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Why refuse and synthesis are the only logical choices.


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#1
Erez Kristal

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Destroy - shoot tube, destroy crucible. shepard dies or is in very bad health. reapers have easier time winning.
Control - shepard dies, reapers have an easier time to win.
synthesis- reapers have what they want, leave organics alone since they are no longer organics

Refuse - Shepard is alive and Fights to the last. Reapers as a slighter chance to win.


Now i know what some of you are thinking.
You are thinking, wait!
In the cutscenes i saw the reapers destroyed in destroy and i saw shepard becoming the new overlord in control.
Well, thats meta-gaming. since your character is dead. you cannot know what will really happen, everything from that point is open to interpretation. 

Most of the time, when you shoot a tube which is responsible for leading liquids inside a machine you destroy the machine in the process, meaning whatever it was meant to be doing. it will no longer be able to do.

Control - Its quite arrogant to think that shepard will be able to control the reapers, its more naive to take the reapers overlord word for it... and the idea of shepard having to melt down in order to control them. its sound rather ridiculous, if it was really about control the catalyst would offer your shep to put an helmet on.Image IPB


More on controlling giant flying jellyfish here http://whatsnext.blo...with-your-mind/\\ 


synthesis - its what the reapers wanted all along, this is why they left the crucible building prints for every cycle to follow, this is why they allowed the galaxy to build it in the first place on every cycle. this is why they allow shepard to enter the  citadel, they is why they bring shepard up in the elevator when hes almost dead. this is why its explained as the best solution all around. because from where you are standing. it is the greatest win for the reapers, and one of the lesser evils for the galaxy.

Refuse - In refuse shepard has a chance to fight another day, he doesnt become an indoctirnated husk like in control or dies like in destroy(or close death) stil many more die in refuse but the galaxy still have a chance to survive the reapers holocaust. the galaxy is a large place and all they need is a place to hide.


Im not pro synthesis or pro refuse, this is just a logical analysis deprived of wishful thinking.
At desperate times people will believe what they want to believe even if all evidence show them otherwise.

If the catalyst was really pro shepard- it and the reapers would have just take a hike out of the galaxy.

In role-playing games, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics, or the statistics of a creature that the player is familiar with but the character has never encountered. In general, it refers to any gaps between player knowledge and character knowledge which the player acts upon.[/list]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Refuse is logical from shepard point of view (not meta gaming)

Why would the boss of your ennemies reveal his weakness and allow you to destroy them ? hy wouldn't the star child chose himself what he thinks is the best solution? Why won't his solution work anymore? He could just push back the crucible and let the reapers win, then harvest earlier in the next cycle.

Shepard has no reason to believe the star child, especially given his insane trol logic. Again, the three choices are to 
-electrocute yourself
-jump into a giant beam
-explode a random tube and die in the explosion

That doesn't smell like a trap to you ?

"jump into that giant blender and you can join a super advanced collective intelligence"


Ieldra2 wrote...

There are two levels to metagaming:

First-level metagaming is when you make a decision because you know how things work in stories, even if it's opposed to what pure in-world reasoning would suggest. This happens rather often in my games. Examples: saving the Council in ME1, curing the genophage depending on who's alive, making any ending choice with insufficient information etc. etc.. You just know things will work out well in the end, so you make the decision accordingly. The difference to second-level metagaming is that the story gives you hints, even if it's not in a form you'd accept in a "pure roleplaying" mindset. This can occasionally lead you astray when the writers are particularly devious (see below) since it's not based on advance knowledge but it works most of the time.

Second-level metagaming is when you make a decision based on advance knowledge, where there is no story hint you could use as a rationalization. I would like more situations that require this kind of metagaming to get "right" (right meaning the outcome you want) but it never happens in the ME games. They really never surprise you in any significant outcome. The only time I metagame like this in a significant decision in a Bioware game is when I choose Bhelen for king of Orzammar in DAO.



After a long discussion, i no longer follow this thread. 
you have to decide if
1) do trust the catalyst?
2) do see no alternatives?
3) is submission better than extinction
if you answered yes to 1+2 then you will never understand refuse
if you answered yes to 3, you are better off picking synthesis.

 

Modifié par erezike, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:13 .


#2
Liamv2

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You know this is not going to end well right?

#3
KaiserShep

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The reapers win alright, if dying first counts as winning.

#4
Ledgend1221

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How do reapers win in Destroy?

#5
IntelligentME3Fanboy

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trolling powers are still weak in this one.
4/10

#6
Erez Kristal

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IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

trolling powers are still weak in this one.
4/10


discussion powers are extremly weak in this one 1/10
make sense, since intelligent people have no need to state they are intelligent. it just shows by itself.

Modifié par erezike, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:37 .


#7
Erez Kristal

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Ledgend1221 wrote...

How do reapers win in Destroy?

Crucible destroyed- shepard almost dead. 
The reapers are still out there, if we lose shepard humanity might well follow.




KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers win alright, if dying first counts as winning.

Why do you think they die first? because the catalyst told you? or because you saw it in a movie after shepards die....
Both explanations dont hold air.

Modifié par erezike, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:24 .


