748 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

isnudo wrote...
What Reaper network? And what virus? And why would it work? 

  Starjar, a command line that tells them to shut down, because it would.

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...


This is the thing. You can't carry out a thousand years of constant struggle. It's not logistically possible. Unlike Reapers, everyone else relies on fuel. Fuel stations take time to be built. The Reapers know where they all are and are destroying them far quicker than they can be built. Ships, like the ones that got obliterated over Earth, take time to be built. In fact, you said it yourself. The Earth fleet was built in 40 years. The Reapers destroyed it in a matter of months.

And so what if the Reapers require specific materials (which everyone else's ships do as well)? There's no shortage of them. There are trillions of people available for processing, tons of Element Zero for their cores, and the very same metals to build their hulls. And with them being in control of the galaxy, which they are by the time Priority: Earth begins, they can set up manufacturing easily, unlike the rest of the galaxy whose factories have already been obliterated.

what make you think you cant?

The galaxy has billions of stars
The reapers ships are limited in number.
You will have to be on the constant move.

The reapers main advantage in this war was information. they knew everything about the galactic forces and still half a year after they started it they arent victorious and the turians are holding ground on palaven.

The ones on earth were obliterated, they were holding their own if you brought enough. 
Reapers have taken serious casualties in this cycle. making the enemy think you are unbeatable is one of the tactics of war.
But all lore shows us they are far from unbeatable.

the triilions of people who cannot be moved will have to nuke themselves along with the reapers(taking reapers un the way.) its scorched earth policy. the battle is hard but there is a slight chance of galactic survival.
and defeating the reapers on the long run/

The problem is you look at what you have lost instead of what you still have.

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...

What Reaper network? And what virus? And why would it work? they're millions of years ahead technologically.

Independence Day was a very silly film.

cerberus already found a way to control their signal, 500 years from game time it may be possibile to find a way to control bigger reaper ships.

[KaiserShep]

They found a way to send a control signal to reaper forces, but they never figured out how to implement their method to apply to the reapers themselves. As they lacked a Powerbook, this was not a possibility.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

They found a way to send a control signal to reaper forces, but they never figured out how to implement their method to apply to the reapers themselves. As they lacked a Powerbook, this was not a possibility.

500 years...

[KaiserShep]

Well unless Cerberus has an army of Jack Harkness characters that are fixed points in time, 500 years doesn't really count for much.

[Display Name Owner]

dorktainian wrote...

isnudo wrote...
What Reaper network? And what virus? And why would it work? 

  Starjar, a command line that tells them to shut down, because it would.

So... You want to connect some kind of device to the Citadel that shuts the Reapers down through the Catalyst?

...Then just use the Crucible???

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

The sad truth of when bioware takes over shepard.
Now to the point. You cannot put your personal input all the time. and not being able to put it all of the time doesnt mean you have to screw it when you do have the opportunity, my shepard didnt turn himself in or got himself captured. but still he had to clean the quarrian-geth mess bioware created in the best way. my shepard didnt abandonen cerberus and left them to be indoctrianted when going to far. but still he had to clean the mess anderson and bioware created.

Nah, it's the mess you (and Shepard) created. Whenever Shepard disagreed with a plan, he had the ability to argue against it: ME1 Council, Udina, Illusive Man, various political leaders in ME3.

ME3 doesn't let Shepard argue against the Crucible plan. He at no point gets to say "You know, let's just fight them man to man". If he didn't think Conventional Victory would work when we had all these resources available,  he's not going to think it's going to work once everything's gone to hell with the Starchild.

My shepard didnt push for the crucible, but still he had to make the best out of it.
You cling to how helpless refuse is.
While you ignore the fact that you are nothing but a little pawn for your enemy.
How good do you think are your chances?

Marginally better than conventional warfare's chances.

The Main problem here, is because bioware took control from us and forced our shepard to do idiotic things. the players got accustomed that by following bioware visions of stupidity they will get away with it. and instead of arguing for the logic of. It make sense to do what the catalyst say, hes a pal! players think. bioware crafted this plan. its a bioware game so this is the right decision....

