285 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

I doubt the poster meant it in the same context.

[KaiserShep]

If we're talking about a non-projectile weapon, then none of this would make sense anyway.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Where is the "head-desk" emote?

[David7204]

Why wouldn't it make sense?

[o Ventus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

None. Let's use green slime. It's just as effective.

Yeah, we should Nickelodeon the Reapers to death.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've got a great idea. Why don't we make a giant 10 km frying pan and heat it to melt some butter and garlic and sauté reaper in the butter and garlic with some cayenne and lemon? I'll bet we could chase them all the way back to dark space with that thing.

[KaiserShep]

David7204 wrote...

Why wouldn't it make sense?

Looking at the info, I guess it would make sense, since the Thanix cannon fires an actual projectile. It's a kinetic energy weapon, though because it's just a piece of metal, it technically would not be a missile. 

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

I very seriously doubt that. I would think the slug would always be able to deliver more energy than the missile.

Yes, metal slugs will kill a tank. That's pretty much what tank rounds are. Big metal slugs.

In air (which obviously isn't the case here) you can keep thrust going instead of losing to air resistance. In space, you might be able to get even more kinetic energy (launch the thing like a kinetic weapon and use its own power to increase the speed). It might be able to do some minor course correction too.

[David7204]

I'm not sure how practical it is to fire missiles or warheads out of cannons at speeds intended for kinetic damage.

[o Ventus]

KaiserShep wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Why wouldn't it make sense?

Looking at the info, I guess it would make sense, since the Thanix cannon fires an actual projectile. It's a kinetic energy weapon, though because it's just a piece of metal, it technically would not be a missile. 

A Thanix cannon is not a kinetic weapon.

Well, I suppose kinetic energy would obviously be part of it, but the main effect arguably comes from thermal energy. It's superheated iron, uranium, and tungsten, I believe, and it's white-hot. Whatever armor it doesn't bore through it would melt (or if it doesn't, the metal will cool and solidify on top of the ship, significantly hindering effectiveness if it hits any vital area). Since kinetic barriers can't protect against extremes of temperature, the sheer heat given off by the shot might be able to damage the barrier emitters, similar to Haestrom.

[KaiserShep]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not sure how practical it is to fire missiles or warheads out of cannons at speeds intended for kinetic damage.

If you're using a warhead, you're not intending to cause damage through use of kinetic energy anyway.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

o Ventus wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Why wouldn't it make sense?

Looking at the info, I guess it would make sense, since the Thanix cannon fires an actual projectile. It's a kinetic energy weapon, though because it's just a piece of metal, it technically would not be a missile. 

A Thanix cannon is not a kinetic weapon.

Well, I suppose kinetic energy would obviously be part of it, but the main effect arguably comes from thermal energy. It's superheated iron, uranium, and tungsten, I believe, and it's white-hot. Whatever armor it doesn't bore through it would melt (or if it doesn't, the metal will cool and solidify on top of the ship, significantly hindering effectiveness if it hits any vital area). Since kinetic barriers can't protect against extremes of temperature, the sheer heat given off by the shot might be able to damage the barrier emitters, similar to Haestrom.

This is exactly why it ignores kinetic barriers. You are correct in that it is white hot. And since in the vacuum of space where there is no atmosphere to cause rapid cooling of the superheated mixture, it would go straight through whatever barrier the reaper vessel had. Actually it would cut through the hull. And yes, they use kinetic barriers. It is stated in ME2 in the Derelict Reaper mission.

Thank you for verifying this. Now I no longer have to pepper this thread with snarky remarks and can go to bed.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:44 .

[katamuro]

My initial hypervelocity missile thought is that it moves fast enough to be able to penetrate hypothetical reaper version of GARDIAN lasers so that when it comes close enough it explodes with a targeted fusion explosion. Such a weapon would have more several megatonns of kinetic energy and additional heat and radiation. We know Reapers are not impervious to such weapons and kinetic barriers are susceptible to such weapons so it would make sense to at least lessen their barriers.

Also a hypervelocity missile could be a kinetic force only but accelerating, for example a fighter mass effect core retroffited into a smaller housing with a tungsten or uranium penetrator, and it would accelerate to near lightspeed and strike the Reaper. It could strike the Reapers roaming on the ground as then it would not have enough time to dodge or take off and reapers have to tone down their shields when on surface so that they have less mass and do not collapse.

