748 réponses à ce sujet

[Triforce Hermit]

erezike wrote...

Triforce Hermit wrote...


To disprove you reasoning on why refuse makes sense, the Reapers took the Citadel to Earth.....I doubt they pushed. Harbinger probably took control like how Sovreign did in ME1. So Harby accessed the census of the entire galaxy. They would find and kill every recorded sentinet being and the remaining ones would not be able to reproduce just like how Vigil said what happened to the Protheans. The Reapers will win against the already weakened forces on Earth since the galaxy poured all its resources into the final push. The Reapers win and the cycle continues. Refuse is illogical and only serves the purpose of granting enjoyment of shooting the little punk starchild. There is no speculation in this. This has been proved by Vigil, who has no reason lie. You can't disprove this. It is a fact. The Reapers are not stupid. They still thought they would win and to do so needed the census records. They did not ignore them, that wouldn't make sense.

thanks for stopping by triforce.
I didnt understand a few things you mentioned that debunk why refuse is logical.
1) how does the fact the reapers took the citadel to earth make refush less logical?
2) The reapers on the citadel can only find the information which is on the citadel, there is nothing to indicate that they didnt already acess all the information on the citdael sine they already knew their targets on the galaxy all too well before they took over it.
Bases and facilities that never appeared on the citadel records will be safe.
3) What do we know of vigil really?
4) The reapers Win? Most likely but question is when are your chances for survival are greater.
If you refuse and shepard lives? or if you jump into the beam, put your hands on the elecrifying rods which result in instant death or shoot a tube which will result in a most likely death.

So why are the other options more logical?

1) What I was saying is that the Reapers accessed the Citadel to move it while also accessing military and census data
2)Vigil said the Reapers absolutely thorough. The Reapers have destroyed races for millions of years, I doubt they miss military bases.
3) He was one of the Prothean ace in the holes who was right on eveyrthing he said.
4) Control is stupid, Synthesis is stupid. Destory may kill Shepard, but it may not. Destroy is hope. The galaxy will build their own future if they survive.

The logical option is to believe the Catalyst. Shepard didn't have time to argue or think it about when every minute 1000 more people die. Not to mention he was dieing as well. So any prolonged thought on the matter would be illogical. Shepard or any other normal person would believe the catalyst.

Not arguing Synthesis is wrong, just that Refuse is illogical and stupid.

[Erez Kristal]

Triforce Hermit wrote...


1) What I was saying is that the Reapers accessed the Citadel to move it while also accessing military and census data
2)Vigil said the Reapers absolutely thorough. The Reapers have destroyed races for millions of years, I doubt they miss military bases.
3) He was one of the Prothean ace in the holes who was right on eveyrthing he said.
4) Control is stupid, Synthesis is stupid. Destory may kill Shepard, but it may not. Destroy is hope. The galaxy will build their own future if they survive.

The logical option is to believe the Catalyst. Shepard didn't have time to argue or think it about when every minute 1000 more people die. Not to mention he was dieing as well. So any prolonged thought on the matter would be illogical. Shepard or any other normal person would believe the catalyst.

Not arguing Synthesis is wrong, just that Refuse is illogical and stupid.

I adressed 1) the citadel has military information, however the galaxy had a lot of time to destroy sesetive information and move assests off the grid during the war. + not all information was available for grab on the citadel
2) Yes there we have illos with thousands or millions of pods. we have eden prime. and this is after the proteahn were taken by suprise. the council had 30 years to prepare for the reapers(since shanxi) and the rest of the galaxy had 3 years. people with capabilities made backup plans. also take undernotice pirates who have never been on the grid in the first place.
3) Vigil was all the data a bunch of dugged in bunker protheans who were taken by suprise had on the reapers. for all we know the reapers were awake the entire time and inside the galaxy in the first place.
Vigil was a machine full of assumptions. and dont get me even started on the other prothean VI from thessia, who might aswell been a reaper trap
4) Destroy may kill shepard and it could very likely be that, thats it will it is going to do since it make no sense for your enemy to offer you to kill him. the catalyst showed no remorse or wanted any alternatives(fly the reapers away or into the sun) No, destroy is one of the catalyst favorites even if its his least favorite.