#8
Fixers0

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Unfortunatly, Shepard ≠ Player.

There's no logical basis to dispute the validity of the visuals presented during third-person omniscient view. that said Shepard, Shooting a tube, grabbing two electrified rods and jumping into a beam of light is pretty dumb.

Modifié par Fixers0, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:24 .


#9
AlanC9

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Control is arrogant but synthesis isn't?

#10
Erez Kristal

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Fixers0 wrote...

Unfortunatly, Shepard ≠ Player.

There's no logical basis to dispute the validity of the visuals presented during third-person omniscient view. that said Shepard, Shooting a tube, grabbing two electrified rods and jumping into a beam of light is pretty dumb.


The entire game is seen from shepard viewpoint, anything else is meta gaming or wishful thinking.


AlanC9 wrote...

Control is arrogant but synthesis isn't?

In control shepard persume to be able to control the reapers, despite not having exprience in controlling machines in the past. the only suitable cannidate is david from project overlord.
In the control the reapers have no incentive for shepard to be able to succeed.
In control shepard is melted down, despite as shown in the picture above how unnecessary it is for someone to be melted down in order to control a machine.
you just need to put a helmet on your head that is all

Modifié par erezike, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:28 .


#11
Fixers0

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erezike wrote...
The entire game is seen from shepard viewpoint, anything else is meta gaming or wishful thinking.


That's wrong, the opening, certain space battles, the Crucible construction scene an the scene with TIM and Kai-Leng all happen in third-person omniscient view. yet you don't dispute their validity, not so strange, as you have no logical basis to do so.

Modifié par Fixers0, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:29 .


#12
Ledgend1221

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erezike wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

How do reapers win in Destroy?

Crucible destroyed- shepard almost dead. 
The reapers are still out there, if we lose shepard humanity might well follow.

The reapers die.

#13
Erez Kristal

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Fixers0 wrote...

erezike wrote...
The entire game is seen from shepard viewpoint, anything else is meta gaming or wishful thinking.


That's wrong, the opening, certain space battles, the Crucible construction scene an the scene with TIM and Kai-Leng all happen in third-person omniscient view. yet you don't dispute their validity, not so strange, as you have no logical basis to do so.


I dont dispute nor do i confirm their validity. how can i as shepard know about these events.
All i can do is roleplay.
The scene at the begining is visible due to shepard hacking skills, he was eavesdropping.
The kaileng - illusive man transmission was tracked by edi, recorded and brought to shepard attention.

The space fight battles, transmission gathered by the turians and brought to shepard as battle intel.
You cannot predict the endings, you can only act with commonsense.

#14
Erez Kristal

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Ledgend1221 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

How do reapers win in Destroy?

Crucible destroyed- shepard almost dead. 
The reapers are still out there, if we lose shepard humanity might well follow.

The reapers die.


How do you know? your shepard is dead.

#15
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Synthesis for the win because organic life and synthetic life are blights on the galaxy. Synthesis solves the problem by eliminating both of them.

Synthesis: The Cynical Choice

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:40 .


#16
IntelligentME3Fanboy

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erezike wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

trolling powers are still weak in this one.
4/10


discussion powers are extremly weak in this one 1/10
make sense, since intelligent people have no need to state they are intelligent. it just shows by itself.

there's nothing to discuss here,it's just a flame bait

#17
Tonymac

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I think that in Destroy, the Reapers die.

I also think that the endings are a pile of rubbish - the whole deal was poor writing.

Destroy - kill major allies and betray them - just like Bioware betrayed us with those trash endings.

Control - grab the blue bug zapper and die - indoctrinated just like TIM - yet we kill TIM for attempting to control the Reapers. Reapers auto-win.

Synthesis - convert all life in the Galaxy against its will into Borg - this is a Reaper auto-win.

Refusal - basically suicide unless you have your EMS above infinity due to very bad writing.

The whole idea of using Reaper Tech to defeat the Reapers means that we never stood a chance. It is madness and means that far more of the Galaxy is indoctrinated than we ever knew. Reapers are far more advanced than us, and we dealt with both indoctrination and the issues of using Reaper tech in ME 1 and 2.

The whole plot idea of making a giant 'battery' and give it to the Overmind in order to appease the Reapers so that they will surrender to us is so tacky, so lame that its almost beyond words to describe.

#18
johnj1979

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sythesis isn't a logical choice because how can anyone force a change of a way of life on anyone.

refuse is the only way to go because you go down on your own terms without having to force any change of life on life.

Modifié par johnj1979, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:48 .


#19
Coyotebay

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Synthesis isn't the logical choice, it's the feel good Lifetime Channel choice.  You save EDI, you save the Geth if they're still alive, you get glowy eyes and shimmering skin, everyone lives forever with the latest Windows downloaded directly into their brain in this techo-utopia.

Destroying the Reapers is the only logical choice.  You kill them, that's that.

#20
Erez Kristal

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Tonymac wrote...

I think that in Destroy, the Reapers die.

I also think that the endings are a pile of rubbish - the whole deal was poor writing.

Destroy - kill major allies and betray them - just like Bioware betrayed us with those trash endings.

