36 réponses à ce sujet

[JerZey CJ]

*This may apply more to requests for a female than a male
**I'll be using "Qunari" to refer to the race, as "Kossith " is not the correct term and gets us yelled at by Mr. Gaider(not really)
Why are they treated like the plaque? In a thread discussing them, people are accused of having a "fetish" when the most of this time, this isn't the case(in one thread, several people even suggested and thought a celebet romance like Sebastian's would be better). I just don't get it because the Qunari don't even look that different from humans. The only (physical)differences are skin color, the horns(which I doubt play a part in anyone wanting to romance one, but do play a part in the occasional joke), height(which really isn't that much, it's not like they're 9 feet), and their build(which again, at least on the females we've seen, isn't that much, they look like what our PC should look like if they're a rogue or warrior. The males all look like bodybuilders, however). The Qunari aren't even the strangest thing that we've romanced in a BW game(Turians, Asari, Drell, and Quarians) and nobody said that people who romanced them had a "fetish" for bird-people, blue-tentacle-head chicks, frog men, or people with immune defficiencies.

[sandalisthemaker]

 My guess as to David Gaider's remark about fetishes was due to the fact that many posters in the Female Kossith LI thread (the big one that has around 1000 replies) were indeed making lewd, crass, comments regarding *Female* Qunari.  (Along the lines of their horns making excellent handle bars etc.  )
As you pointed out, this tends to happen more to females. This is simply because females are more likely in general to be reduced to sex objects. Plus, there is also this:



Is there any wonder why some people *do* fetishize female Qunari/Kossith?  When they are depicted like this??

[Catroi]

you again? I'm going to refresh your memory:

Catroi wrote...

So I can either support the OP or "get over it"?

critical debate logic failure, I've said my piece on te subject anyways and continuing asking for a femKossith just to have her as an LI is the best way to never get one as gaider stated (and that's the only time I agreed with him)

I don't care if people are attracted to goats, what I do care is for a companion to be here just because people wanted to have their sexual fantasies made true in-game, I'd react the same if I saw a thread with "put an elf, maybe LI too?" (understand: "let me bang an elf") as I said BW isnt a dating-sim company.

If he asked something like:
"could we meet a female Qunari please? I'd really like to see the part they take in the Qun played in action and have their point of view on the events, to see if they react differently as their male counterpart.
As a non fighting companion she could act like Kang the Mad did in Jade Empire and provide extra-mission and subplots or like Henpecked Hou who gave us an extra martial art style if we brought him with us.
I think that the religious war climate of DA:I would provide the perfect background to be properly introduced to the Qun and have (why not?) a conversion of the Main character to the Qun made available through that particular companion."


there took me 30sec to write and doesnt it look much more convincing than:
"hey I want a female muscle woman-goat to bang kthxbye"

Catroi wrote...

Liara is a blue-skinned woman
Garrus and Tali were both characters that we knew and loved, people didnt come here asking to bang a Turian or a Quarian, they wanted Garrus and Tali no one else, they could have been a volus and an elcor it won't have changed anything people would still want to be able to show them their love because of their personalities.

Only Thane is different but he was certainly not designed because people asked to have sex with a Drell (he introduced the race after all).

Here the OP's message litteraly translates as "I want to get it on with dem amazons" He doesnt ask for a known character to be made romanceable in the sequel nor does he want a specific archetype or psychology motivating him, the only thing that he wants is to fufil his sexual fantasies over the female Kossith (let's drop the masks about the fact that he just wants a follower of the Qun...)

that's all I have to say on this

the problem is not having a female qunari, the problem is the way people ask for it, not to discover a new viewpoint on thedas' multiple problems or to further the plot but for the sole purpose of her being an LI.

And I've already discredited your argument on the other so-called "wierd" romances.
The fact that you seem unable to understand this point further prooves my thoughts that you are not interested in characters' psychology but solely by their physical appearances.