The reapers allowed shepard to enter the citadel and only him since they wanted him to feel he succeeded getting there on his own, they also wanted him crushed, without any hope. People with not hope are easily subjected

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Bases and facilities that never appeared on the citadel records will be safe

Because this worked so well for the other cycles. Why is it that he thinks conventional victory is a possibility when he's suggesting virtually every idea that any of the previous cycles would attempt at some point?

Illos? Eden prime?  and who knows what else is out there in the enormous galaxy.

Exactly my point.

Do you know the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over expecting different results. Like dropping a pen a million times and getting angry that it doesn't float to the ceiling.

Now,  you keep advertising this conventional victory approach and make it sound so simple: "Guys, we just need to do x, y, and z!". If we spread ourselves out, the Reapers can't find us! If we stealth bomb them, the Reapers can'f hit us!

And it's all a waste. How many cycles have passed? A million different points of view, a million different potential tactics and strategies to employ, a million different races, and each one died. And in the beginning there weren't this many actual Reapers floating around, as Harbinger is indicated to be the first.

[Triforce Hermit]

erezike wrote...

Triforce Hermit wrote...


1) What I was saying is that the Reapers accessed the Citadel to move it while also accessing military and census data
2)Vigil said the Reapers absolutely thorough. The Reapers have destroyed races for millions of years, I doubt they miss military bases.
3) He was one of the Prothean ace in the holes who was right on eveyrthing he said.
4) Control is stupid, Synthesis is stupid. Destory may kill Shepard, but it may not. Destroy is hope. The galaxy will build their own future if they survive.

The logical option is to believe the Catalyst. Shepard didn't have time to argue or think it about when every minute 1000 more people die. Not to mention he was dieing as well. So any prolonged thought on the matter would be illogical. Shepard or any other normal person would believe the catalyst.

Not arguing Synthesis is wrong, just that Refuse is illogical and stupid.

I adressed 1) the citadel has military information, however the galaxy had a lot of time to destroy sesetive information and move assests off the grid during the war. + not all information was available for grab on the citadel
2) Yes there we have illos with thousands or millions of pods. we have eden prime. and this is after the proteahn were taken by suprise. the council had 30 years to prepare for the reapers(since shanxi) and the rest of the galaxy had 3 years. people with capabilities made backup plans. also take undernotice pirates who have never been on the grid in the first place.
3) Vigil was all the data a bunch of dugged in bunker protheans who were taken by suprise had on the reapers. for all we know the reapers were awake the entire time and inside the galaxy in the first place.
Vigil was a machine full of assumptions. and dont get me even started on the other prothean VI from thessia, who might aswell been a reaper trap
4) Destroy may kill shepard and it could very likely be that, thats it will it is going to do since it make no sense for your enemy to offer you to kill him. the catalyst showed no remorse or wanted any alternatives(fly the reapers away or into the sun) No, destroy is one of the catalyst favorites even if its his least favorite.

The reapers allowed shepard to enter the citadel and only him since they wanted him to feel he succeeded getting there on his own, they also wanted him crushed, without any hope. People with not hope are easily subjected

1)The Reapers can indoctrinate and most likely had agents on the Citadel. Who would've care about an Asari diplomat from Thessia arriving on a refugee shuttle and asking for access to data on Asari worlds? The Reapers use subterfuge a lot.
2.)And those bunkers deactivated and killed them. Javik is the last of a dead race, extinction is still the fate of his people.The reapers will outwait any race.
3) I'm not touching this with a 30ft pole.
4) The Catalyst hated the idea of Destroy and tried to shove the "Organics needs the Reapers and Synthetics" ideal. I should not and tried to argue Destroy is right. I'm here to argue that Refuse is illogical.

Modifié par Triforce Hermit, 24 juillet 2013 - 12:58 .