Control - grab the blue bug zapper and die - indoctrinated just like TIM - yet we kill TIM for attempting to control the Reapers. Reapers auto-win.

Synthesis - convert all life in the Galaxy against its will into Borg - this is a Reaper auto-win.

Refusal - basically suicide unless you have your EMS above infinity due to very bad writing.

The whole idea of using Reaper Tech to defeat the Reapers means that we never stood a chance. It is madness and means that far more of the Galaxy is indoctrinated than we ever knew. Reapers are far more advanced than us, and we dealt with both indoctrination and the issues of using Reaper tech in ME 1 and 2.

The whole plot idea of making a giant 'battery' and give it to the Overmind in order to appease the Reapers so that they will surrender to us is so tacky, so lame that its almost beyond words to describe.


I agree that the endings are an artistic pile of rubbish but i disagree with some of your interpretation of them.

Destroy- how do you know you killed your major allies and the reapers. all you know is that you shot the tube of the machine the best minds in the galaxy were building. the machine the reapers left you and the other cycles to bulild for the last 1,000,000 years. the machine the catalyst who claim to be the reaper overlord tell you how to use.. doesnt that strike you a little bit off?  

Control - Indoctirnated or dead- 

Synthesis - yes convert all the galaxy into borgs, the only way to ensure the survival of the galaxy. in a twisted way. this was what saren tried to achieve back in the old days. when he felt defeat was inevitable. the galaxy become slaves to the reapers vision.

Refuse - yep, pretty much screwed, but you can only try to do your best. you say true to yourself. to what you believe in.
Humanity Die fighting.

Modifié par erezike, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:55 .


#21
Erez Kristal

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IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

erezike wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

trolling powers are still weak in this one.
4/10


discussion powers are extremly weak in this one 1/10
make sense, since intelligent people have no need to state they are intelligent. it just shows by itself.

there's nothing to discuss here,it's just a flame bait


Thanks for the warning, stop by when you have something meaningful to say.

#22
Guest_alleyd_*

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Tonymac wrote...

I think that in Destroy, the Reapers die.

I also think that the endings are a pile of rubbish - the whole deal was poor writing.

Destroy - kill major allies and betray them - just like Bioware betrayed us with those trash endings.

Control - grab the blue bug zapper and die - indoctrinated just like TIM - yet we kill TIM for attempting to control the Reapers. Reapers auto-win.

Synthesis - convert all life in the Galaxy against its will into Borg - this is a Reaper auto-win.

Refusal - basically suicide unless you have your EMS above infinity due to very bad writing.

The whole idea of using Reaper Tech to defeat the Reapers means that we never stood a chance. It is madness and means that far more of the Galaxy is indoctrinated than we ever knew. Reapers are far more advanced than us, and we dealt with both indoctrination and the issues of using Reaper tech in ME 1 and 2.

The whole plot idea of making a giant 'battery' and give it to the Overmind in order to appease the Reapers so that they will surrender to us is so tacky, so lame that its almost beyond words to describe.


Totally agree with this post about the ending "choices". Only wanted to add that as well as being more advanced, the Reapers are also eternal, capable of setting long term plans in operation well outwith the conception of any mortal species. They have the ultimate hearts and minds weapons and able to completely engineer races to their designs. 

#23
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Destroy -- kill what major allies? oh yeah... EDI. Shooting a tube to destroy the reapers while walking toward it while it explodes.... Now this is seriously lame.
Control -- hmmm... now you're stuck with the same situation as our friend the Catalyst. And grabbing two rods that resemble control rods with high voltage zapping through them are going to help you control the reapers. Yeppers. Sure they are.
Synthesis -- running and taking a swan dive into a beam of death to bring everyone in the galaxy together. This also is really dumber than a mud fence.
Refuse -- Yeah, good one, Sparky. Let everyone die.

The visuals are "symbolic" because Walters and Hudson decided to get "artsy" rather than go for the direct approach like DE: HR did an have you just push a button. But essentially you're just pushing a button.

The button on the left is Control. The button in the middle is Synthesis. The button in the right is Destroy. And that other button over there is Continue the Harvest. See how simple that is? This is a three push button "I win" one push button "I lose" ending. Your choices matter. You choose the fate of the galaxy. I mean do you really care?

Quite honestly, I killed the Geth already. I'm disgusted with Javik, I'm disgusted with the humans. I'm disgusted with the Krogan. I'm disgusted with the Vorcha. I'm disgusted with the Quarians. I'm disgusted with the Batarians. The Turians aren't impressing me either. I'm not talking about military prowess. These idiots are going to make synthetics again and are going to bring about another situation like the Geth even afterward or worse. Synthesis is the only solution.

Organics are a blight on the galaxy.

Synthesis... The Cynical Choice. Image IPB

PS: of course the presentation of Synthesis is also dumber than a mud fence.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:05 .


#24
Enhanced

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"since your character is dead. you cannot know what will really happen, everything from that point is open to interpretation."

When you consider the fact that it's all just stories told by the Stargazer in which "details have been lost in time",  this could be possible. However, synthesis would also be included.

Modifié par Enhanced, 12 juillet 2013 - 09:05 .


#25
Arcian

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None of the endings are logical.