[Ledgend1221]

katamuro wrote...

My initial hypervelocity missile thought is that it moves fast enough to be able to penetrate hypothetical reaper version of GARDIAN lasers so that when it comes close enough it explodes with a targeted fusion explosion. Such a weapon would have more several megatonns of kinetic energy and additional heat and radiation. We know Reapers are not impervious to such weapons and kinetic barriers are susceptible to such weapons so it would make sense to at least lessen their barriers.

Also a hypervelocity missile could be a kinetic force only but accelerating, for example a fighter mass effect core retroffited into a smaller housing with a tungsten or uranium penetrator, and it would accelerate to near lightspeed and strike the Reaper. It could strike the Reapers roaming on the ground as then it would not have enough time to dodge or take off and reapers have to tone down their shields when on surface so that they have less mass and do not collapse.

You can't overwhelm lasers with speed, only by sheer volume.
The missile will never be fast enough to out-do a laser.

[David7204]

Tell me, since current ship weapons can only accelerate metal slugs to about 1% of light speed, how do you suggest they launch missiles to 'near lightspeed'?

Magic?

And don't forget that the closer you get to lightspeed, the more energy it takes to speed up.

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 11:32 .

[katamuro]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me, since current ship weapons can only accelerate metal slugs to about 1% of light speed, how do you suggest they launch missiles to 'near lightspeed'?

Magic?

And don't forget that the closer you get to lightspeed, the more energy it takes to speed up.

Ships move faster than light. I ma not talking about a few kg worth of missile. I am talking about a few dozen tons accelerated like a ship and rammed into the Reaper.

[katamuro]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

katamuro wrote...

My initial hypervelocity missile thought is that it moves fast enough to be able to penetrate hypothetical reaper version of GARDIAN lasers so that when it comes close enough it explodes with a targeted fusion explosion. Such a weapon would have more several megatonns of kinetic energy and additional heat and radiation. We know Reapers are not impervious to such weapons and kinetic barriers are susceptible to such weapons so it would make sense to at least lessen their barriers.

Also a hypervelocity missile could be a kinetic force only but accelerating, for example a fighter mass effect core retroffited into a smaller housing with a tungsten or uranium penetrator, and it would accelerate to near lightspeed and strike the Reaper. It could strike the Reapers roaming on the ground as then it would not have enough time to dodge or take off and reapers have to tone down their shields when on surface so that they have less mass and do not collapse.

You can't overwhelm lasers with speed, only by sheer volume.
The missile will never be fast enough to out-do a laser.

Yes you can easily launch barrages of real and fake missiles so that the hypothetical lasers hit the wrong ones. We actually never even saw that Reapers have them. But yes a laser will be faster. 

[Ledgend1221]

katamuro wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

katamuro wrote...

My initial hypervelocity missile thought is that it moves fast enough to be able to penetrate hypothetical reaper version of GARDIAN lasers so that when it comes close enough it explodes with a targeted fusion explosion. Such a weapon would have more several megatonns of kinetic energy and additional heat and radiation. We know Reapers are not impervious to such weapons and kinetic barriers are susceptible to such weapons so it would make sense to at least lessen their barriers.

Also a hypervelocity missile could be a kinetic force only but accelerating, for example a fighter mass effect core retroffited into a smaller housing with a tungsten or uranium penetrator, and it would accelerate to near lightspeed and strike the Reaper. It could strike the Reapers roaming on the ground as then it would not have enough time to dodge or take off and reapers have to tone down their shields when on surface so that they have less mass and do not collapse.

You can't overwhelm lasers with speed, only by sheer volume.
The missile will never be fast enough to out-do a laser.

Yes you can easily launch barrages of real and fake missiles so that the hypothetical lasers hit the wrong ones. We actually never even saw that Reapers have them. But yes a laser will be faster. 

What would the size of these missiles be and how powerful would they be compared to a standard shot?

[katamuro]

Well a 15 to 20 tons or so thats including all the machinery to make it move. A mass effect core, fusion thrusters and guidance system if just kinetic damage. Add in a fusion bomb for around 500 megatonns and you are set.

At 100% of speed of light a mass of 20tons would have a kinetic energy of 429.7 Gigatons. Now I think that would be enough to kill a reaper, or a planet or two.
Even at 1% of c a 20 ton mass would have kinetic energy of 42961kilotons.

