748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

isnudo wrote...


3)Yes, it is. Whether or not Shep would rather die standing is irrelevant, there are trillions of other lives depending on him activating that Crucible. Deciding on their behalf that dying under the righ circumstances is just okay is irresponsible, selfish and downright narcissistic.

Its not about being selfish for some higher purpose or pride.
Its about dooming the galxaxy under the reign of the reapers. its about forcing organics to become part synthethics or worse.
There is a lot at stake here. putting yourself at the mercy of mass murderers isnt about being altruistic just as decideding to fight doesnt make you selfish. its about trying to figure out what is the best choice of them all.
And that depends how you see the three questions. 

One might think he sees no alternative, doesnt believe the catalyst but will not agree for the entire galaxy to be huskified and liquified. one might decide to die not because of higher morales and selfishness. but because living as monster is worse

[dorktainian]

i like this thread.




www.youtube.com/watch



yeah.....we're dooooomed.  good job team milky way.   



www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par dorktainian, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:18 .

[cerberus1701]

Refuse: Making everything done meaningless, consigning trillions to death in this cycle and the next. All for your own sense of dignity

Synthesis: Hand the galaxy over to control of the Leviathans.

I fail to see the logic in either.

[Erez Kristal]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Refuse: Making everything done meaningless, consigning trillions to death in this cycle and the next. All for your own sense of dignity

Synthesis: Hand the galaxy over to control of the Leviathans.

I fail to see the logic in either.

you also failed to read the thread, so its not so suprising...

[dorktainian]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Refuse: Making everything done meaningless

   

are you sure?  how do you know the intelligence isnt looking for someone evolved enough to see all the bulls..t happening around him and just say NO!!! ?

you don't.  nobody knows.  thats how ambiguous the ending is.

Wake up Shepard.

[Coyotebay]

erezike wrote...

Coyotebay wrote...

There really isn't a reason for the Catalyst to lie at all.  The Catalyst knows that it can just do nothing and the Reapers win the war.  And if it is inclined to use the Crucible for its desired solution - synthesis - it can just activate it itself.  Why does it need Shepard?  Just have a keeper drag one of the dead bodies littering the place into the green column and there you go.  And if the Catalyst really needed Shepard, it would have signaled Harbinger and the Reapers to back off and leave Shepard a clear path to get to the Citadel, not send waves of banshees and other nasty things at him.  Sheesh.

man, i hate it when people are being lazy and do not bother to read the entire thread, or have no information on man they are speaking or just dont think things through.
I have discussed this lengthy throughout the thread.

It all falls down to those three questions.

Some of us have jobs and don't have the time to read every post in an 18 page thread.  And what's your point?  What I said above wouldn't change regardless of how much mumbo-jumbo I read upthread.  There is no reason for the Catalyst to lie because the Catalyst can achieve whatever it wants without lying and even without Shepard.  If there was a manipulation it was to get the Alliance to build the Crucible to begin with so the Catalyst would have it to achieve synthesis.  But even that doesn't make sense because the Catalyst could have just ordered the Reapers to build the Crucible.

[Erez Kristal]

how would you know that the catalyst could achieve whatever it wants without lying and without shepard?

What are the benefits of the galaxy building the crucible instead of the reapers?
What are the benefits to the catalyst if shepard jumps to the beam on his own?

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:38 .

[dorktainian]

as a side note the catalyst tells shepard he needs him. just sayin.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

how would you know that the catalyst could achieve whatever it wants without lying and without shepard?

Well, contrary to your expectations, there is nothing physically speaking special about Shepard, especially once the Crucible docks.

If the Catalyst is aware of Synthesis (and he seems to be), it can be achieved without anyone. Grab a human, living if need be, and have your marauders toss him into the magic green light.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

how would you know that the catalyst could achieve whatever it wants without lying and without shepard?

Well, contrary to your expectations, there is nothing physically speaking special about Shepard, especially once the Crucible docks.

If the Catalyst is aware of Synthesis (and he seems to be), it can be achieved without anyone. Grab a human, living if need be, and have your marauders toss him into the magic green light.

Every organic creature is different, different genetics, different memories, different fingerprints.
Do you persume to know what the catalyst need?

If you had a craving for a 5 resteraunt steak.
and someone brought you a hotdog...
would you tell them its the same?

And even if it could be private john doe, he would still need to jump into the beam on his own in order for it to work

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:41 .

[cerberus1701]

dorktainian wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Refuse: Making everything done meaningless

   

are you sure?  how do you know the intelligence isnt looking for someone evolved enough to see all the bulls..t happening around him and just say NO!!! ?

you don't.  nobody knows.  thats how ambiguous the ending is.

Wake up Shepard.

I know because it's not until at least the next cycle where the Reapers are defeated.

[Erez Kristal]

cerberus1701 wrote...


I know because it's not until at least the next cycle where the Reapers are defeated.

 how do you know its the next cycle?
and how do you know the reapers are defeated, at all?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...
Every organic creature is different, different genetics, different memories, different fingerprints.
Do you persume to know what the catalyst need?