Just look at your post you're not even saying one word about the qunari culture, you only talk about the look of the female kossith as if that was the only important thing in a character like that

[JerZey CJ]

Catroi wrote...

you again? I'm going to refresh your memory:

Catroi wrote...

So I can either support the OP or "get over it"?

critical debate logic failure, I've said my piece on te subject anyways and continuing asking for a femKossith just to have her as an LI is the best way to never get one as gaider stated (and that's the only time I agreed with him)

I don't care if people are attracted to goats, what I do care is for a companion to be here just because people wanted to have their sexual fantasies made true in-game, I'd react the same if I saw a thread with "put an elf, maybe LI too?" (understand: "let me bang an elf") as I said BW isnt a dating-sim company.

If he asked something like:
"could we meet a female Qunari please? I'd really like to see the part they take in the Qun played in action and have their point of view on the events, to see if they react differently as their male counterpart.
As a non fighting companion she could act like Kang the Mad did in Jade Empire and provide extra-mission and subplots or like Henpecked Hou who gave us an extra martial art style if we brought him with us.
I think that the religious war climate of DA:I would provide the perfect background to be properly introduced to the Qun and have (why not?) a conversion of the Main character to the Qun made available through that particular companion."


there took me 30sec to write and doesnt it look much more convincing than:
"hey I want a female muscle woman-goat to bang kthxbye"

Catroi wrote...

Liara is a blue-skinned woman
Garrus and Tali were both characters that we knew and loved, people didnt come here asking to bang a Turian or a Quarian, they wanted Garrus and Tali no one else, they could have been a volus and an elcor it won't have changed anything people would still want to be able to show them their love because of their personalities.

Only Thane is different but he was certainly not designed because people asked to have sex with a Drell (he introduced the race after all).

Here the OP's message litteraly translates as "I want to get it on with dem amazons" He doesnt ask for a known character to be made romanceable in the sequel nor does he want a specific archetype or psychology motivating him, the only thing that he wants is to fufil his sexual fantasies over the female Kossith (let's drop the masks about the fact that he just wants a follower of the Qun...)

that's all I have to say on this

the problem is not having a female qunari, the problem is the way people ask for it, not to discover a new viewpoint on thedas' multiple problems or to further the plot but for the sole purpose of her being an LI.

And I've already discredited your argument on the other so-called "wierd" romances.
The fact that you seem unable to understand this point further prooves my thoughts that you are not interested in characters' psychology but solely by their physical appearances.

Just look at your post you're not even saying one word about the qunari culture, you only talk about the look of the female kossith as if that was the only important thing in a character like that

Well nice to see you too. Good job making that assumption off my one other post you responded to(when I believe the exact opposite and have pointed out in the past reason why they would make an interesting LI outside of "Hurr durr dem hornz and height!"). I didn't bring up culture because this isn't about their culture, ti's about why people treat the idea like it was the worst thing imaginable and a lot of those responses usually focus on their appearance and accusing the people who are for it of having a "fetish". Granted, "you don't care about the culture" does come up sometimes and I was just going to point you to the male kossith LI thread's OP and the larger female kossith LI thread which make points about the culture. And while those characters were known, it doesn't change the fact that they were "strange".

Modifié par JerZeyCJ2, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:22 .

[JerZey CJ]

krul2k wrote...

its simple, every race, character, being, beast or demon that comes into the Dragon Age world should not be a toy for the player to play with the Qunari are one such race, they should stay as they are and hopefully bioware never lets the players anywhere near them

Too late, one of the Devs already said we'd be able to play as all four races in a future game(later was clarified that the fourth race was indeed Qunari).

[Urazz]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

 My guess as to David Gaider's remark about fetishes was due to the fact that many posters in the Female Kossith LI thread (the big one that has around 1000 replies) were indeed making lewd, crass, comments regarding *Female* Qunari.  (Along the lines of their horns making excellent handle bars etc.  )
As you pointed out, this tends to happen more to females. This is simply because females are more likely in general to be reduced to sex objects. Plus, there is also this:



Is there any wonder why some people *do* fetishize female Qunari/Kossith?  When they are depicted like this??

