748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

The problem starts with people saying whats the worse that can happen if i pick one of those three choices?
What do i have to lose?

You should look at it the other way around.
what have you got to gain?
If you refuse, shepard can live to fight another day. most likely everyone you know and shepard will die fighting the reaeprs, but like neo in matrix. john conner in terminator. they all fight for the hope of victory. they will do what ever it take to win.
This crucible plan turned to be a big defeat. but the war continues. and you need to take as many of those reapers as you can on the way. for the next cycle of the children of your children 10,000 years from now to have hope.
Do not underestimte the krogans resliance.
The geth capabilities

Or the normandy+salarians hit and run tactics.

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:32 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dorktainian wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from the consequences being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.     

FWIW sheps speech in the refusal ending is probably the best writing in Mass Effect 3 imo.

Well, the way I see it, it comes down to two very basic possibilities:

1) Refuse - Shepard devotes virtually every resource available to launching the Crucible. This means that it's a virtual certainty that our Cycle is done and the Reapers will win.

2) Against all odds, trust the Catalyst and choose whichever path you think is most ethically durable. Worst case scenarios, see scenario 1. Best case scenario, despite the Catalyst's background, he was telling the truth and you have in some capacity saved your cycle from destruction.

But thats the point.  Starjar controls all the options apart from refuse.  Control.  It is the master of Control.

Right, but from a choice perspective, who cares? If Shepard's goal this entire time was to preserve the Cycle, he's not going to care whether the choice is given to him, he's going to do whatever has the highest probability of saving us.

For all of Refuse's awesome speech, it gets everyone killed, which is no worse than choosing one of the Star Child's options and finding out that they were a lie. What it comes down to: choosing one of his options offers the only possibility for preserving our cycle, however small.

[Erez Kristal]

The problem with refuse is that you look at it from the cutscenes.
The cutscenes simply show you one thread the story continued. even in that story you see the galaxy prevailed in the end. many assumed they prevailed by using the crucible in the next cycle. but in truth that little liara vid could be watched by one of the rebels in the reapers war watching ten thousand years from that time.

You have to make your decisions based on what you know

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...


If you refuse, shepard can live to fight another day. most likely everyone you know and shepard will die fighting the reaeprs, but like neo in matrix. john conner in terminator. they all fight for the hope of victory. they will do what ever it take to win.

Barring massive headcanon, Shepard dies on the Citadel. The Matrix ends with Neo being all-powerful in a position to lead a resistance. Mass Effect 3 ends with Shepard bleeding heavily in a room no one knows about alone with his mortal enemy. The two scenarios are not equivalent.

This crucible plan turned to be a big defeat. but the war continues. and you need to take as many of those reapers as you can on the way. for the next cycle of the children of your children 10,000 years from now to have hope.
Do not underestimte the krogans resliance.

Wars require resources. We've spent all of ours already.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

The problem with refuse is that you look at it from the cutscenes.
The cutscenes simply show you one thread the story continued. even in that story you see the galaxy prevailed in the end. many assumed they prevailed by using the crucible in the next cycle. but in truth that little liara vid could be watched by one of the rebels in the reapers war watching ten thousand years from that time.

You have to make your decisions based on what you know

What did I rely on from subsequent cut-scenes to make that decision? As Shepard, I have access to a multitude of information demonstrating why we have no hopes of even a halfway effective resistance, having devoted virtually all our resources to a one-time suicide run.

[dorktainian]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Oh dear.  Now you are assuming that there is no freedom of will at work here.  

You would trigger the huge power source under the citadel without knowing what it will do, apart from the consequences being 'told to you by starjar ?  Accepting the suggestions' of a reaper?     

Oh sorry - not a reaper.  The thing that actually controls the reapers.     

FWIW sheps speech in the refusal ending is probably the best writing in Mass Effect 3 imo.

Well, the way I see it, it comes down to two very basic possibilities:

1) Refuse - Shepard devotes virtually every resource available to launching the Crucible. This means that it's a virtual certainty that our Cycle is done and the Reapers will win.

2) Against all odds, trust the Catalyst and choose whichever path you think is most ethically durable. Worst case scenarios, see scenario 1. Best case scenario, despite the Catalyst's background, he was telling the truth and you have in some capacity saved your cycle from destruction.

But thats the point.  Starjar controls all the options apart from refuse.  Control.  It is the master of Control.

Right, but from a choice perspective, who cares? If Shepard's goal this entire time was to preserve the Cycle, he's not going to care whether the choice is given to him, he's going to do whatever has the highest probability of saving us.

For all of Refuse's awesome speech, it gets everyone killed, which is no worse than choosing one of the Star Child's options and finding out that they were a lie. What it comes down to: choosing one of his options offers the only possibility for preserving our cycle, however small.

