748 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

Theoretically, a King alone can beat a King +Queen+Rooks, Bishops, Knights, and Pawns. It does however rely on your opponent making exclusively stupid moves.

The king (obviously) cannot threaten the other king, so the best you can hope for is a draw by repetition or stalemate; you cannot win.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


If that was what they wanted, they could simply send husks or marauders up to take out Shepard. That, or the Catalyst could have just chosen not to appear. Everyone keeps fighting so that Shepard can activate the Crucible, which he doesn't know how, and the Reapers destroy us in detail.

By writing what you just did you ignore everything i wrote in this post about synthesis. 

There are good reasons why they didnt just swarm shepard with husks, very good reasons.

[Erez Kristal]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Theoretically, a King alone can beat a King +Queen+Rooks, Bishops, Knights, and Pawns. It does however rely on your opponent making exclusively stupid moves.

The king (obviously) cannot threaten the other king, so the best you can hope for is a draw by repetition or stalemate; you cannot win.

Comparing a limitied chess game is a folly.
The next thing you will suggest taking one of the world best chess-starcraft players and nominate them to be generals in standards armies

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Theoretically, a King alone can beat a King +Queen+Rooks, Bishops, Knights, and Pawns. It does however rely on your opponent making exclusively stupid moves.

The king (obviously) cannot threaten the other king, so the best you can hope for is a draw by repetition or stalemate; you cannot win.

Fair point. I  haven't played in a while.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


If that was what they wanted, they could simply send husks or marauders up to take out Shepard. That, or the Catalyst could have just chosen not to appear. Everyone keeps fighting so that Shepard can activate the Crucible, which he doesn't know how, and the Reapers destroy us in detail.

By writing what you just did you ignore everything i wrote in this post about synthesis. 

There are good reasons why they didnt just swarm shepard with husks, very good reasons.

Yes yes, some crud about the Catalyst wanting Synthesis performed, despite reality demonstrating that Shepard has no way of trusting anything he says, just like the other two options.

The child wants you to throw yourself into a pit of giant green light. Not remarkably more believable than either of the other options.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Do not pretend to act all bioware on me and pretend to tell me how  my shepard should act. This is a role playing game and My shepard will make the best available decision based on the information giving to him at the time. 

I'm telling you the options Bioware gave you, no more. Bioware makes Shepard believe conventional victory can't be done. That's not me being a meanie and taking away your freedom of role-play. That's the hand Bioware dealt you. Kinda like how no matter what you do, Shepard goes to Noveria, Feros, stops Sovereign, etc. You can't play a Shepard who didn't go to Noveria.

Whether you think Bioware stole your precious Shepard from you doesn't matter. Canon-wise that is what Shepard did. So when they gave you the ability to choose how to approach the ending, if we're omitting metagame knowledge and delusions of what we wish Shepard had done, Refuse goes out the window, assuming Shepard wants to win.

Shepard didn't believe in Refuse throughout the game. And he's going to buy into that crap now, after the suicidal mission to dock the Crucible?

Or to keep fighting

Fighting's already done. You lost. Didn't you get the memo?

Instead of repeating how idotic you think refuse is.(which get us no where, i understand you lack battle spirit resilience needed for such path)  explain to me why you think taking one of the catalyst cabdies will help you achieve your goals?

From an in-character perspective?

It's pretty straightforward:

1) Shepard is not allowed to believe conventional victory is a possibility, even with all the best variables. This is demonstrated by his lack of support for said conventional victory and constant support for the Crucible plan.

2) By the time the Catalyst presents us with all his variables, Shepard's strength is less than what it was when he had all these united forces under his command, having launched his forces on suicidal plan, as I said above.

3) Since Shepard doesn't believe Conventional Victory is a possibility, assuming he wants to stop this particular genocide, there is a higher probability of the Catalyst telling the truth than there is of defeating the Reapers man to man.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:53 .