To be fair though, even the male Qunari/Kossith are dressed in similar fashion so it's not like Bioware is being sexist in having the women dressed scantily.  It's only the fans being crude and treating it differently.

Modifié par Urazz, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:00 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Urazz wrote...

To be fair though, even the male Qunari/Kossith are dressed in similar fashion so it's not like Bioware is being sexist in having the women dressed scantily.  It's only the fans being crude and treating it differently.

Sure, all male kossiths are shirtless, but it's not quite the same thing.  You have to look at target audience, and the manner in which males are depicted compared to females.  The target audience of most game-related media, and comics for that matter, are males (straight males specifically). Because of this, women tend to be sexualized (objectified) and men tend to be idealized. 
Here is that same picture with the male also showing.



There are key differences here. Look at their expressions. The female is shown with bedroom eyes, a pouty expression, and she is caressing her shoulder. Her over-all look is passive.  The male is the opposite. No bedroom eyes from him. His eyes are tiny, pupil-less slits, he is scowling angrily/menacingly with lines and wrinkles all over his face (no wrinkles on the female). He is also standing with authority and his hulking frame is meant to intimidate. Note the weapon he is carrying.  
In short, she is meant to be "sexy" while he is meant to be "intimidating."
Also, female breasts and the male chest really can't be compared. A man can walk around shirtless in public without issue, but a woman going topless is a big deal.  Breasts are seen as sexual, so showing them in this case (under-cleavage no less) is for the sole purpose of titilation. Pun semi-intended.

And in any case, since Qunari don't have sex for pleasure, and have assigned breeding programs, her outfit doesn't even make sense in-universe. As I said, it's only for titilation.

[Solmanian]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

krul2k wrote...

its simple, every race, character, being, beast or demon that comes into the Dragon Age world should not be a toy for the player to play with the Qunari are one such race, they should stay as they are and hopefully bioware never lets the players anywhere near them

Too late, one of the Devs already said we'd be able to play as all four races in a future game(later was clarified that the fourth race was indeed Qunari).

They could've simply be talking about MP... Playing a turian in ME3MP just didn't cut it for me.

[Maria Caliban]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Why are they treated like the plaque?

I think you may mean 'plague.'

In a thread discussing them, people are accused of having a "fetish" when the most of this time, this isn't the case(in one thread, several people even suggested and thought a celebet romance like Sebastian's would be better).

'People' were 'accused' of having a fetish because they talked about qunari women in a fetishistic way.

When Merrill was shown as a romance, some posters talked about wanting to pop her tiny elven cherry. Those posters were fetishizing her. In the Fenris thread, there lurks an image of anime catboy Fenris naked save for a dog color and a leash in his mouth. That's fetish art.

It's part of the BSN romance sub-culture and there's nothing wrong with calling people on it.

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Too late, one of the Devs already said we'd be able to play as all four races in a future game(later was clarified that the fourth race was indeed Qunari).

Source please.

All I've seen is Mike twitter about liking to have non-human races available in a future game. No promises and no specifics.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 juillet 2013 - 10:54 .

[Ianamus]

It seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. People said from teaser images of Fenris and other characters that they really wanted the character to be an LI based solely on appearance at that stage, and nobody batted an eyelid about that, but apparently wanting a Qunari to be an LI because they look attractive in the concept art is "fetishy" and a big deal.

I agree that handlebar-horn comments are fetishy and going too far, but simply saying that you want a Qunari LI because the race are attractive and interesting is not.

I also disagree strongly with the female/male seperation mentioned above. I think I'm not alone in saying that the perpetually shirtless male Qunari drew the eye more than once- Merrill even says as much in-game. A simple search for Qunari on Deviant Art returned a lot of male Qunari fanart, with both female and male Hawke's, so I am definately not the only one who felt this way.