Sorry mate, you're the one who wanted to argue for no metagame knowledge. Shepard makes decisions based on info available at the time. Bioware didn't let you play a Shepard who thought conventional victory is possible or one who thought we had a better plan than the Crucible. Bioware wanted you to play a Shepard who approved of the Crucible plan.

As I said, either Shepard didn't think conventional victory was ever possible, in which case he acknowledges Refuse will never work. Or he thought it was possible this entire time, but made a jackass of himself by not saying anything or raising a single word against Anderson or Hackett. This isn't on them, it's on Shepard for being an idiot and a tool.

You work within the confines of the character they gave you, as opposed to retconning him whenever you get the chance.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:33 .

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

isnudo wrote...
What Reaper network? And what virus? And why would it work? 

  Starjar, a command line that tells them to shut down, because it would.

So... You want to connect some kind of device to the Citadel that shuts the Reapers down through the Catalyst?

...Then just use the Crucible???

We want to blow that trap skyhigh!

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

Well unless Cerberus has an army of Jack Harkness characters that are fixed points in time, 500 years doesn't really count for much.

lets look at what we know.
We have already gatehred the greatest minds in the galaxy.
We have vital intel on how to control reaper ground units. through leviathan and cerberus.

What we need now is time and more resources and maybe one of those salarian stealth dreadnoughts to transmit the signal with.
And whallua.
Maybe 2688 is a bit far fetched
2488 sounds more likely.

500 hundreds years i long period of time. look at what humanity has achieved since 1688! 

[Display Name Owner]

erezike wrote...
what make you think you cant?

The galaxy has billions of stars
The reapers ships are limited in number.
You will have to be on the constant move.

The reapers main advantage in this war was information. they knew everything about the galactic forces and still half a year after they started it they arent victorious and the turians are holding ground on palaven.

The ones on earth were obliterated, they were holding their own if you brought enough. 
Reapers have taken serious casualties in this cycle. making the enemy think you are unbeatable is one of the tactics of war.
But all lore shows us they are far from unbeatable.

the triilions of people who cannot be moved will have to nuke themselves along with the reapers(taking reapers un the way.) its scorched earth policy. the battle is hard but there is a slight chance of galactic survival.
and defeating the reapers on the long run/

The problem is you look at what you have lost instead of what you still have.

You keep saying that, and you're simultaneously discarding what the Reapers have. How many Reapers actually were lost this Cycle anyway? I'm pretty sure it was at the most a few dozen. Compared to the hundreds of vessels the defenders have lost.

Okay, Sword and Hammer are holding their own with enough War Assets. But how long can they keep that up? And again, they're only fighting a fraction of the Reaper forces. There are thousands remaining elsewhere.

And I keep saying this, there is no long run. Reapers have severed supply lines, destroyed factories and fuel stations, blockaded Mass Relays. Any survivors are incapable of operating. Plus, now that they have the Citadel, the Reapers are supposedly able to manipulate the entire Relay Network, stopping the survivors from being "on the constant move".

And if you're constantly on the move, how do you build more ships? If the trillions out there are nuking themselves (because Shepard so graciously decided they'd rather die standing), who are you recruiting to work the war machine?

[KaiserShep]

Advanced civilizations would be completely extinct by the time 500 years rolled by.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Sorry mate, you're the one who wanted to argue for no metagame knowledge. Shepard makes decisions based on info available at the time. Bioware didn't let you play a Shepard who thought conventional victory is possible or one who thought we had a better plan than the Crucible. Bioware wanted you to play a Shepard who approved of the Crucible plan.

As I said, either Shepard didn't think conventional victory was ever possible, in which case he acknowledges Refuse will never work. Or he thought it was possible this entire time, but made a jackass of himself by not saying anything or raising a single word against Anderson or Hackett. This isn't on them, it's on Shepard for being an idiot and a tool.