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


I'm telling you the options Bioware gave you, no more. Bioware makes Shepard believe conventional victory can't be done. That's not me being a meanie and taking away your freedom of role-play. That's the hand Bioware dealt you. Kinda like how no matter what you do, Shepard goes to Noveria, Feros, stops Sovereign, etc.

Whether you think Bioware stole your precious Shepard from you doesn't matter. Canon-wise that is what Shepard did. So when they gave you the ability to choose how to approach the ending, if we're omitting metagame knowledge and delusions of what we wish Shepard had done, Refuse goes out the window.

Shepard didn't believe in Refuse throughout the game. And he's going to buy into that crap now, after the suicidal mission to dock the Crucible?


From an in-character perspective?

It's pretty straightforward:

1) Shepard is not allowed to believe conventional victory is a possibility, even with all the best variables. This is demonstrated by his lack of support for said conventional victory and constant support for the Crucible plan.

2) By the time the Catalyst presents us with all his variables, Shepard's strength is less than what it was when he had all these united forces under his command.

3) Since Shepard doesn't believe Conventional Victory is a possibility, assuming he wants to stop this particular genocide, there is a higher probability of the Catalyst telling the truth than there is of defeating the Reapers man to man.

*sign* its a roleplaying game not an action flick.  Yes bioware enjoyed taking control more of shepard in the game, but you dont have to give in completly. its still your shepard, not theirs. yours.
Now i dont know about your shepard, but my shepard acts on the best available options based on what he knows and not on the reapers whim.
My shepard sees the holes in the crucible story. and will do what ever he can to make the best of it.
so please dont try to roleplay my character into what my character should think, it make you sounds like that fella who tried to role play kaiden into being gay, and got upset when he realized kaiden was a bai.

As for your arguments
1+3-Your shepard doenst believe conventional victory is possibile, while my shepard already knows that the reapers plans tend to crumble when hes involved. he believes in trying.

2) yes the strength is less than what it was, yes the crucible was a bad call. but they are still alive and kicking. they have lost the battle but not the war.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Why this thread is bad: Because you're wrong.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Yes yes, some crud about the Catalyst wanting Synthesis performed, despite reality demonstrating that Shepard has no way of trusting anything he says, just like the other two options.

The child wants you to throw yourself into a pit of giant green light. Not remarkably more believable than either of the other options.

i never said it looked good for shepard,
This is why the entire manipulation was need to be done by the catalyst and the reapers. shepard needed to do this willingly. and more than enough players chose synthesis on their first run, which means the manipulation or falling to the mercy of the reapers if you like it was succesful on the catalyst part.

Its a lot like this : a famous horse-Seller was succesful in his technique, he all a lot of medicore horses but in order to allow the customers the illusion of choice he would round all the horses up. instead of offering one medicore horse, he offered 50 medicore horse for sale. the sense of variety helped him make a sale

[Erez Kristal]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Why this thread is bad: Because you're wrong.

Once more graced by the famous brovikk intelligence.
Have you ever had a smart remark Brovvik, some trolls make clever remarks you know

[Brovikk Rasputin]

erezike wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Why this thread is bad: Because you're wrong.

Once more graced by the famous brovikk intelligence.
Have you ever had a smart remark Brovvik, some trolls make clever remarks you know

Bad threads deserves bad posts.

[Erez Kristal]

Seems like the only kind that you know.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...
 
*sign* its a roleplaying game not an action flick.  Yes bioware enjoyed taking control more of shepard in the game, but you dont have to give in completly. its still your shepard, not theirs. yours.

Except for all the points where they took him away from you. As I said, this isn't about what I wanted Bioware to let you do with Shepard. I could see some alternate ME3 where Shepard believes conventional victory is possible.

But it's not the story they let you play. They let you play the Shepard busts all the stops on a suicide mission.

Again, it was you who said no metagame knowledge. You have to work within the confines of the Shepard they gave you, not reimagining Shepard the way you wish he had been. That's called fanfiction/headcanon. The Shepard they gave you supported the Crucible plan.

