748 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathsaurer]

erezike wrote...

The thing is, if the catalyst wanted to help you or work with you. it would have offered to cease fire, to take the reapers back into the dark space. but the truth is. the catalyst is forcing you too choose on it terms

Well obviously. It's the one with all the power and very obviously a massive dick and oh yeah its the antagonist.

http://tvtropes.org/...dOrangeMorality

Seriously that's what it is running on. It's off the wall and seems random and illogical to us.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 19 juillet 2013 - 02:15 .

[The Twilight God]

erezike wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

erezike wrote...

Destroy - shoot tube, destroy crucible. shepard dies or is in very bad health. reapers have easier time winning.

So all the Reapers being killed off makes it easier for them to win...  

You already gave the punch line. What's the point in continuing this joke post beyond the first sentence?

Who said anything about reapers being killed???

I know you are a big destroy fan. which makes it all the harder to realise you should have been duped if the plot made any sesne.

I despise all of Bioware's endings . Destroy just happens to be the only viable option to defeat the Reapers making it the least ****ty. But it's crap nonetheless.

The MEHEM is the official ending. Bioware has been fired.

So how long are you going to keep this joke thread running?

[Erez Kristal]

Reorte wrote...

erezike wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The only logical choices are the ones where you either huskify the entire galaxy or rage quit and let the Reapers win?

I'm in a troll thread, aren't I?

You sound so certain the crucible will work.
Surely you have been trolled, Trolled by the catalyst that is.

And has been pointed out to you several times exactly the same is true for the other choices and it's as certain as can be that everyone is screwed anyway if you do nothing. The only reason for doing nothing is to make absolutely sure that Synthesis doesn't happen but, if you're taking the view that you are Shepard and only know what the character knows, no metagaming, and living within the universe instead of considering what a writer might come up with, then if you believe that Synthesis is possible you'd believe anything and make your choice anyway.

I dont know of synthesis is possibile. but if you are going to take a leap of faith and put yourself at the mercy of your enemies(surrender to them) your best bet is on finding a solution to their 'claimed' problem because this is the choice that make the catalyst the happiest, i have no way to know what will happen once shepard jumps to his death.
in synthesis but there is logic behind this way of surrender.

Refuse is rejecting this choice and increasing the galactic chances of winning the war against the reapers, this has nothng to do with selfish pride, its maing a calculated decision based on what you know at that point.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

Okay.... where do I even begin?
To me.... these two are ANYTHING but the "logical choice."
Synthesis... Genocide of natural evolution and choice. We will never get to see how evolution would have played out anymore - we basically force everyone down one spifcific path. The same thing the Reapers did.
Refuse ... it's a good concept, but the way BioWare forced it to be is BS. Why make it an instant loss? It basically forced the "you didn't care enough to make the necessary choice" ideal.

Bioware never made it an instant loss- renegade shepard doesnt speak of losing to the catalyst, 
This is the only cutscene where you know for sure shepard lives to fight again.
and even the cutscene afterward that shows liara vid doesnt mean much. it could simply means communication were lost from the different ressistance cells and they are watching liara lore guide 2000 years into the future.
Its all open to interpretation.

But you shouldnt make a decision on base of what bioware show you afterwards.
you should make a decision based on what your character knows at that moment.

Those two choices are the lesser evils, since it would make no sense for you enemy to offer you control and destroy.

[Erez Kristal]

Deathsaurer wrote...

erezike wrote...

The thing is, if the catalyst wanted to help you or work with you. it would have offered to cease fire, to take the reapers back into the dark space. but the truth is. the catalyst is forcing you too choose on it terms

Well obviously. It's the one with all the power and very obviously a massive dick and oh yeah its the antagonist.

http://tvtropes.org/...dOrangeMorality

Seriously that's what it is running on. It's off the wall and seems random and illogical to us.

Or maybe it does make sense and still only want to kill you and use your DNA?
And you just want to assume its illogical in order to have an easier time shooting that tube?

[Erez Kristal]

The Twilight God wrote...



I despise all of Bioware's endings . Destroy just happens to be the only viable option to defeat the Reapers making it the least ****ty. But it's crap nonetheless.

The MEHEM is the official ending. Bioware has been fired.

So how long are you going to keep this joke thread running?

So you agree that the catalyst allowing shepard to destroy the reapers through the crucibe makes no sense?
by allowing i mean- no destroying the crucible earlier, not taking over the citadel earlier, not closing the relays after wards.
Keeping the beam open, harbinger leaving the beam(werent the reapers winnng) not ground forces on the citadel to prevent shepard from coming, catalyst elevating shepard.