You work within the confines of the character they gave you, as opposed to retconning him whenever you get the chance.

hardly meta gaming.
My shepard would never, ever turn himself in.
he would avoid it like the plauge.
He had kept information from ojei greybox to put pressure points on the alliance in case they tried something funny. he had information on cerberus in case tim tried to do something funny. he had information from the shadow broker on everyone in case they tried to do something funny
he recorded haccket, video tape him even. he had haccket by the balls.

when i call bs for how bioware roleplayed my shepard then thats bs. you might be ok with it. im not. i can only hope to do what i can while i can. so please to dont tell me how my shepard should have acted. and face at the decision at hand. you claim refuse will never work because the reapers are super powerful, but they have already proven to have weakeness.
"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated. "

Now what you are offering here is to simply give up. which is exactly what your enemy wanted you to do all along!
This was the reapers plan! this is why the crucibile was found and what makes it such a perfect trap. 
Instead of calculating the low chances of victory for this cycle.

trying working on the angle as to why we should trust the catalyst words for it.
Nothing to lose doesnt cut it.
i argue that you have everything to lose.

[KaiserShep]

Refuse doesn't work because it's simple numbers. You are throwing every ship you could gather at the reapers over one planet, but there's plenty other star systems that are crawling with them. Even if the battle over earth was a conventional victory, there is absolutely no way to beat the reapers over every planet. Each encounter guarantees ships, resources and manpower lost. Hopping from star system to star system to fend off the reapers would see exhaustion of the fleet's capacity to engage in combat, and they would simply limp into their graves.

You could always pull a BSG, cut and run and hope they don't catch you, but even that can't last. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:53 .

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...

You keep saying that, and you're simultaneously discarding what the Reapers have. How many Reapers actually were lost this Cycle anyway? I'm pretty sure it was at the most a few dozen. Compared to the hundreds of vessels the defenders have lost.

Okay, Sword and Hammer are holding their own with enough War Assets. But how long can they keep that up? And again, they're only fighting a fraction of the Reaper forces. There are thousands remaining elsewhere.

And I keep saying this, there is no long run. Reapers have severed supply lines, destroyed factories and fuel stations, blockaded Mass Relays. Any survivors are incapable of operating. Plus, now that they have the Citadel, the Reapers are supposedly able to manipulate the entire Relay Network, stopping the survivors from being "on the constant move".

And if you're constantly on the move, how do you build more ships? If the trillions out there are nuking themselves (because Shepard so graciously decided they'd rather die standing), who are you recruiting to work the war machine?

the defenders have lost far more ships of their total strength then the reapers have.
if both started at 100% strength 
The reapers now stand on 90-95%
while the galactic fleets stand on 15%-5%

If the remaining forces on the assault on earth will be able to destroy the citadel. and thats a big IF but is still on the table
The reapers will now longer have control over the relays.

Now lets look at our situation. few ships, few resources. and homeplanets overrrun.
What to we do?
Scorched earth.
Yes you will have factories problems. but the galaxy is such a huge place. that in order for the reapers to find someone after the scorched earth policy will be like finding a needle in a haystack. as time pass by reapers wll run low on energy. which means some reapers will retire to hibernation. the rest will continue the cleanup.

But we already know they are not as throughout as they would have us to believe. they left behind them too many prothean beacons for us to find. too many settlements. they are rather clumsy machines

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

Refuse doesn't work because it's simple numbers. You are throwing every ship you could gather at the reapers over one planet, but there's plenty other star systems that are crawling with them. Even if the battle over earth was a conventional victory, there is absolutely no way to beat the reapers over every planet. Each encounter guarantees ships, resources and manpower lost. Hopping from star system to star system to fend off the reapers would see exhaustion of the fleet's capacity to engage in combat, and they would simply limp into their graves.

You could always pull a BSG, cut and run and hope they don't catch you, but even that can't last. 

Numbers are important in a direct conflict.
But when fighting in gurrila tactics, in a hide and seek. 
They mean a lot less.
This is why great armies have failed holding their ground against less advanced and small numbered enemies.