He supported building a device, whose function and/or purpose they had absolutely no knowledge of, and seeing what, if anything, would happen over employing actual military tactics to defeat their enemy. What does that tell you about your Shepard's beliefs? He either has no faith in conventional victory or he's insane. You're opting for number two, based on your posts.

Now i dont know about your shepard, but my shepard acts on the best available options based on what he knows and not on the reapers whim.

You apparently knew conventional victory was possible and didn't push for it. At all. Clearly, you do everything at Hackett's whim. As I said, find a way to reconcile these two ideas. I gave you the only workable conclusion: the Shepard you're playing is an idiot. That's not being cruel, that's the only thing consistent with how he acts throughout the game. If your Shepard were competent, he would have questioned Hackett, mobilized all those other races who are more loyal to him than the Alliance, and created a competent resistance. That is what an effective/intelligent Shepard who thought conventional victory works would have done.  

What's funny about this is that the Shepard for whom conventional victory is most likely, the Shepard who united the Geth/Quarians, Rachni, and Salarians/Krogans, that Shepard is the same one who bends over and doesn't say a damn word against the Crucible plan. The Shepard who is most likely to achieve conventional victory is also least likely to give in to the Crucible Plan.

My shepard sees the holes in the crucible story. and will do what ever he can to make the best of it.
so please dont try to roleplay my character into what my character should think, it make you sounds like that fella who tried to role play kaiden into being gay, and got upset when he realized kaiden was a bai.

I can and will. Until you find me anywhere in the game where your Shepard makes a halfway decent active effort for conventional victory, then you have only demonstrated your Shepard is an idiot.

Seriously, go for it. You thought conventional victory was a possibility the entire time. That's fine. Now show me how and why you threw your conventional victory resources at a land war in Asia. Reconcile for me these two contradictory elements in a manner that leaves your Shepard in a positive, non-idiotic light.

As for your arguments
1+3-Your shepard doenst believe conventional victory is possibile, while my shepard already knows that the reapers plans tend to crumble when hes involved. he believes in trying.

If that's what we're relying on, we're screwed. Seriously, this is where the Disney movie point comes into play.

2) yes the strength is less than what it was, yes the crucible was a bad call. but they are still alive and kicking. they have lost the battle but not the war.

1. Failure of every other previous cycle to stop the Reapers.
2. Death of Shepard.
3. Shutting down of the relay network.
4. Loss of majority of forces mounting the Crucible.
5. Every major leader who knows about naval strategy agreeing it can't be done.
6. The Reapers' lack of need for supply lines.
7. Loss of almost every major homeworld.
8. Superior Reaper technology, to the point where 4 dreadnoughts are required to down a single capital ship. For context, humanity had 4 dreadnoughts as of ME1's opening.

The war is done.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:50 .

[Display Name Owner]

erezike wrote...the defenders have lost far more ships of their total strength then the reapers have.
if both started at 100% strength 
The reapers now stand on 90-95%
while the galactic fleets stand on 15%-5%

If the remaining forces on the assault on earth will be able to destroy the citadel. and thats a big IF but is still on the table
The reapers will now longer have control over the relays.

Now lets look at our situation. few ships, few resources. and homeplanets overrrun.
What to we do?
Scorched earth.
Yes you will have factories problems. but the galaxy is such a huge place. that in order for the reapers to find someone after the scorched earth policy will be like finding a needle in a haystack. as time pass by reapers wll run low on energy. which means some reapers will retire to hibernation. the rest will continue the cleanup.

But we already know they are not as throughout as they would have us to believe. they left behind them too many prothean beacons for us to find. too many settlements. they are rather clumsy machines

Why is energy a concern for the Reapers and no one else then? The Reapers went through 2 and a half years of solid space flight, and arrived in no need of replenishment. They didn't consume any kind of fuel over the whole Reaper war. They spent centuries awake, purging the Protheans. Organics and Geth need fuel. Organics alone need food, rest, and life support systems.