A 20kg slug accelerated to 100% of c would have 429.7 megatons of kinetic energy.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Do any of you even know where the thanix missiles were used? On earth, the giant things you were guarding, that shot missiles and not cannons.

It can be easily assumed that while thanix cannons work well in space, getting them to work in an atmospheric environment correctly might be much more difficult. What with wind resistance, an actual temperature to start rapid cooling, gravity to cause the trajectory of the giant glob of molten metal to start breaking apart or worse, and not to mention the fact that you'd need a barrel large enough, a large reserve of metals to use seeing as how I doubt the thanix simply takes a few grains of sand worth of material to superheat, and a power source which needs to be attached to the firing platform, rather than to the missle itself.

There's a lot of advantages to using a thanix missle in ground to air engagement in terms of in atmosphere combat. Using it in space however would probably be a much dumber idea, but I doubt this is really done. Even in the cinematic, the shots they fire look like normal thanix cannon fire to me. Of course this is because last time I checked, the spaceships in mass effect 1 and 2 do not fire blue colored projectiles with contra trails with massive almost solid looking objects leading the trail.

[Ledgend1221]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do any of you even know where the thanix missiles were used? On earth, the giant things you were guarding, that shot missiles and not cannons.

It can be easily assumed that while thanix cannons work well in space, getting them to work in an atmospheric environment correctly might be much more difficult. What with wind resistance, an actual temperature to start rapid cooling, gravity to cause the trajectory of the giant glob of molten metal to start breaking apart or worse, and not to mention the fact that you'd need a barrel large enough, a large reserve of metals to use seeing as how I doubt the thanix simply takes a few grains of sand worth of material to superheat, and a power source which needs to be attached to the firing platform, rather than to the missle itself.

There's a lot of advantages to using a thanix missle in ground to air engagement in terms of in atmosphere combat. Using it in space however would probably be a much dumber idea, but I doubt this is really done. Even in the cinematic, the shots they fire look like normal thanix cannon fire to me. Of course this is because last time I checked, the spaceships in mass effect 1 and 2 do not fire blue colored projectiles with contra trails with massive almost solid looking objects leading the trail.

Space superiority > Ground Superiority.

Also question for everyone: How the hell do Thaninx missiles work?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do any of you even know where the thanix missiles were used? On earth, the giant things you were guarding, that shot missiles and not cannons.

It can be easily assumed that while thanix cannons work well in space, getting them to work in an atmospheric environment correctly might be much more difficult. What with wind resistance, an actual temperature to start rapid cooling, gravity to cause the trajectory of the giant glob of molten metal to start breaking apart or worse, and not to mention the fact that you'd need a barrel large enough, a large reserve of metals to use seeing as how I doubt the thanix simply takes a few grains of sand worth of material to superheat, and a power source which needs to be attached to the firing platform, rather than to the missle itself.

There's a lot of advantages to using a thanix missle in ground to air engagement in terms of in atmosphere combat. Using it in space however would probably be a much dumber idea, but I doubt this is really done. Even in the cinematic, the shots they fire look like normal thanix cannon fire to me. Of course this is because last time I checked, the spaceships in mass effect 1 and 2 do not fire blue colored projectiles with contra trails with massive almost solid looking objects leading the trail.

There is more of an advantage to using a small tactical nuclear missile in ground to air engagement with the giant reapers. Even a proximity blast from one of them would destroy 2 km reaper. In atmosphere certain things come into play that do not in space. That is why they sealed the silos.

The difference between space and in atmosphere for thanix weaponry would be range. In atmosphere they would be short range, and the effect would be quite sonic with the intense heat causing ionization of the air. The thanix should not be subject to any more limitations than the reaper weapon upon which it is based. It is white for good vs the reaper red for evil. Did you not catch the symbolism?  

They never used the thanix weaponry very much like we saw in ME2 in ME3. It would have been too effective and evened the odds a bit. The non-upgraded Normandy does fire blue colored projectiles with a con-trail at the Collector vessel. You can find the video on Youtube, but you've got to look quickly.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 07:06 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...

And yet we do that very thing that no one's been able to do for all this time. Does a deus ex machina with utterly inane circumstances really mitigate that for you?[/quote]

Not much of a defense. It's basically to say: "yeah, but they did it, so who cares if I do it?"