Shooting a tub in order to intiate a machine function, and not agreeing to pull back his forces which is a known military stratgy

reapers crucible tactics/

a Threatening Presence: Deterrence Strategies.[/b][1] Make people think they will lose, bluff if needed. People want an easy victory and will not attack if they think they will lose- make the galaxy think they cant win in others means but only through the use of the crucible/
.
Lose The Battles But Win The War: Grand Strategy.[/b][1] Have a bigger plan- group the entire galaxy forces in one location of the reapers choosing, make them think they are winning at by succeededing with the crucible and then crush their hopes

Control the Dynamic: Forcing Strategies.[/b][1] Be in control. Be assertive. Control your opponent's mind. Move them into your territory.- luring the galaxy to earth and to the beam.
 
Envelop The Enemy: The Annihilation Strategy.[/b][1] Maintain constant pressure on your opponent to defeat their will power.-  the reapers use all their energy to make you think they have no weakness. they use most of their fuel at the beginning of the war. which is why they need to make the war short.

21) Negotiate While Advancing: The Diplomatic-War Strategy.[/b][1] When negotiating a settlement you should not let up on the pressure to advance. This provides you more to negotiate with and does not give your opponent time to regroup. - this is the catalyst forcing you to choose what it wants.

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 05:50 .

[KaiserShep]

Overanalysis of mishandled plot logic is a catalyst for frustration.

[Erez Kristal]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 This is a silly topic. if we're really talking about ONLY roleplaying, let's see what we know:
Destroy: will destroy the Reapers or so The Catalyst (heretofore called TC) tells us. NOTE: HE IS AGAINST IT AND PUSHES US AWAY FROM IT
Synthesis: will make organics and synthetics the same--or so TC tells us (if his word is not trustworthy the first time around, it isn't now either). NOTE: THE CATALYST PUSHES YOU TOWARDS THIS CHOICE
Control: will allow you to control the Reapers, or so TC tells us. Again, no more or less trustworthy than the other choices.
Refuse: leaves the world to a sure--I said sure--that's right, there's no chance of beating the Reapers period. Thinking otherwise is incorrect, it doesn't matter what you want to believe--destruction.

 

Right now you seem to agree with me that the catalyst cant be trusted.
Which means you have no way of knowing how to activiate the crucible. you also just followed a very strange chain of events in which the reapers made it hard for you to reach the citadel, but still made it possibile, they allowed you to reach it.

Lets talk about the no chance of beating the reapers.
What would your shepard do if he just found out the crucible wasnt working.
You are injured and have a working radio capable with talking to hacket and anderson. so most likey the normandy aswell.

KaiserShep wrote...

Overanalysis of mishandled plot logic is a catalyst for frustration.

It can leads to an intelligent debate, or just show the mishandled plot in its full glory.
who ever wrote it thought he was being very smart about it. well...

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:04 .

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

Lets talk about the no chance of beating the reapers.
What would your shepard do if he just found out the crucible wasnt working.

He would give up, but he would not go down without a fight, even though he would be fully aware that fighting is futile and that all hope is lost.

[Erez Kristal]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

erezike wrote...

Lets talk about the no chance of beating the reapers.
What would your shepard do if he just found out the crucible wasnt working.

He would give up, but he would not go down without a fight, even though he would be fully aware that fighting is futile and that all hope is lost.

claiming the fighting is futile sounds to me like giving up.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why don't we just have a little girl go up to the catalyst and ask it why it's being so mean, and than gather around the christmas tree to sing our merry who carol. Maybe it's heart will grow 3 sizes that cycle and it'll call off this whole silly affair.

[Erez Kristal]

EntropicAngel wrote...



For the first part, sure. But that means that Synthesis is JUST AS UNTRUSTWORTHY as Destroy and Control.

And for no chance of beating them, ever since Mass Effect 1 and Sovereign, the ME series has painted the Reapers as impossible to beat through conventional means. It isn't possible. It never was.

I said from the beginning that synthesis is a wild gamble, but if you choose to submit and put yourself at the mercy of the reapers, you should do it through the option which make them the happiest and could alter the variables.
Its still a leap of faith but less than the other options. You dont need control and destroy options in order to make the reapers stop killing organics. they could just stop. they dont need you for it.

No chance of beating them? thats what you tell your men that fight under you.
There were already many reapers dead in this world, soveriegn for all his glory was dead, collector base destroyed, turians destroyed many reapers, on the battle of earth the galaxy managed to destroy many reapers. 

