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[Corker]

Cailan didn't leave her, though. And Loghain doesn't know that Cailan was corresponding with Celene until you find her letter to him in Return to Ostagar. I don't think Anora figured into his decision at Ostagar at all, honestly.

I don't get that thing about Rowan, though. Couldn't Maric marry someone else? The blood of Calenhad is in him, not in Rowan.

[Urshakk]

Everytime I sludge through Ostagar I always seem to re-visit Loghain's mindset at the battle. Now I think he abandoned Cailan because he was inviting Orlesians into Fereldan, Grey Wardens and Chevaliers. Which Loghain absolutely did not want to happen because of everything he went through to free Fereldan when it was occupied by them. He thinks they won't leave afterwards and it will re-create the precident they faced before.

He tried to talk Cailan out of it but he wasn't going to budge on the issue like he normally did when he disagreed with Loghain. He wanted his heroic battle where he would defeat the Darkspawn with Grey Wardens at his side. So Loghain left him for dead.

After that it's just became Howe's negative influence getting him to do things like poison Arl Eamon, send an assassin after the Grey Wardens, put a bounty out on your head, etc. in order to "save Fereldan"

Modifié par Urshakk, 15 juillet 2013 - 11:52 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IMO Loghain abandoned Cailan on the field because he'd once forsaken his duty as general to go save Maric, and a lot of people died for that decision. Maric asked Loghain to swear never to do that (for him) again, to next time let Maric die and do his best to preserve the men under his command.

At Ostagar Cailan is in a similar position, one that Loghain had tried to persuade him not to be in in the first place. If Loghain tries to save Cailan, he thinks he will lose many if not all of his men, and so he retreats because Maric wouldn't have wanted him to risk so much to rescue one man, even if that one man is the king and his friend.

That's how I've interpreted it since reading the books, anyway.

[Corker]

Poisoning Eamon *may* have been motivated by the arl's interference in Cailan's marriage, but I don't think Ostagar was, for all the reasons above plus this one:

One basic rule of storytelling is "show, don't tell." At Ostagar, it's shown that Loghain considers the Grey Wardens to be too foreign. He doesn't want to wait for the Orlesian Wardens, who are by the way bringing a bunch of chevaliers with them. Ambient conversation by the soldiers highlights this, and a general anxiety over whether or not the Orlesians will leave afterward.

Arl Eamon's wife is Orlesian, for what that's worth, and Howe justifies his execution of the Couslands by claiming they were making treacherous deals with Orlesians.

At the Landsmeet, Loghain is still focused on the Orlesians, even though the darkspawn are practically at his doorstep.

Loghain's preferred gifts are maps, showing the borders he fought so hard to maintain - against the Orlesians.

There is a theme there. Loghain hates Orlais. A lot. Protecting Ferelden is big for him, but even bigger is protecting Ferelden from Orlais. Once he got it into his head that the Orlesian Wardens were controlling the new Ferelden recruits, he couldn't trust them at all.

Re: Rowan, just horsefeathers. Katriel apparently earned a gold star in "there, there, Maric" on fairly short acquaintance. And arranged marriages can be called off. Methinks it was just an excuse for Teh Dramaz.

[Addai]

Corker wrote...

Cailan didn't leave her, though. And Loghain doesn't know that Cailan was corresponding with Celene until you find her letter to him in Return to Ostagar. I don't think Anora figured into his decision at Ostagar at all, honestly.

I don't get that thing about Rowan, though. Couldn't Maric marry someone else? The blood of Calenhad is in him, not in Rowan.

The marriage was part of a bargain made when Rowan was captured by the Guerrins, to secure their support in the rebellion.  The Guerrins being so politically important was why Maric + Rowan had to happen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stolen Throne and the game are decades apart, people change. But what is clear is that Loghain does not hold Cailan in such high esteem as he did with Maric.

Which is stupid because both of them are fumbling idiots who should only be allowed to get near a throne to clean it.

[Lavaeolus]

It's also worth noting that Loghain implies, at several points, that Cailan was already doomed. He could charge in there, pull Cailan out... and arrive in time to see him dead. Cailan did choose to fight on the front lines, after all, and that battle, or so Loghain says, was always going to be a bust.

If that's the case, then there's a very good reason for abandoning Cailan. Or rather, he didn't. Cailan was dead. Shall the troops die with him? How much belief you put into that theory, however, is up to you. A lie, an excuse, a justification? Or cold, hard, pragmatic fact?

Oh, and as to why Loghain is so pissed when he does find out Cailan's planning on marrying the Empress? In one swell move, Ferelden would become part of the Orlesian Empire and, yes, once more be ruled by Orlesians. If Alistair and Wynne are taken in "Return to Ostagar", you can hear them go "Oh, there finally would've peace between us -- damn that Loghain!", though his perspective differs. Loghain says, Ferelden would gain little, get a king who called himself an Emperor, and be forced to fight in wars not their own.

Actually, if you have it, bring Wynne and Loghain on "Return to Ostagar" some time. Has some brilliant dialogue.

Regardless of whether or not his decision to leave Cailan to die had anything to do with him leaving Anora, what I find odd is that he didn't realize that this was an actual Blight. Maric killed Katriel, because to save something he loved, he would have to destroy something he loved, or something along those lines, is what Flemeth said. Loghain believed that was complete hogwash, yet when the darkspawn began to surface, when
he decided to leave Cailan, how is it that he didn't realize that everything Flemeth said was right. Keep this man close and he will end up betraying you, and there will be a new Blight, but you will not live to see it. Apparently that man is REALLY hard to convince.

Ah, now that is denial. Though I think he does accept it later on, after it's far too late to change course, and he never gets really over that Orlesian thing until you take charge post-Landsmeet.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 22 juillet 2013 - 12:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Loghain wasn't unique in his doubt that it was a true Blight. Cailan didn't believe it was either, and he was friends with Duncan. The only ones who knew were Grey Wardens--whom Loghain didn't like because his Best Friend went off to play Hero with them in the Deep Roads instead of rule Ferelden or something.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

From the looks of it, Loghain constantly holds the Grey Wardens responsible for the Theirins' terrible decisions.

"You [Wardens] goaded him [Cailan] into the charge!" Were you there? The Grey Wardens consistently advised him not to charge just as much as you did. The fact that he was too stupid to listen and charged anyway does not make it the Grey Wardens' fault any more than it makes it yours. "He believed the tales, Warden!" That makes him an idiot, not a victim of manipulation. Cailan is responsible for his own stupidity.

From what I hear (still haven't read the books) Maric hated ruling and made the decision to go of his own volition. What's more, I hear Maric is no more brilliant than his sons in decision-making or political matters (highly contradicts how he's presented in the game), so again, he's responsible for his own judgment; not the Wardens.

Loghain blaming the Wardens for Maric's and Cailan's decisions... Can you say "scapegoat"?

Certainly. But I also think this prejudice was exacerbated by the need for more Wardens, namely those waiting in thrice-hated Orlais. Blaming the Fereldan Wardens for Cailan's mistakes and death was a convenient means to keeping the Orlesian Wardens, and allied Orlesian forces, out.