748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

Reorte wrote...


The Catalyst didn't say that shooting the tube did anything. No-one told Shepard how any of the choices worked, he just magically knew.

?
And that doesnt strike you as a little bit strange, it was a rough situation but even some chance of survival is better then no chance at all.
The crucible was the plan. but it wasnt a very good plan. sometimes you have to know when to quit.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...



If the Catalyst wanted you dead, he would send more husks after you up the Elevator. Or he wouldn't have said anything; Shepard keeps trying to figure out the Crucible while his allies keep getting crushed.

You have this odd image of there being resources to actually counter the Reapers with. The whole point of this gambit was to throw everything we had on the Crucible.

Its like you are not reading what i have written at all.
Catalyst needed you for synthesis.
-You had a bad plan of throwing everything an an unknown crucible,
Its like making a bad investment. you can keep pouring money or you can cut your loses and try to make the best out of it,.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Refuse isnt an epic fail in a case where destroy and control dont work..

Wouldn't they all be the same fail, then?

No, because in refuse shepard is alive to fight another day.
Shepard is a worth a good deal of soldiers, which is why the illusive man brought him back in the first place.
Shepard is too valuable to throw his life on such a far fetched catalyst plan.


Remember the refuse is the only p;an where your enemy is mad at you...
Your enemy, because he keeps fighting your ship while you talk and not once does the catalyst offers to withdraw as a sign of good faith.

does this sound like someone you should trust???

[AlexMBrennan]

No, because in refuse shepard is alive to fight another day.

Yes, for about five more minutes given that he's bleeding to death in an unknown part of the station without any way back or any hope of getting backup (thanks Coats)

Shepard is a worth a good deal of soldiers, which is why the illusive man brought him back in the first place.

Space!bin-Laden thought that Shepard was special, therefore it must be true. Brilliant.

Remember the refuse is the only p;an where your enemy is mad at you...

This is meta-gaming, and thus irrelevant. Shepard does not have a time machine.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Its like you are not reading what i have written at all.
Catalyst needed you for synthesis.

Synthesis only works in a very limited context of endings. The Catalyst had absolutely no idea any of the endings existed, hence his commentary on the Crucible changing the variables.

-You had a bad plan of throwing everything an an unknown crucible,
Its like making a bad investment. you can keep pouring money or you can cut your loses and try to make the best out of it,.

And based on that plan, I'm arguing that you are both delusional and hopelessly optimistic, even in the long term.

Long term conventional combat has not worked for any of the other races. And none of them spent all their resources on a suicide run like Shepard did.

Again, Shepard is about to die on the Citadel, virtually every homeworld has been overtaken, the Reapers can cut off the Relays at any time, not a single military leader has portrayed conventional victory as possible, and all our forces are trapped fighting on Earth. What Disney movies have you been watching where this all turns out okay?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 juillet 2013 - 10:20 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Reorte wrote...


The Catalyst didn't say that shooting the tube did anything. No-one told Shepard how any of the choices worked, he just magically knew.

?
And that doesnt strike you as a little bit strange, it was a rough situation but even some chance of survival is better then no chance at all.

The crucible was the plan. but it wasnt a very good plan. sometimes you have to know when to quit.

Sometimes you have to know when not to start. Again, if conventional victory was on the table, it would have been brought up. Even a long term Conventional Victory is far more sensible than the suicide run that would be the Crucible.

[dorktainian]

www.youtube.com/watch 

for Seival and the other red banana loonies.

[BronzTrooper]

Methinks this is OP's first time on the internet.

No one really cares what ending you think are "logical." I met a guy on YouTube who thought that Refusal was Paragon and Synthesis destroyed all organics. I view Synthesis and Destroy as Paragon and Refusal and Control as Renegade. Some might say Control is the logical choice and Synthesis isn't. It's all opinion. And no one cares about yours.

It's a fact.

[Reorte]

erezike wrote...

Reorte wrote...


The Catalyst didn't say that shooting the tube did anything. No-one told Shepard how any of the choices worked, he just magically knew.

?
And that doesnt strike you as a little bit strange, it was a rough situation but even some chance of survival is better then no chance at all.
The crucible was the plan. but it wasnt a very good plan. sometimes you have to know when to quit.

What strikes me as strange is the daft writing that meant Shepard just knew but you could argue that it's no different from how he managed to operate Collector platforms and so on.

Yes, sometimes you need to know when to quit but that time is not when you're right up against it and have only one thing left to try. As I keep saying a "Nothing left to lose" situation is not the time to quit. You're arguing that someone trapped in a room with a bomb, who's tried everything to work out how to defuse it but still doesn't know should just give up when it's got a second left on the timer instead of just grabbing some wires and yanking.