Also, how does running and hiding work, practically? Reapers are twice as fast as other vessels, and furthermore they have many Relays blockaded. Anything that's not a stealth vessel has no chance of getting by them in the first place. So the only useful ships are the Normandy and some Salarian cruisers (assuming those weren't lost over Earth). all well and good, but even the Normandy can be picked up by Reapers going by the minigame. Sneaking to a planet and setting up a base is highly unrealistic.

You can't just go somewhere and build things. It takes time, It takes manpower, it takes resources, and it relies upon the Reapers somehow not noticing you. There's a big difference between hiding some beacons and an entire production facility or whatever you're suggesting. Just look at Ilos. In order to keep it hidden, the Protheans had to bunker down for centuries - longer than Vigil could even keep most of them alive. This is without expending further resources on building up for war.

Modifié par isnudo, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:49 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

 i never said it looked good for shepard,
This is why the entire manipulation was need to be done by the catalyst and the reapers. shepard needed to do this willingly. and more than enough players chose synthesis on their first run, which means the manipulation or falling to the mercy of the reapers if you like it was succesful on the catalyst part.

Its a lot like this : a famous horse-Seller was succesful in his technique, he all a lot of medicore horses but in order to allow the customers the illusion of choice he would round all the horses up. instead of offering one medicore horse, he offered 50 medicore horse for sale. the sense of variety helped him make a sale

Nothing inherently wrong with the analogy. But that doesn't make Synthesis logical.

Again, if we're going down the "We can't trust anything the Catalyst says route", you're still relying on Synthesis doing what the Catalyst says it does.

[Erez Kristal]

No need for replenishment? How do you know? they already raiden the batarian space. you dont know if they used those batarians for spares.
They sleep so far away in dark space for a reason. (its known to be a baseless assumption they could have also just as simply been hovering in the space between starsystems inside the galaxy.)

reapers are faster, but they have limitid scanner. an airplane wont help you against infantry if you dont know where to look.
this is not a race or direct conflict anymore.

The stealth ships will be used to bombard ocupied reaper planets and facilities with nukes.
also as communication shuttles and food/fuel supply.

recon missions.

Combat is one of the few ways to use stealth ships.

thats right it takes time and man power. but just look what humans and cerberus in praticular were able to achieve in 30 years.
just imagine what the galaxy can achieve together with krogan, geth and salarian brains.
you already have a lot more knowledge than you did before.

i never promised an easy battle , but dont delude yourself that the galaxy have no chance.

We have discussed this long and with no progress.
This simply falls to those three questions i asked a few pages ago.
1) do you trust the catalyst
2) do you see no alternatives.
3) is submission preferable to extinction

If you answered yes  to even one of these three questions then you will never understand refuse.

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:32 .

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I'm telling you the options Bioware gave you, no more. Bioware makes Shepard believe conventional victory can't be done. That's not me being a meanie and taking away your freedom of role-play. That's the hand Bioware dealt you. Kinda like how no matter what you do, Shepard goes to Noveria, Feros, stops Sovereign, etc. You can't play a Shepard who didn't go to Noveria.

(Minor derail). Let's say Bioware did let Shepard believe in conventional victory. He still wouldn't necessarily be right about it. It'd be unfair to design the game that way without more information about how battles are playing out than we have, though. Although all the information we do have is that CV isn't workable. Allied strength relative to the Reapers' strength is going down, not up, once Shepard has finished recruiting.

[Display Name Owner]

Okay, that's fair enough, they may have used Batarian resources for power. But this is after 50,000 years in Dark Space and 2 solid years' flight. Yet in the following months, they were known not to consume fuel. Whatever system they use, it's considerably more efficient than ours. And anyway, if they did indeed use Batarian resources for fuel, why should they run out of it now, when they have the entire galaxy locked down? They have the easy access survivors don't.

And where are the stealth ships going to acquire this food and fuel in the first place? They've nuked the planets (and good job on asking the people there if they were okay with that, Shep...), eliminating the sources of food, and the Reapers have already destroyed their fuel stations.