That comic book page is also a bad example because that was created by comic book artists not by Bioware, and they are not known for equal gender depictions. I'm sure not many people here have read them anyway- I certainly haven't. The only Bioware produced image of a female Qunari has her in her underwear because it has all of the race/gender combinations in their underwear, and she is no more sexualised there than the male or any of the other races in that picture.

I personally would love a Qunari LI, male or female. And yes, part of that is because they are pretty attractive. I don't think it's a fetish thing any more than wanting say Cullen or Cassandra to be an LI because I find them attractive, and a lot of the appeal is the culture and story potential of a Qunari or Tal'Vashoth as well. 

Modifié par EJ107, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:03 .

[Maria Caliban]

EJ107 wrote...

It seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. People said from teaser images of Fenris and other characters that they really wanted the character to be an LI based solely on appearance at that stage, and nobody batted an eyelid about that, but apparently wanting a Qunari to be an LI because they look attractive in the concept art is "fetishy" and a big deal.

Are you joking? People suggested Merrill fans were pedophiles. There were countless threads about how Isabela was appealing to horny 16-year-old boys.

[Ianamus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

It seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. People said from teaser images of Fenris and other characters that they really wanted the character to be an LI based solely on appearance at that stage, and nobody batted an eyelid about that, but apparently wanting a Qunari to be an LI because they look attractive in the concept art is "fetishy" and a big deal.

Are you joking? People suggested Merrill fans were pedophiles. There were countless threads about how Isabela was appealing to horny 16-year-old boys.

But I don't recall a Bioware developer saying that people who liked those charcters because of their appearance was a negative thing because it was a fetish before they were actually made into an LI, which is really the big thing here, and accusing a character of being made to appeal to horny teenage boys isn't the same as accusing the people who liked her appearance of having an unusual fetish for pirates.

The Merrill thing I will agree was similar, although I don't remember people arguing over it quite as much as they are here. And the fact that the developers designed her to be an LI to appeal to an adult male audience sort of made many of those arguments moot from the offset.

Modifié par EJ107, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:22 .

[sandalisthemaker]

EJ107 wrote...

I also disagree strongly with the female/male seperation mentioned above. I think I'm not alone in saying that the perpetually shirtless male Qunari drew the eye more than once- Merrill even says as much in-game. A simple search for Qunari on Deviant Art returned a lot of male Qunari fanart, with both female and male Hawke's, so I am definately not the only one who felt this way.

Eh, I just went on a tangent about female objectification in response to a poster above me. 
Of course there are still people who find male kossith attractive. I'm just saying that their design is meant to convey intimidating strength first and foremost.

I personally would like a male kossith LI.  I find the Qun repulsive, but a Tal-Vashoth would be a-ok with me.  I don't think liking how they look makes someone a fetishist, I was just pointing out that the way they look can explain some of the lewd comments.

[Sir George Parr]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

krul2k wrote...

its simple, every race, character, being, beast or demon that comes into the Dragon Age world should not be a toy for the player to play with the Qunari are one such race, they should stay as they are and hopefully bioware never lets the players anywhere near them

Too late, one of the Devs already said we'd be able to play as all four races in a future game(later was clarified that the fourth race was indeed Qunari).

Source?. As all i remember reading is that they are not ruled out for future installments.which as a statement acknowledges that people would like to play as the other races, but ultimately doesn't commit the developers to anything.  

[Jonata]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Urazz wrote...

To be fair though, even the male Qunari/Kossith are dressed in similar fashion so it's not like Bioware is being sexist in having the women dressed scantily.  It's only the fans being crude and treating it differently.

Sure, all male kossiths are shirtless, but it's not quite the same thing.  You have to look at target audience, and the manner in which males are depicted compared to females.  The target audience of most game-related media, and comics for that matter, are males (straight males specifically). Because of this, women tend to be sexualized (objectified) and men tend to be idealized. 
Here is that same picture with the male also showing.