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Bases and facilities that never appeared on the citadel records will be safe

Because this worked so well for the other cycles. Why is it that he thinks conventional victory is a possibility when he's suggesting virtually every idea that any of the previous cycles would attempt at some point?

Illos? Eden prime?  and who knows what else is out there in the enormous galaxy.

Exactly my point.

Do you know the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over expecting different results. Like dropping a pen a million times and getting angry that it doesn't float to the ceiling.

Now,  you keep advertising this conventional victory approach and make it sound so simple: "Guys, we just need to do x, y, and z!". If we spread ourselves out, the Reapers can't find us! If we stealth bomb them, the Reapers can'f hit us!

And it's all a waste. How many cycles have passed? A million different points of view, a million different potential tactics and strategies to employ, a million different races, and each one died. And in the beginning there weren't this many actual Reapers floating around, as Harbinger is indicated to be the first.

Do you know whats an even greater definition of insanity?

Wishful thinking that the candies your enemy (who is also killing you at that same time) is offering you wll help you defeat him.
I never said refsue was an ideal choice.
But it is a hell lot better and make much more sense than the others.

Calculating your chances of sucess are irrelevant, its calculating your chances against the chances of destroy and control working which are all that matters.
If you think that refuse as a better chance of working than would destroy or control then its worth it.
If not then it means you answer yes to two of my first questions:
1) do you trust the catalyst
2) do you see no alternatives.

And if you trust the catalyst despite all you know... then i think you are being very naive, unless you can give me any real reason why the catalyst should be trusted.

as for 2) there are always alternatives there are always more things that you can do. the reapers want to you think they are undefeatable even though the history has shown you otherwise. the prothean cycle and the existence of the geth, korgan and undesrstood reaper technology gives this cycle more chance than any cycle ever before.

[Erez Kristal]

Triforce Hermit wrote...

[
1)The Reapers can indoctrinate and most likely had agents on the Citadel. Who would've care about an Asari diplomat from Thessia arriving on a refugee shuttle and asking for access to data on Asari worlds? The Reapers use subterfuge a lot.
2.)And those bunkers deactivated and killed them. The reapers will outwait any race.
3) I'm not touching this with a 30ft pole.
4) The Catalyst hated the idea of Destroy and tried to shove the "Organics needs the Reapers and Synthetics" ideal. I should not and tried to argue Destroy is right. I'm here to argue that Refuse is illogical.

1) i agree, i think the reapers knew a lot more than they were giving, but it still doesnt mean they know everything.
2) Will they? what do we know of their energy consumption? of their need to hybernate
and even if they could. its a numbers game. kill more reapers than they can recreate them. 
3) next time. dont bring up things you cant support. it just makes you look silly.
4) Hated it? hardly. watch that scene again. that catalyst prefers shepard to choose other options. the only option which it doesnt like is refuse.
It would like shepard to choose synthesis but if it cant have that then destroy would do...
Dont you ask yourself why?

Modifié par erezike, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:01 .

[Triforce Hermit]

erezike wrote...

Triforce Hermit wrote...

[
1)The Reapers can indoctrinate and most likely had agents on the Citadel. Who would've care about an Asari diplomat from Thessia arriving on a refugee shuttle and asking for access to data on Asari worlds? The Reapers use subterfuge a lot.
2.)And those bunkers deactivated and killed them. The reapers will outwait any race.
3) I'm not touching this with a 30ft pole.
4) The Catalyst hated the idea of Destroy and tried to shove the "Organics needs the Reapers and Synthetics" ideal. I should not and tried to argue Destroy is right. I'm here to argue that Refuse is illogical.

1) i agree, i think the reapers knew a lot more than they were giving, but it still doesnt mean they know everything.
2) Will they? what do we know of their energy consumption? of their need to hybernate
and even if they could. its a numbers game. kill more reapers than they can recreate them. 
3) next time. dont bring up things you cant support. it just makes you look silly.
4) Hated it? hardly. watch that scene again. that catalyst prefers shepard to choose other options. the only option which it doesnt like is refuse.
It would like shepard to choose synthesis but if it cant have that then destroy would do...
Dont you ask yourself why?