[Erez Kristal]

Im i have portrayed my opinion strongly in this thread. at this point you can take it or leave it.
There a three main factors in accepting my opinion.
1) do you trust the catalyst.
2) can you imagine no alternatives.
3) Do you believe complete sumbmission is preferable to extinction.

If you answered yes to all 3 questions above you will never see logic in refuse. as for synthesis i will leave that one for sevial.

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 10:59 .

[dorktainian]

erezike wrote...

Im i have portrayed my opinion strongly in this thread. at this point you can take it or leave it.
There a three main factors in accepting my opinion.
1) do you trust the catalyst.
2) can you imagine no alternatives.
3) Do you believe complete sumbmission is preferable to extinction.

If you answered yes to all 3 questions above you will never see logic in refuse. as for synthesis i will leave that one to sevial.

   

1. No.  It has every reason to lie.
2. No.  There is always another way!
3. How about we fight?  Submission will ensure our demise.  If we die it'll be on our terms not theirs.

[Bfler]

Synthesis is like victory of Necrons in Warhammer.

[Erez Kristal]

dorktainian wrote...

erezike wrote...

Im i have portrayed my opinion strongly in this thread. at this point you can take it or leave it.
There a three main factors in accepting my opinion.
1) do you trust the catalyst.
2) can you imagine no alternatives.
3) Do you believe complete sumbmission is preferable to extinction.

If you answered yes to all 3 questions above you will never see logic in refuse. as for synthesis i will leave that one to sevial.

   

1. No.  It has every reason to lie.
2. No.  There is always another way!
3. How about we fight?  Submission will ensure our demise.  If we die it'll be on our terms not theirs.

your 3 is part of 2 :innocent:

[Erez Kristal]

Bfler wrote...

Synthesis is like victory of Necrons in Warhammer.

synthesis is the ultimate submission to the catalyst agenda 

[dorktainian]

erezike wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

erezike wrote...

Im i have portrayed my opinion strongly in this thread. at this point you can take it or leave it.
There a three main factors in accepting my opinion.
1) do you trust the catalyst.
2) can you imagine no alternatives.
3) Do you believe complete sumbmission is preferable to extinction.

If you answered yes to all 3 questions above you will never see logic in refuse. as for synthesis i will leave that one to sevial.

   

1. No.  It has every reason to lie.
2. No.  There is always another way!
3. How about we fight?  Submission will ensure our demise.  If we die it'll be on our terms not theirs.

your 3 is part of 2 :innocent:

ok!

3.  No.  

[LiarasShield]

You know what their is no ultimate choice ending because we all believe differently on how the ending should or should not be.

[Erez Kristal]

LiarasShield wrote...

You know what their is no ultimate choice ending because we all believe differently on how the ending should or should not be.

Its not about that.
Its about, if you think shooting the tubes will lead to destruction of the reapers.
And about believeing that putting your hands on electryfying rods will lead to your control of them.


You can go by the logic, i seen it in the cutscenes so its true.
But then you will be avoiding the entire point of this discussion.

[Display Name Owner]

Along the same lines, couldn't you also say taking the Catalyst's word that jumping into the green beam of hot burning energy will solve the world's problems is also pretty far from logical? Taking the Catalyst's word that anything will happen full stop is illogical, but those are the choices we have, and it being a game, we have no option but to accept that they'll all work.

But, after you pick Synthesis, you see Synthesis working exactly as the Catalyst claimed. In exactly the same way we see Destruction doing what it say on the tin, and Control as well.

And one might call Refuse logical (I wouldn't though) if you completely ignore the sanctimonious and downright idiotic reasoning Shepard gives in his grand speech as he turns away from the device people have spent the whole game building with the knowledge that it was the one and only shot they had for victory.

[dorktainian]

isnudo wrote...

Along the same lines, couldn't you also say taking the Catalyst's word that jumping into the green beam of hot burning energy will solve the world's problems is also pretty far from logical?

Yep indeed.

Taking the Catalyst's word that anything will happen full stop is illogical, but those are the choices we have, and it being a game, we have no option but to accept that they'll all work.

are you sure?.

But, after you pick Synthesis, you see Synthesis working exactly as the Catalyst claimed. In exactly the same way we see Destruction doing what it say on the tin, and Control as well.

err... hang on a moment.  You dont get to see anything apart from Sheploo melt into a husk in an extremely pointless jump into the killer beam scenario.  Indeed as others have pointed out his trajectory when jumping into the beam would have seem him leap straight through it and into the void of space.