If you had a craving for a 5 resteraunt steak.
and someone brought you a hotdog...
would you tell them its the same?

But just magically, Shepard has the perfect genetics! Completely irreplaceable! Amazing. I'm guessing this is another effort on your part to make Shepard unique/special?

[AlexMBrennan]

dorktainian wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Refuse: Making everything done meaningless

   

are you sure?  how do you know the intelligence isnt looking for someone evolved enough to see all the bulls..t happening around him and just say NO!!! ?

you don't.  nobody knows.  thats how ambiguous the ending is.

Wake up Shepard.

Careful now, you don't want to be recognised as an IT supporter.

In any case, that "evolved" future sounds lovely - billions of people live and die on the whims of one dude who happens to be lucky at dodging enemy fire. I don't see why we ever bothered with democracy at all.

And our saviour is a coward too afraid to speak up who ended up sabotaging the Crucible project that hundreds of millions died to build.  You might not like the Crucible plot, but building it and then not using it is morally indefensible.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:50 .

[Erez Kristal]

But just magically, Shepard has the perfect genetics! Completely irreplaceable! Amazing. I'm guessing this is another effort on your part to make Shepard unique/special?

Well...

[Coyotebay]

erezike wrote...

how would you know that the catalyst could achieve whatever it wants without lying and without shepard?

What are the benefits of the galaxy building the crucible instead of the reapers?
What are the benefits to the catalyst if shepard jumps to the beam on his own?

I already explained to you why.  It does not need Shepard to do synthesis, any human DNA will do, any organic DNA it seems for that matter.  If it simply wants for the Reapers to end the cycle, it doesn't have to do anything, it knows from how the war is going down that the Alliance can't win.  If it really needed Shepard, it would have made it easy for Shepard to get to the Citadel.  There are no benefits to the galaxy building the Crucible instead of the Reapers.  It's the same blueprint.  There are no benefits to Shepard specifically jumping into the beam, it was never explained.  It was explained that DNA was needed, period.  The only hint that is given as to the Catalyst's motivation is that it mentions organics being ready for the synthesis evolution and that the old Reaper solution didn't work anymore.  So I guess you could say that the organics building the Crucible was like passing some sort of test in the Catalyst's eye.  I think it just wanted to meet Shepard, so when Shepard made it on board, it brought him up for a chat.  But no, the Catalyst did not need him.

Modifié par Coyotebay, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:51 .

[Erez Kristal]

AlexMBrennan wrote...


Careful now, you don't want to be recognised as an IT supporter.

In any case, that "evolved" future sounds lovely - billions of people live and die on the whims of one dude who happens to be lucky at dodging enemy fire. I don't see why we ever bothered with democracy at all.

And our saviour is a coward too afraid to speak up who ended up sabotaging the Crucible project that hundreds of millions died to build.  You might not like the Crucible plot, but building it and then not using it is morally indefensible.

Or save you from the reaper trap and might give a damn chance of survival to this ungrateful race.

[rashie]

erezike wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

How do reapers win in Destroy?

Crucible destroyed- shepard almost dead. 
The reapers are still out there, if we lose shepard humanity might well follow.

The reapers die.

How do you know? your shepard is dead.

How do you know that refusal or synthesis is not just a vision in shepards head after he passed out near Anderson as well? You can't know since your shepard lost consciousness before getting taken to the Catalyst, all 4 options is just visions from shepard while passed out.

Modifié par rashie, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:54 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Coyotebay wrote...

erezike wrote...

how would you know that the catalyst could achieve whatever it wants without lying and without shepard?

What are the benefits of the galaxy building the crucible instead of the reapers?
What are the benefits to the catalyst if shepard jumps to the beam on his own?

I already explained to you why.  It does not need Shepard to do synthesis, any human DNA will do, any organic DNA it seems for that matter.  If it simply wants for the Reapers to end the cycle, it doesn't have to do anything, it knows from how the war is going down that the Alliance can't win.  If it really needed Shepard, it would have made it easy for Shepard to get to the Citadel.  There are no benefits to the galaxy building the Crucible instead of the Reapers.  It's the same blueprint.  There are no benefits to Shepard specifically jumping into the beam, it was never explained.  It was explained that DNA was needed, period.  The only hint that is given as to the Catalyst's motivation is that it mentions organics being ready for the synthesis evolution and that the old Reaper solution didn't work anymore.  So I guess you could say that the organics building the Crucible was like passing some sort of test in the Catalyst's eye.  I think it just wanted to meet Shepard, so when Shepard made it on board, it brought him up for a chat.  But no, the Catalyst did not need him.

Pretty much this.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...


Careful now, you don't want to be recognised as an IT supporter.

In any case, that "evolved" future sounds lovely - billions of people live and die on the whims of one dude who happens to be lucky at dodging enemy fire. I don't see why we ever bothered with democracy at all.

And our saviour is a coward too afraid to speak up who ended up sabotaging the Crucible project that hundreds of millions died to build.  You might not like the Crucible plot, but building it and then not using it is morally indefensible.