The galaxy is a much bigger place than earth. much, much bigger. we are talking about billions of star systems.
Billions of systems like sol.
the reapers do not have the resources to cover that much ground effectivley
Thier key of victory was knowledge more than it was brute strength.

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 12:08 .

[KaiserShep]

There is nowhere to go. The galaxy being huge is part of the problem. For all the distance to travel between stars, that means more resources to replenish fuel, as well as food to sustain the crew. Running around the galaxy trying to hide from the reapers will only end in being marooned in deep space, and dying from starvation or life support failure. The meager eezo cores of starships would likely wear out long before the reapers' do.

Guerilla tactics are irrelevant. That kind of thing works for an enemy that operates on your scale. It would work against the monsters the reapers create, but it has no effect on the reapers themselves. Planting mines, nukes, or other traps hoping to take them down would be futile. All this mucking about trying to sabotage them and whittle them down would be all for nothing. 

Billions of stars are also irrelevant. Their existence does not guarantee a safe haven somewhere, or even a safe haven that's readily accessible. As the tech stands, interstellar travel is largley confined to the mass relay network. Deviating off of the network to find other worlds to live means an extremely long process of determining which of the billions of stars have worlds that are remotely habitable. Lack of manufacturing also means that there may be no way to make accomodations on these worlds to begin with. More than likely, the remaining ships would lose fuel, or the crew would starve before they found them. Mass Effect lore emphasizes the limitations of space travel without the relays. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juillet 2013 - 12:04 .

[AlexMBrennan]

This is why great armies have failed holding this ground against less advanced and fewer enemies.

I hope that you have brought enough ships to win when the reapers switch to guerrilla tactics themselves.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

There is nowhere to go. The galaxy being huge is part of the problem. For all the distance to travel between stars, that means more resources to replenish fuel, as well as food to sustain the crew. Running around the galaxy trying to hide from the reapers will only end in being marooned in deep space, and dying from starvation or life support failure. The meager eezo cores of starships would likely wear out long before the reapers' do.

Guerilla tactics are irrelevant. That kind of thing works for an enemy that operates on your scale. It would work against the monsters the reapers create, but it has no effect on the reapers themselves. Planting mines, nukes, or other traps hoping to take them down would be futile. All this mucking about trying to sabotage them and whittle them down would be all for nothing. 

Billions of stars are also irrelevant. Their existence does not guarantee a safe haven somewhere, or even a safe haven that's readily accessible. As the tech stands, interstellar travel is largley confined to the mass relay network. Deviating off of the network to find other worlds to live means an extremely long process of determining which of the billions of stars have worlds that are remotely habitable. Lack of manufacturing also means that there may be no way to make accomodations on these worlds to begin with. More than likely, the remaining ships would lose fuel, or the crew would starve before they found them. Mass Effect lore emphasizes the limitations of space travel without the relays. 

Intersellar travel along side using the relays. 
and if possibile blowing up relays on reapers controlled systems.
I never said it would be easy, but it sure hell beat giving up. (so called. control and destroy)

[dorktainian]

the reapers greatest victory was convincing us we couldnt beat them.

''Submission preferable to extinction''

err nope. I prefer to live on my own terms thank you very much Mr Reaper.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

when i call bs for how bioware roleplayed my shepard then thats bs. you might be ok with it. im not. i can only hope to do what i can while i can. so please to dont tell me how my shepard should have acted. and face at the decision at hand. you claim refuse will never work because the reapers are super powerful, but they have already proven to have weakeness. 

Exactly the problem. You don't get to choose how your Shepard acted. But those events happened regardless, for all Shepards.

In some alternate universe where Bioware let Shepard crap all over the Crucible plan, sure you can try to claim that conventional victory is worth a shot. But that's not this universe and not relevant to the discussion. What's relevant is that Shepard, no matter how you play him, went along with the Crucible Plan, without expressing dissent.