1.) But they know enough
2.) If a Reaper that has been half-destoryed for +50,000 years is still kicking, then I think that speaks volumes about their energy consumption.
4.) Which is why he went on his little pro-synthetic rant. "Can you imagine life without Synthetics?"

If what you are getting at is right, then the Crucible is a Reaper trap meant to force the races to pool their sources into only to be dissapointed and crush their hope. If thats the case, then there are plot holes. I'll leave it off as Bioware's lazy writing.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Do you know whats an even greater definition of insanity?

Wishful thinking that the candies your enemy (who is also killing you at that same time) is offering you wll help you defeat him.

Wishful thinking it is not. Desperation it is.

Wishful thinking would be: "Well, of course the Catalyst is telling the truth! Lying is morally wrong and he just wants to be our savior!".

Desperation is Shepard looking around the room, realizing he has no idea how this machine functions, realizing that he threw all his resources desperately at this machine, and has nothing left to lose. If we're dead here anyway, might as well try whatever there is.

But it is a hell lot better and make much more sense than the others.

It would have made (slightly) more sense before Shepard threw all his resources at another suicide mission. If your plan to stop the Reapers revolves around throwing your resources at building an unknown device with an unknown function, then you damn well better not have any alternatives left.

Calculating your chances of sucess are irrelevant, its calculating your chances against the chances of destroy and control working which are all that matters.

And the numbers would say there is more likely a chance of success with Destroy and Control.

It's possible the Catalyst is telling the truth. Hell, if you've met the Leviathans, you do have a confirmation from them regarding the Catalyst's purpose. So he's at least not entirely lying regarding some topics. So if he's confirming what the Leviathans (our technical allies) are saying and if he can get rid of Shepard so easily (and he can), there's the possibility that there is more than meets the eye.

Shepard has every other cycle as an example of conventional victory being impossible. Granted, he (may have) united the Galaxy, but now that the Reapers can turn off the Citadel at their convenience, we're in no better a position than any other cycle. Actually, worse since they can theoretically take out all our forces right here.

And if you trust the catalyst despite all you know... then i think you are being very naive, unless you can give me any real reason why the catalyst should be trusted.

Simple: if he wanted me dead, I'd be dead. The Catalyst controls the Reapers, the Reapers control their forces. Yeah, Shepard was lucky enough to get up the beam into the Citadel.

as for 2) there are always alternatives there are always more things that you can do. the reapers want to you think they are undefeatable even though the history has shown you otherwise. the prothean cycle and the existence of the geth, korgan and undesrstood reaper technology gives this cycle more chance than any cycle ever before.

Again, stop making things up. History has shown that the Reapers were victorious. Every single time. Every other cycle had its own set of races with special features and how did they all end up? Dead. Hell, the Leviathans ruled an entire empire and without even a single actual Reaper the Catalyst brought all them down. Krogan are worth nothing against Reaper Capital Ships. I don't see their extra set of testicles being much value.

We're facing a Reaper armada and you're still trying to maintain this "We can do it guys, believe it!" attitude.  

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

Do you know whats an even greater definition of insanity?

Wishful thinking that the candies your enemy (who is also killing you at that same time) is offering you wll help you defeat him.

Wishful thinking it is not. Desperation it is.

Wishful thinking would be: "Well, of course the Catalyst is telling the truth! Lying is morally wrong and he just wants to be our savior!".

Desperation is Shepard looking around the room, realizing he has no idea how this machine functions, realizing that he threw all his resources desperately at this machine, and has nothing left to lose. If we're dead here anyway, might as well try whatever there is.

But it is a hell lot better and make much more sense than the others.

It would have made (slightly) more sense before Shepard threw all his resources at another suicide mission. If your plan to stop the Reapers revolves around throwing your resources at building an unknown device with an unknown function, then you damn well better not have any alternatives left.

Calculating your chances of sucess are irrelevant, its calculating your chances against the chances of destroy and control working which are all that matters.

And the numbers would say there is more likely a chance of success with Destroy and Control.