And one might call Refuse logical (I wouldn't though)

 

Why not? A stranger offers you 'his' choices and you dont find that odd?  Interesting.

if you completely ignore the sanctimonious and downright idiotic reasoning Shepard gives in his grand speech as he turns away from the device people have spent the whole game building with the knowledge that it was the one and only shot they had for victory.

   

Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from the consequences being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.     

FWIW sheps speech in the refusal ending is probably the best writing in Mass Effect 3 imo.

Modifié par dorktainian, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:05 .

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...

Along the same lines, couldn't you also say taking the Catalyst's word that jumping into the green beam of hot burning energy will solve the world's problems is also pretty far from logical? Taking the Catalyst's word that anything will happen full stop is illogical, but those are the choices we have, and it being a game, we have no option but to accept that they'll all work.

But, after you pick Synthesis, you see Synthesis working exactly as the Catalyst claimed. In exactly the same way we see Destruction doing what it say on the tin, and Control as well.

And one might call Refuse logical (I wouldn't though) if you completely ignore the sanctimonious and downright idiotic reasoning Shepard gives in his grand speech as he turns away from the device people have spent the whole game building with the knowledge that it was the one and only shot they had for victory.

I completly agree that jumping down the green beam of hot burning energy is far fetched. you know you are going to die.
But you also know that your death will make the reapers the happiest they can be. you put yourself at their mercy. you submit.


take notice that in my arguments i never talk about what happens after shepard die. because you can only make your decisions based on what you know from the moment of choice. the writers could have conjured up a completly diffrerent cutscenes that would still follow the thread of your choice even more coherently. shepard choice at the moment he makes it is based only on what he knows result in those three questions i posted above

[Erez Kristal]

dorktainian wrote...



Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from them being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.

 dorktainian you understand :happy:
Now i know this thread was worth it.

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:04 .

[Display Name Owner]

Okay. Well, going purely from Shep's perspective, I see it like this.

Either the Catalyst is lying, which it has every reason to do, and picking any choice it gives you will only end in tears.

The Catalyst isn't lying, which might be a symptom of the Crucible's docking as it says, which makes sense, but again you have knowing with certainty is the case. But if it isn't, what you see is what you get regarding your options.

If you don't believe the Catalyst, the only other option is to refuse, which you know for a fact will lead to the Reapers' victory over this cycle and potentially many more. Your every asset has been gathered and thrown at Earth, and the battle is being lost right above your head; when this battle is done, the Reapers have free reign over the Milky Way. It's either that or take a chance with whichever other option seems safest. If the Catalyst is lying, the galaxy is still doomed. If not, the galaxy's saved.

The only sliver of hope is in the off chance that the Catalyst isn't lying. As far as I can see it boils down to likely destruction or certain destruction.

Also, that tube you blow up to activate Destroy seems to be part of the Citadel rather than the Crucible. Presumably it was the part that the Catalyst was using to keep the Crucible from working. Just saying, Shep has no reason to believe destroying it would damage the Crucible. What can I say? The way the choices are activated are strange to begin with. But of the main 3, Destroy seems the safest, since the other 2 look designed to kill whoever uses them. It would certainly cross my mind that the Catalyst is trying to get me to electrocute myself or throw myself into a furnace...

[dorktainian]

erezike wrote...

dorktainian wrote...



Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from them being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.

 dorktainian you understand :happy:
Now i know this thread was worth it.

 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dorktainian wrote...

Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from the consequences being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.     

FWIW sheps speech in the refusal ending is probably the best writing in Mass Effect 3 imo.

Well, the way I see it, it comes down to two very basic possibilities:

1) Refuse - Shepard devotes virtually every resource available to launching the Crucible. This means that it's a virtual certainty that our Cycle is done and the Reapers will win.

2) Against all odds, trust the Catalyst and choose whichever path you think is most ethically durable. Worst case scenarios, see scenario 1. Best case scenario, despite the Catalyst's background, he was telling the truth and you have in some capacity saved your cycle from destruction.

[dorktainian]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from the consequences being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.     

FWIW sheps speech in the refusal ending is probably the best writing in Mass Effect 3 imo.

Well, the way I see it, it comes down to two very basic possibilities:

1) Refuse - Shepard devotes virtually every resource available to launching the Crucible. This means that it's a virtual certainty that our Cycle is done and the Reapers will win.

2) Against all odds, trust the Catalyst and choose whichever path you think is most ethically durable. Worst case scenarios, see scenario 1. Best case scenario, despite the Catalyst's background, he was telling the truth and you have in some capacity saved your cycle from destruction.

But thats the point.  Starjar controls all the options apart from refuse.  Control.  It is the master of Control.