Or save you from the reaper trap and might give a damn chance of survival to this ungrateful race.

I'm not going to be grateful to Shepard the moron who apparently thought conventional victory was possible but didn't have the balls or the brains to speak up. How many people did we lose deploying the Crucible again? 

And now we're likely all dead anyway? Well done, Shepard.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:57 .

[Erez Kristal]

Coyotebay wrote...


I already explained to you why.  It does not need Shepard to do synthesis, any human DNA will do, any organic DNA it seems for that matter.  If it simply wants for the Reapers to end the cycle, it doesn't have to do anything, it knows from how the war is going down that the Alliance can't win.  If it really needed Shepard, it would have made it easy for Shepard to get to the Citadel.  There are no benefits to the galaxy building the Crucible instead of the Reapers.  It's the same blueprint.  There are no benefit to Shepard specifically jumping into the beam, it was never explained.  It was explained that DNA was needed, period.  The only hint that is given as to the Catalyst's motivation is that it mentions organics being ready for the synthesis evolution and that the old Reaper solution didn't work anymore.  So I guess you could say that the organics building the Crucible was like passing some sort of test in the Catalyst's eye.  I think it just wanted to meet Shepard, so when Shepard made it on board, it brought him up for a chat.  But no, the Catalyst did not need him.

so you are a synthesis expert now, does that mean you think the catalyst is bluffing???  the catalyst told you itself that it needed shepard.
Would have made it easy for shepard to make it to the citadel...  http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10382556/1

so if the alliance cant win, the catalyst decided to be a sport and give them a better chance? 


If the galaxy builds the crucible, they need to spend a lot of resources(time and valueable equipment)

[Erez Kristal]

rashie wrote...

 How do you know that refusal or synthesis is not just a vision in shepards head after he passed out near Anderson as well? You can't know since your shepard lost consciousness before getting taken to the Catalyst, all 4 options is just visions from shepard while passed out.

could be, gotta work with what you have

Modifié par erezike, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:00 .

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


I'm not going to be grateful to Shepard the moron who apparently thought conventional victory was possible but didn't have the balls or the brains to speak up. How many people did we lose deploying the Crucible again? 

And now we're likely all dead anyway? Well done, Shepard.

I thought about writing something to respond.
But im done covering biowares ass on this one.
Shepard was indoctrianted by bioware and was forced to stupidity. this is why he never spoke against the crucible. or hacket or anderson.

[Coyotebay]

erezike wrote...
so you are a synthesis expert now, does that mean you think the catalyst is bluffing???  the catalyst told you itself that it needed shepard.
Would have made it easy for shepard to make it to the citadel...  http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10382556/1

so if the alliance cant win, the catalyst decided to be a sport and give them a better chance? 


If the galaxy builds the crucible, they need to spend a lot of resources(time and valueable equipment)

I'm not going to try to explain the horrible writing that went into this whole crucible plot and how much of what happens at the end doesn't make sense.  The Catalyst and the Reapers didn't know the Alliance was building the Crucible until Cerberus tipped them off.  And what happens?  The Reapers scramble the bulk of their forces to Earth to stop it.  If the Catalyst wanted the Crucible so it could do its synthesis thing, it would have rolled out the red carpet right up to the Citadel doorstep.  All anyone can surmise from the way events played out and from the Catalyst's own dialogue at the end is that it had some sort of epiphany when the Alliance succesffuly docked the Crucible.  It came to the conclusion that the time for the Reaper solution was done, and to try something different.  Why did it need Shepard?  I don't think that it literally needed Shepard, for the reasons I already said.  I think organics building the Crucible was like passing a test, and I think it saw Shepard - the person who defeated Sovereign and defeated the Collectors and enabled the Cruicble to be built in the first place - as a sort of figurehead of organics in this cycle that were somehow superior to any previous cycle.  So it gave Shepard the honor of making the choice from the three the Crucible gives because it believed Shepard was capable of making an informed decision.  So no, it wasn't being a "sport".  The Catalyst re-evaluated its opinion on the Reaper cycles based on the organics' success with the Crucible and had decided to go with one of the Crucile's options regardless of Shepard being there or not.  It also decided that instead of making the decision itself (synthesis), it was important to let the representative of the organics make the choice - a nod to free will and self-determination, to allow the organics to decide their own fate in this moment.  The whole point of the Reapers was to save organics in the long run, but its own twisted logic.  Now it was letting organics decide their future for the first time.

And yes I still think it's goofy, but I think that is what the writers, Casey or whoever, meant with this ending.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm sure the Yahg Imperium will be very happy that Shepard refused.

Yahg Minion: My lord we have discovered more information about the last cycle!

Yahg Emperor: Speak.

Yahg Minion: Okay so they docked that crucible thing, and then instead of using it their leader that Shepard sentient said "You know what screw it" or something to that effect. Then they all died.

Yahg Emperor: So...wait s/he could have won the war at a stroke and just...blew it?

Yahg Minion: Yes my lord.

Yahg Emperor: Wow what an idiot.