It's possible the Catalyst is telling the truth. Hell, if you've met the Leviathans, you do have a confirmation from them regarding the Catalyst's purpose. So he's at least not entirely lying regarding some topics. So if he's confirming what the Leviathans (our technical allies) are saying and if he can get rid of Shepard so easily (and he can), there's the possibility that there is more than meets the eye.

Shepard has every other cycle as an example of conventional victory being impossible. Granted, he (may have) united the Galaxy, but now that the Reapers can turn off the Citadel at their convenience, we're in no better a position than any other cycle. Actually, worse since they can theoretically take out all our forces right here.

And if you trust the catalyst despite all you know... then i think you are being very naive, unless you can give me any real reason why the catalyst should be trusted.

Simple: if he wanted me dead, I'd be dead. The Catalyst controls the Reapers, the Reapers control their forces. Yeah, Shepard was lucky enough to get up the beam into the Citadel.

as for 2) there are always alternatives there are always more things that you can do. the reapers want to you think they are undefeatable even though the history has shown you otherwise. the prothean cycle and the existence of the geth, korgan and undesrstood reaper technology gives this cycle more chance than any cycle ever before.

Again, stop making things up. History has shown that the Reapers were victorious. Every single time. Every other cycle had its own set of races with special features and how did they all end up? Dead. Hell, the Leviathans ruled an entire empire and without even a single actual Reaper the Catalyst brought all them down. Krogan are worth nothing against Reaper Capital Ships. I don't see their extra set of testicles being much value.

We're facing a Reaper armada and you're still trying to maintain this "We can do it guys, believe it!" attitude.  

Wishful think born out of desperation is still wishful thinking. hoping something would work just because your options are terribile without anything to support it will work sure takes a lot of faith.

I agree it would more sense before, however we didn have that luxury.

About the leavithans and the catalyst- The leavithans claim they have created the catalyst in order to stop synthetics from wiping out organic life.
the plan may have changed since then, since ais are able to change their programming.

Shepard doesnt have data beyond the prothean cycle, for all he cant tell they might have tried to use the crucible and failed due to careful reaper planning. activating the crucible on every cycle result in greater damage to the the cycles which damaged their chances of conventional victory

Excatly if it wanted you dead you would have been dead.. so why is shepard alive and able to talk with the catalyt? anything strange happened to shepard in the last 15 minutes before talking to the catalysts. Hint- ever since he got hit by a reaper capital ship.


Since we do not know how the levaithans were defeated there we are in no place to compare the two.
It could have been that the leviathans were a lazy bunch who left all their defences to an a ai (oh they did that didnt they) who used thrall races for their every need(oh wait they did that too) and so when finnaly they had to step up to defend themselves they were helpless

Modifié par erezike, 24 juillet 2013 - 03:03 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

About the leavithans and the catalyst- The leavithans claim they have created the catalyst in order to stop synthetics from wiping out organic life.
the plan may have changed since then, since ais are able to change their programming.

Yes, and the Leviathans also explain to you that the Reapers were the Catalyst's method of fulfilling that original plan. They even say that he's fulfilling his programming, despite it being completely different from how they predicted.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 juillet 2013 - 02:48 .

[CronoDragoon]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Yes, and the Leviathans also explain to you that the Reapers were the Catalyst's method of fulfilling that original plan. They even say that he's fulfilling his programming, despite it being completely different from how they predicted.

Basically: the means have changed, the end has not.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Shepard doesnt have data beyond the prothean cycle, for all he cant tell they might have tried to use the crucible and failed due to careful reaper planning. activating the crucible on every cycle result in greater damage to the the cycles which damaged their chances of conventional victory

So we're back to conspiracy theories then.

The Reapers wanted us to activate the Crucible so badly that they (and Cerberus) did everything in their power to prevent us from both creating and activating it. Makes sense. That's why they decided to highjack the Citadel and prevent the Crucible's docking?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 juillet 2013 - 02:50 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Yes, and the Leviathans also explain to you that the Reapers were the Catalyst's method of fulfilling that original plan. They even say that he's fulfilling his programming, despite it being completely different from how they predicted.