There are key differences here. Look at their expressions. The female is shown with bedroom eyes, a pouty expression, and she is caressing her shoulder. Her over-all look is passive.  The male is the opposite. No bedroom eyes from him. His eyes are tiny, pupil-less slits, he is scowling angrily/menacingly with lines and wrinkles all over his face (no wrinkles on the female). He is also standing with authority and his hulking frame is meant to intimidate. Note the weapon he is carrying.  
In short, she is meant to be "sexy" while he is meant to be "intimidating."
Also, female breasts and the male chest really can't be compared. A man can walk around shirtless in public without issue, but a woman going topless is a big deal.  Breasts are seen as sexual, so showing them in this case (under-cleavage no less) is for the sole purpose of titilation. Pun semi-intended.

And in any case, since Qunari don't have sex for pleasure, and have assigned breeding programs, her outfit doesn't even make sense in-universe. As I said, it's only for titilation.

Say whatever you want about sexism in comicbooks, but that's one hot piece of artwork. 

(PS: go ahead and try to draw a decent female character with "wrinkles" on her face.) 

Modifié par Jonata, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

Jonata wrote...

Say whatever you want about sexism in comicbooks, but that's one hot piece of artwork. 

(PS: go ahead and try to draw a decent female character with "wrinkles" on her face.)

Kreia - awesome female character, lots of wrinkles.

[sandalisthemaker]

Jonata wrote...


Say whatever you want about sexism in comicbooks, but that's one hot piece of artwork. 

(PS: go ahead and try to draw a decent female character with "wrinkles" on her face.) 

It's kind of sad when a woman can't be "decent" if she has wrinkles.

[Jackums]

EJ107 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

It seems like a bit of a double-standard to me. People said from teaser images of Fenris and other characters that they really wanted the character to be an LI based solely on appearance at that stage, and nobody batted an eyelid about that, but apparently wanting a Qunari to be an LI because they look attractive in the concept art is "fetishy" and a big deal.

Are you joking? People suggested Merrill fans were pedophiles. There were countless threads about how Isabela was appealing to horny 16-year-old boys.

But I don't recall a Bioware developer saying that people who liked those charcters because of their appearance was a negative thing because it was a fetish before they were actually made into an LI, which is really the big thing here, and accusing a character of being made to appeal to horny teenage boys isn't the same as accusing the people who liked her appearance of having an unusual fetish for pirates.

The Merrill thing I will agree was similar, although I don't remember people arguing over it quite as much as they are here. And the fact that the developers designed her to be an LI to appeal to an adult male audience sort of made many of those arguments moot from the offset.

Basically.

[Volus Warlord]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Say whatever you want about sexism in comicbooks, but that's one hot piece of artwork. 

(PS: go ahead and try to draw a decent female character with "wrinkles" on her face.)

Kreia - awesome female character, lots of wrinkles.

Not hot enough to be a good female character . Try again.

[Maria Caliban]

If you're reading or posting on the BSN while sober, you're doing it wrong.

Have a couple of drinks and then tell me if she qualifies.

[Twisted Path]

I do hope we see female Qunari characters in the next game. Female dwarves too. What happened to them?

I'd prefer if they weren't presented as sex objects the way they seem to be in those silly comic books, and really don't care if there's a female Qunari love interest or not.

[Jonata]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Jonata wrote...


Say whatever you want about sexism in comicbooks, but that's one hot piece of artwork. 

(PS: go ahead and try to draw a decent female character with "wrinkles" on her face.) 

It's kind of sad when a woman can't be "decent" if she has wrinkles.

I'm talking from a drawer standpoint. A woman can be on her 70s and be a "decent" female character, but if someone tells you to draw a "beautiful" woman, you just can't add wrinklers on her face. You just can't or you're going to end up with a very ugly portrait or an overaged character. 

Seriously, things like that have nothing to do with sexuality and sexism and everything to do with the fact that drawings need to be beautiful. Actually, I can't blame the drawer there. Why should I draw an ugly Qunari woman? Only because people will say that I'm sexualizing them?