The one and only advantage this cycle has had is the delay allowed by the Protheans, and the subsequent discovery of the Crucible. Choosing Refuse invalidates both of those advantages. You're left with your fleets spent and the galaxy picked apart. The Reapers have successfully purged hundreds or thousands of cycles. If you think they're unacquainted with guerilla warfare and scorched earth tactics, or they'll work this time because "hope and non-submission" ...well, it's not happening.

And as for what humans accomplished in 30 years... that was without an unstoppable force eating it's way through the galaxy.

1) No I don't trust the Catalyst
2) No, I don't see any alternatives
3)Yes, it is. Whether or not Shep would rather die standing is irrelevant, there are trillions of other lives depending on him activating that Crucible. Deciding on their behalf that dying under the righ circumstances is just okay is irresponsible, selfish and downright narcissistic.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

(Minor derail). Let's say Bioware did let Shepard believe in conventional victory. He still wouldn't necessarily be right about it. It'd be unfair to design the game that way without more information about how battles are playing out than we have, though. Although all the information we do have is that CV isn't workable. Allied strength relative to the Reapers' strength is going down, not up, once Shepard has finished recruiting.

Fair point. You brought that up earlier too, if I remember right.

I think the big problem here is that Mass Effect was never big on giving us exact military numbers. This isn't an RTS where we can point out exactly how much resources we have or how many soldiers.

Bioware gives us a few vague references to military tactics and supplements it by telling the player conventional victory is impossible.

We know that it takes at least four dreadnoughts to take down a Capital Ship. And ME1 tells us that we had 6 dreadnoughts at the start (plus one in construction). Based alone on Sovereign's strength, how many Reapers ME2 shows at the end, and our limited number of dreadnoughts, conventional victory has been presented as virtually impossible (even with best playthroughs), regardless of what Shepard thinks.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

isnudo wrote...

And where are the stealth ships going to acquire this food and fuel in the first place? They've nuked the planets (and good job on asking the people there if they were okay with that, Shep...), eliminating the sources of food, and the Reapers have already destroyed their fuel stations..

Other thing to consider is will stealth ships even work anymore and for how long? Granted Sovereign didn't detect our presence, but the Collectors sure didn't have a problem blowing through our stealth systems. Even if the first example was dumb luck, I don't see stealth systems working forever.

[dorktainian]

youtu.be/Wj9q8rwYo84

Modifié par dorktainian, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:43 .

[Coyotebay]

There really isn't a reason for the Catalyst to lie at all.  The Catalyst knows that it can just do nothing and the Reapers win the war.  And if it is inclined to use the Crucible for its desired solution - synthesis - it can just activate it itself.  Why does it need Shepard?  Just have a keeper drag one of the dead bodies littering the place into the green column and there you go.  And if the Catalyst really needed Shepard, it would have signaled Harbinger and the Reapers to back off and leave Shepard a clear path to get to the Citadel, not send waves of banshees and other nasty things at him.  Sheesh.

[dorktainian]

the catalyst does nothing but lie - and impose his choices upon you. wheres the choice to tell him to f.... off? everything has been turned on its head...literally. Up is down. Down is up. You are talking to the catalyst - even tho shepard is surely the catalyst. Renegade is paragon and vice versa. The reapers preserve life? no they exterminate life.

[Erez Kristal]

Coyotebay wrote...

There really isn't a reason for the Catalyst to lie at all.  The Catalyst knows that it can just do nothing and the Reapers win the war.  And if it is inclined to use the Crucible for its desired solution - synthesis - it can just activate it itself.  Why does it need Shepard?  Just have a keeper drag one of the dead bodies littering the place into the green column and there you go.  And if the Catalyst really needed Shepard, it would have signaled Harbinger and the Reapers to back off and leave Shepard a clear path to get to the Citadel, not send waves of banshees and other nasty things at him.  Sheesh.

man, i hate it when people are being lazy and do not bother to read the entire thread, or have no information on man they are speaking or just dont think things through.
I have discussed this lengthy throughout the thread.

It all falls down to those three questions.