You're either okay with it, or you're not.


[quote]Are you sure? It's been a while but I remember a lot more than three enemies, even in the first round. Edit: Checked, it is three but they respawn.[/quote]

Yes, they respawn, but there are only ever three active at once in the first two rounds.

[quote]Regardless I disagree that we couldn't match Reaper numbers.[/quote]

You think we can match 200,000-odd superships??

[quote]But don't try and tell me equipping the squad (and yourself) with Predators and Avengers is the same as equipping them with Acolytes and Reegars (which incidentally, would be a better analog for thanix canons (except its range), at least in function.[/quote]

You don't get a squad, remember? Well, okay, you can have a 'drone. And a turret.


[quote][quote]The Thanix cannon requires continuous fire on its (Reaper) target to do the required amount of damage to kill it. The PPR is one of the better DPS weapons available and the best in terms of continuous fire. It is especially good against defenses (like the Thanix vs. shields/armor) with mods and an ammo-power. Turns out, though, it's hard to sustain fire on an enemy that can shoot you down more easily than you can shoot them down. Case in point.[/quote]

No it doesn't. It lacks the ramp up function of the PPR.[/quote]

Minor difference. It's not like it takes the PPR too long to hit its top DPS anyway.

[quote]The more accurate analog is the Collector Particle Beam[/quote]

Well that's not an option now is it?

[quote]or the Reegar though the latter is obviously range-restrained.[/quote]

The lolReegar is more like the Crucible, really.


[quote][quote]The Crucible also lets us "outgun" them; it's just not fan-approved as the Thanix Cannon clearly is![/quote]
The Crucible is an "I win" button. Its inherent cheapness aside most of its unpopularity stems from the circumstances of its use.[/quote]

So is the Thanix Cannon if it's the sole key to unlock conventional victory.


[quote][quote]What I'm trying to say there is this: whatever prototype "Reaper" the Catalyst started with was "perfected" over an untold amount of time and upgraded-out, after which point they've been spending centuries upon centuries creating more of these protoypes. Sovereign took on the Citadel fleets and Alliance's. The Rannoch Destroyer required the quarians' entire navy. Creating one Reaper is as good as us creating a fleet. In that, they've been at it a lot longer than us![/quote]
Creating the same prototype, over and over again.

(*snip*)

The Reapers unchained by the cycles and the holokid's purpose would advance and upgrate at incalculable rates. There'd be no way for anything to keep up. But as they are bound by the cycles, they've already reached their perfect form and have no need to further evolve.[/quote]

Just because their prototype hasn't evolved over millennia doesn't mean it's obsolete.

Again, the whole quarian navy had to take out the Destroyer on Rannoch. Sovereign engaged multiple fleets.

The quarians didn't even have to face the Destroyer straight-up.


[quote]Stepping back from the thanix and conventions argument for a second, it's almost painful to compare what the Reapers should be from what we know from ME1 and 2 and how they are in 3. If that post about their intelligence was even remotely accurate, there'd be no way anything could defeat them, ever, even with magic plot devices. They'd really be a cosmic force. On the other hand I wouldn't expect them to bother with puny organics either.[/quote]

Agreed.

If they wanted to keep things consistent, we should have had no chance in ME3. At all.

But that ending would have caused about the same ire as the original one did.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 13 juillet 2013 - 07:37 .

[katamuro]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I did see, the ones the fleet uses appear to be closer to the thanix cannons than they do the normandy's non-upgraded cannons. I feel though that that would devolve into simple subjective one-upmandship in this argument.

It all comes down to the reapers scrambling the fleets targeting systems through a jamming signal I believe, and the majority of them distracted with engaging the reaper fleet. A missile loaded with a charge of super heated metals just seems like a much more mobile, less restricted, means of in atmosphere combat against ships like the reapers.

Thanix missile does not make sense. The whole reason for a Thanix cannon is that it shoots a  continious stream at extremely high velocities thus providing both kinetic and heat damage and due to its nature overwhelming shields. A thanix missile with a container of molten metal does not make sense. A fusion warhead would work better. Or a thermobaric weapon. Heat and air pressure would severely tax the shields which would allow further hits to destroy the reaper. Detonating small scale clean fusion or antimatter warheads would have made more sense.