The leviathans have managed to escape the reapers for millions of years. javik managed to stay frosted for 50,000 years.

Protheans had a big cache on illos.
They even managed to  sabotage the citadel.
You have better means than what the protheans had. have some faith.

[KaiserShep]

I imagine one would also have to have faith that the beam actually does more than simply incinerate whatever the hell is tossed into it.

"How do I know it won't just turn me into space dust?"

"LOL, just do it, ok?"

I'd rather take my chances on the option that pleases them the least. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:22 .

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine one would also have to have faith that the beam actually does more than simply incinerate whatever the hell is tossed into it.

"How do I know it won't just turn me into space dust?"

"LOL, just do it, ok?"

I'd rather take my chances on the option that pleases them the least. 

That option is refuse.

[KaiserShep]

And as that option is completely boned, I'd rather choose a balance between an option that both displeases the Catalyst, and at least takes an attempt to kill more reapers.

[Erez Kristal]

EntropicAngel wrote...


You didn't put yourself at the mercy of the Reapers. You put yourself at the mercy of the Catalyst, who isn't a Reaper. The difference may seem insignificant, but as a non-Reaper, the concerns of the Reapers don't...concern him.

You only killed Sovereign because he used up his shields to re-animate Saren. We don't know how many Reapers the turians destroyed or were destroyed on Earth. Conventional victory is impossible and was from the first game.

 
If the catalyst claim to be controling the reaperes, there is no way to know if it does. this is a circular of logic. but if you assume he has any power, then putting yourself at the mercy of the catalyst is the same as putting yourself at the mercy of the reapers.

Destroying the reapers-
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

And as that option is completely boned, I'd rather choose a balance between an option that both displeases the Catalyst, and at least takes an attempt to kill more reapers.

the destroy option still pleases the catalyst, its the lesser victory for it
If it cant have you for synthesis it might aswell have you dead.
Like the heroes of the other circles.

If you really want to ****** it off you will have to refuse.
Only in refuse are you breaing off from it game.

Destroy is the obvious choice and therefor the one the least likely to work.
Why would it allow you to destroy it if it could just fly away into dark space?
Why would it force shepard to die if it can simply fly the reapers into the sun.

No.. destroy makes no sense.

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:32 .

[KaiserShep]

This would work, if ships could be rebuilt, resources became infinite, and crews no longer needed to sleep.

erezike wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

And as that option is completely boned, I'd rather choose a balance between an option that both displeases the Catalyst, and at least takes an attempt to kill more reapers.

the destroy option still pleases the catalyst, its the lesser victory for it
If it cant have you for synthesis it might aswell have you dead.
Like the heroes of the other circles.

If you really want to ****** it off you will have to refuse.
Only in refuse are you breaing off from it game.

Destroy is the obvious choice and therefor the one the least likely to work.
Why would it allow you to destroy it if it could just fly away into dark space?
Why would it force shepard to die if it can simply fly the reapers into the sun.

No.. destroy makes no sense.

The destroy option does not please the catalyst. It simply telling you this option is not proof. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:38 .

[Erez Kristal]

EntropicAngel wrote...

It is not the same, because the Reapers and the Catalyst have different goals. The goal of the Catalyst is to end the cycle. The goal of the Reapers is just to do what he tells them to do--harvest organics. So if there's a way to end the cycle that doesn't involve harvesting organics, for example, he would be for it but they would be against it.

And no way am I reading that wall of print, sorry.

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers

the catalyst could always give the reapers new instructions, if he controls them then its not problem
The question here is, does he control them? he claims he does
In order to believe control works, you need to believe it can already control them.
If it doesnt, then even if you could replace it, it wouldnt work.

Its a lot of circular logic here. but bottom line if we assume the catalyst controls the reapers, their agendas and can make them build relays then it could also find a solution that ends the cycle without harvesting organics.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

This would work, if ships could be rebuilt, resources became infinite, and crews no longer needed to sleep.

in a galaxy, resources are infinite, the geth dont need to sleep or eat. and the ships can be rebuilt on many locations.

[KaiserShep]

Resources are never infinite, even on a galactic scale. Time to find resources of a significant concentration, time to reach these resources, the energy required to do so, maintaining the equipment required to obtain these resources, refine them, and actually put them to good use before the enemy advances on your position are all major factors that make resources anything but infinite. There's also a little matter of maintaining a living crew that has to perform some basic life processes, like eat and sleep and have breathable air wherever they are. The geth are just one group. Their ability to copy themselves and produce more platforms won't save them against constant brute force from an enemy that shares most of their key advantages.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:47 .