You can't metagame this. You make the decisions based on what makes sense for the character. Bioware gave you two possibilities here:

1) A Shepard who never thought conventional victory was possible. In which case, there's a higher probability of any of the Catalyst's solutions working than there is of said conventional victory.

2) A Shepard who thought Conventional Victory might have worked, but threw all those great, useful resources at a Suicide Run instead of turning to every other leader (the way he does most of the time) and saying "hey,  you guys are idiots, screw the Crucible".

Those are the only possibilities based on how Bioware wrote the character. If you're choosing Refuse, by necessity your Shepard is an idiot, a coward, a complete failure, and not in any position to lead said resistance. He threw everything he had at a suicide run when he secretly thought there was a better plan out there.

Edit: Come to think of it, your Shepard is even more pathetic rereading your post. He had all this great blackmail information on Hackett and wanted to fight conventionally, but didn't use any of that to put pressure in any way?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:06 .

[dorktainian]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

 If you're choosing Refuse, by necessity your Shepard is an idiot, a coward, a complete failure, and not in any position to lead said resistance. 

    


erm... he's alive on the citadel.  He now knows that starjar exists.  He's sitting on top of a huge energy source.

BOOM!!!

No Citadel. No Starjar.  Shep gets to go out making the ultimate sacrifice.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated. "

Theoretically, a King alone can beat a King +Queen+Rooks, Bishops, Knights, and Pawns. It does however rely on your opponent making exclusively stupid moves.

Now what you are offering here is to simply give up. which is exactly what your enemy wanted you to do all along!
This was the reapers plan! this is why the crucibile was found and what makes it such a perfect trap. 
Instead of calculating the low chances of victory for this cycle.

If that was what they wanted, they could simply send husks or marauders up to take out Shepard. That, or the Catalyst could have just chosen not to appear. Everyone keeps fighting so that Shepard can activate the Crucible, which he doesn't know how, and the Reapers destroy us in detail.

[dorktainian]

I think GKar summed it up best at the end of season 3 of B5.

'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'

The reapers want our capitulation. This is why they perfected indoctrination. You can kill one person, but if that person were to be turned that would be a massive victory to the reapers.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Exactly the problem. You don't get to choose how your Shepard acted. But those events happened regardless, for all Shepards. 

In some alternate universe where Bioware let Shepard crap all over the Crucible plan, sure you can try to claim that conventional victory is worth a shot. But that's not this universe and not relevant to the discussion. What's relevant is that Shepard, no matter how you play him, went along with the Crucible Plan, without expressing dissent.

You can't metagame this. You make the decisions based on what makes sense for the character. Bioware gave you two possibilities here:

1) A Shepard who never thought conventional victory was possible. In which case, there's a higher probability of any of the Catalyst's solutions working than there is of said conventional victory. 

2) A Shepard who thought Conventional Victory might have worked, but threw all those great, useful resources at a Suicide Run instead of turning to every other leader (the way he does most of the time) and saying "hey,  you guys are idiots, screw the Crucible".  

Those are the only possibilities based on how Bioware wrote the character. If you're choosing Refuse, by necessity your Shepard is an idiot, a coward, a complete failure, and not in any position to lead said resistance. He threw everything he had at a suicide run when he secretly thought there was a better plan out there. 

Edit: Come to think of it, your Shepard is even more pathetic rereading your post. He had all this great blackmail information on Hackett and wanted to fight conventionally, but didn't use any of that to put pressure in any way? 

Do not pretend to act all bioware on me and pretend to tell me how  my shepard should act. This is a role playing game and My shepard will make the best available decision based on the information giving to him at the time. 

My shepard has 4 choices, 3 involve surrendering to the reapers on different terms and do what they want which is a folly and moronic.

Or to keep fighting

Instead of repeating how idotic you think refuse is.(which get us no where, i understand you lack battle spirit resilience needed for such path)  explain to me why you think taking one of the catalyst cabdies will help you achieve your goals?

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:34 .