His options.  The very thing thats exterminating entire species.  Obliterating entire planets.   Once he loses 'control' of us the reapers are very beatable.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:38 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dorktainian wrote...

His options.  The very thing thats exterminating entire species.  Obliterating entire planets.   Once he loses 'control' of us the reapers are very beatable.  

Not when your entire cycle is already dead anyway.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:41 .

[Erez Kristal]

If shepard refuse, the storytelling end.
You can imagine and continue it as you see fit. shepard is still alive in refuse. his radio is working. the citadel arms are open. and if you brought enough support the fleets should be still holding their own.

Refuse will mean losing all of the homeworlds. it doesnt mean certain defeat in the long scale of things( thousands of years of struggle).

The reapers are extremly powerful but they have more trouble of replenishing their numbers. if the galaxy can hold its own on a long struggle it will have a chance of victory.

[dorktainian]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

His options.  The very thing thats exterminating entire species.  Obliterating entire planets.   Once he loses 'control' of us the reapers are very beatable.  

Not when your entire cycle is already dead anyway.

he is controlling everything.   Hell he probably even designed the crudible as a massive red herring.  Another method of control.  Ensuring the reapers are victorious.

[Erez Kristal]

The problem with the crucibile is the yearning for a quick fix. a quick vicotry against the reapers. which is what make it such a good trap for every cycle. something the galaxy could pour all its resources into,

[dorktainian]

erezike wrote...

The problem with the crucibile is the yearning for a quick fix. a quick vicotry against the reapers. which is what make it such a good trap for every cycle. something the galaxy could pour all its resources into,

 

Indeed.

Cains have been shown to kill reapers.  We have a chance if we fight it out.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Erez Kristal]

dorktainian wrote...

erezike wrote...

The problem with the crucibile is the yearning for a quick fix. a quick vicotry against the reapers. which is what make it such a good trap for every cycle. something the galaxy could pour all its resources into,

 

Indeed.

Cains have been shown to kill reapers.  We have a chance if we fight it out.

www.youtube.com/watch

this is a problem of a lot of video games, no matter what we do. we will always be limited by the abilities of the game developer to provide more choices. in some games this is more obvious than others. especially when the game forces you to choose a bad option.

Or make loops in the air trying to make that bad option look good.

The fact people claim their choice is logical because of the cutscene they see afterwards or limited provided game choices doesnt help.

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:59 .

[Display Name Owner]

The thing is, there is no chance of winning if Priority: Earth fails. Every resource has been gathered and thrown at Earth for the sole purpose of docking the Crucible. It was a losing battle to begin with, and on the off chance that they won, that was only a fraction of the Reaper forces. After that battle, there is nothing left to fight the rest of them with. Actually, that depends on whoever didn't join you. If the Salarians withdrew support, then they are the only force left to deal with the Reapers, and no, they won't win.

This all depends on if you think conventional victory is possible. Ignoring the fact that you're outright told it isn't, well... The Reapers have greater ship numbers, with better weapons (said to be longer range than Thannix Cannons), better shields, and faster flight speeds. They don't need rest or resources, they don't have homes or civilians to protect, they can't be fought psychologically, they have an infinite supply of tireless ground troops. And Shepard knows all of this first hand. Shepard knows the Crucible is the one and only ray of hope. It's even said that the galaxy can put up a fight for two years max, before resources to keep doing so run out, and this is without throwing those resources at Earth. There is no living to fight another day, everyone goes into the final mission knowing this full well. Shepard and several squaddies say just that numerous times.

[dorktainian]

isnudo wrote...

The thing is, there is no chance of winning if Priority: Earth fails.

 


Thats a pretty sweeping statement.  There is always a chance if we can take starjar out of the equation.  The reapers weakness has been revealed. 

[Erez Kristal]

The more i think about it, the more refuse fits the mass effect theme.
Fighting against the odds. never submitting to the enemy.

Isundo, i never promsied an easy war, chances of survival are extremly slim at best.
The point is, that when looking at the options we have when introduced to the catalyst the refuse has a strong case.

If the catalyst really wanted to end the war he would pack his itself and the reapers and take a hike out of the galaxy.
Shepard is too important to die like somekind of messiah or martyr.

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 02:22 .

[Display Name Owner]

Well, we don't know that. We don't know how removing the Catalyst would affect the Reapers. But assuming it would solve all the problems, how do we do that when all the fleets have been destroyed? It took everything the galaxy could muster to even reach Earth, as a mere distraction to allow the Crucible to reach the Citadel. How are they going to get to it a second time? With all the fleets depleted, the Reapers would be free to devote more of their forces to protecting the Citadel.

[Erez Kristal]

The citadel was open. shepard could be extracted and the core of the citadel destroyed.
But even if all the was possibile was to retreat in order to fight another day.
it was still worth it to refuse.

