happy now?Image IPB

The ending is going to suck.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:04 .


#196
David7204

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So what would be the point of using that over a metal slug?

#197
sH0tgUn jUliA

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None. Let's use green slime. It's just as effective.

#198
KaiserShep

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David7204 wrote...

So what would be the point of using that over a metal slug?


This is an anti-tank weapon. Metal slugs won't kill a tank. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:07 .


#199
David7204

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I very seriously doubt that. I would think the slug would always be able to deliver more energy than the missile.

Yes, metal slugs will kill a tank. That's pretty much what tank rounds are. Big metal slugs.

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:08 .


#200
KaiserShep

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Fair enough. That said, the statement that "hypervelocity missile sounds stupid" doesn't make much sense, since HVM's were actually a real thing.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:13 .