Its about choosing the lesser evil. the question here afcourse.
What is the lesser evil. and that depends on how you answer the three questions from the previous page.

[dorktainian]

isnudo wrote...

Well, we don't know that. We don't know how removing the Catalyst would affect the Reapers.

   

well he did say he controlled them.  they are doing what he wants them to do.  take him out of the equation.  

Bit like Sauron in The Lord of the rings.  When he cacks it, those he's controlling are lost.

[AlexMBrennan]

well he did say he controlled them. they are doing what he wants them to do. take him out of the equation.

Or the Reapers might just continue executing their current standing orders pending an update - without details we can't know what will happen

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

well he did say he controlled them. they are doing what he wants them to do. take him out of the equation.

Or the Reapers might just continue executing their current standing orders pending an update - without details we can't know what will happen

There are worse possibilities than that. The Reapers might realize that the cycles don't serve any valid Reaper interests and abolish them in favor of something like the Goa'uld system. Say, reduce all intelligent life to 19th century technology and keep it there. Harvest as needed.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dorktainian wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

His options.  The very thing thats exterminating entire species.  Obliterating entire planets.   Once he loses 'control' of us the reapers are very beatable.  

Not when your entire cycle is already dead anyway.

he is controlling everything.   Hell he probably even designed the crudible as a massive red herring.  Another method of control.  Ensuring the reapers are victorious

Full stop. Reapers are already victorious. Every character has indicated that conventional victory is impossible. Once you accept that conclusion, you turn to whichever probability has the next highest success rate, even if only by a slight margin. The Catalyst could be lying but it's also possible he's telling the truth. We're already dead in refuse scenarios, leaving activation of the Crucible as the only possibility.

As for the Crucible being a red herring, well that seems like a massive waste of time given the effort put forth by both the Reapers and Cerberus in stopping it.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

well he did say he controlled them. they are doing what he wants them to do. take him out of the equation. 

Or the Reapers might just continue executing their current standing orders pending an update - without details we can't know what will happen

There are worse possibilities than that. The Reapers might realize that the cycles don't serve any valid Reaper interests and abolish them in favor of something like the Goa'uld system. Say, reduce all intelligent life to 19th century technology and keep it there. Harvest as needed.

Or they could just decide to wipe up all organics life oh wait 

Modifié par erezike, 15 juillet 2013 - 04:42 .

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Full stop. Reapers are already victorious. Every character has indicated that conventional victory is impossible. Once you accept that conclusion, you turn to whichever probability has the next highest success rate, even if only by a slight margin. The Catalyst could be lying but it's also possible he's telling the truth. We're already dead in refuse scenarios, leaving activation of the Crucible as the only possibility.

As for the Crucible being a red herring, well that seems like a massive waste of time given the effort put forth by both the Reapers and Cerberus in stopping it.

lets start naming them... We should start with Back Stabbing Hacket.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

If shepard refuse, the storytelling end.
You can imagine and continue it as you see fit. shepard is still alive in refuse. his radio is working. the citadel arms are open. and if you brought enough support the fleets should be still holding their own.

You can imagine whatever delusions you want, it doesn't make any of them likely. Shepard is barely alive in Refuse and the Catalyst could easily send additional husks or soldiers after him as it sees fit. Not to mention, the sheer difficulty of getting anyone onto the station period. Shepard has no reason to believe he's getting out of this in one piece.

Refuse will mean losing all of the homeworlds. it doesnt mean certain defeat in the long scale of things( thousands of years of struggle).

Hey, if Shepard believed victory was a possibility even on a long scale, that should have come up in discussion. I'd take that as a strategy over throwing all our resources at a non-working device. But as that never is brought up, by anybody, it's reasonable to believe it's not going to happen.

The reapers are extremly powerful but they have more trouble of replenishing their numbers. if the galaxy can hold its own on a long struggle it will have a chance of victory.

What trouble? They use our dead to generate additional forces. They have Indoctrination. With the Citadel, they can cut off support across every system and they have no need for supply lines. And we've already spent most of our resources simply mobilizing the Crucible.

Again, where are you ass-pulling these forces from that we're going to use for victory? What do we have that no other cycle has, on top of having thrown all our forces at a suicide struggle? Whatever long term victory you're imagining in your head is not happening.

[dorktainian]

erezike wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Full stop. Reapers are already victorious. Every character has indicated that conventional victory is impossible. Once you accept that conclusion, you turn to whichever probability has the next highest success rate, even if only by a slight margin. The Catalyst could be lying but it's also possible he's telling the truth. We're already dead in refuse scenarios, leaving activation of the Crucible as the only possibility.

As for the Crucible being a red herring, well that seems like a massive waste of time given the effort put forth by both the Reapers and Cerberus in stopping it.

lets start naming them... We should start with Back Stabbing Hacket.

at last.  someone questioning hackett.