Basically: the means have changed, the end has not.

Exactly.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

Shepard doesnt have data beyond the prothean cycle, for all he cant tell they might have tried to use the crucible and failed due to careful reaper planning. activating the crucible on every cycle result in greater damage to the the cycles which damaged their chances of conventional victory

So we're back to conspiracy theories then.

The Reapers wanted us to activate the Crucible so badly that they (and Cerberus) did everything in their power to prevent us from both creating and activating it. Makes sense. That's why they decided to highjack the Citadel and prevent the Crucible's docking?

Cerberus only became pro reaper after cronos station and even then it was a subtle pro reaper. at first they believed in different means to reach the same goal.

And yes the reapers wanted you to activate the crucible.
Which is why they made it so easy for you to reach it there.
(easy, yes. just look at battle plans) Especially look at last 15 minutes.

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Yes, and the Leviathans also explain to you that the Reapers were the Catalyst's method of fulfilling that original plan. They even say that he's fulfilling his programming, despite it being completely different from how they predicted.

Basically: the means have changed, the end has not.

How do you know?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

And yes the reapers wanted you to activate the crucible.
Which is why they made it so easy for you to reach it there.
(easy, yes. just look at battle plans) Especially look at last 15 minutes.

Which accounts for why instead of leaving the Citadel exactly where it was, they chose to highjack it, force Shepard to fight his way to it, try to destroy it if Shepard takes too long to decide, and risk Harbinger blowing him to hell during the beam run.

Here's a less assinine version of that plan for you: the Reapers leave the Citadel exactly where it is and Shepard attaches the Crucible without a pointless battle. That would be the logical version of your insane plan.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

And yes the reapers wanted you to activate the crucible.
Which is why they made it so easy for you to reach it there.
(easy, yes. just look at battle plans) Especially look at last 15 minutes.

Which accounts for why instead of leaving the Citadel exactly where it was, they chose to highjack it, force Shepard to fight his way to it, try to destroy it if Shepard takes too long to decide, and risk Harbinger blowing him to hell during the beam run.

Here's a less assinine version of that plan for you: the Reapers leave the Citadel exactly where it is and Shepard attaches the Crucible without a pointless battle. That would be the logical version of your insane plan.

Ahh Balad, this last post only show how much you were duped if you think they really tried to kill shepard.

1) why do they leave the beam open.
2) why does harby leaves.
3) if the reapers are giving the galactic united forces a pounding, why arent they better safeguarding their beam.
4) where are the rest of the husks and reaper forces to guard the beam and the citadel
5) why does the catalyst make the way open for shepard to follow(he controls the shifting walls. why does it elevatae the elvator and tells shepard to wake up.
6) why does the catalyst tells shepard how to destroy the reapers when it can simply order them into the sun or away,

Dont be naive... the reapers and the catalyst were playing you all along.

And dont even get me started about finding the crucible in the first place, and allowing the galaxy to build it.
(which i did to an extended period earlier)

This all thing smells like a set up. which is why destroy and control make no sense, no matter how tempting they sound. a reaper off button makes no sense. especially when it was given to you by the reapers.

[AlanC9]

Just for kicks, erezike, have you finally gone full IT on us? Lately you've been saying that the Crucible is a setup, rather than that Sehpard should think it's a setup.

I'll let BaladasDemnevanni handle the substance; I'm just curious about what kind of thread I'm reading.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 juillet 2013 - 04:06 .

[AlanC9]

Well, maybe I'll play a little

erezike wrote...
Shepard doesnt have data beyond the prothean cycle, for all he cant tell they might have tried to use the crucible and failed due to careful reaper planning. activating the crucible on every cycle result in greater damage to the the cycles which damaged their chances of conventional victory

This is not consistent with either Javik's experience or with Shepard's own. Javik's cycle was defeated in conventional fashion, and Shepard's cycle, despite being better-organized than Javik's, is losing. Badly. Before deploying the Crucible.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

Just for kicks, erezike, have you finally gone full IT on us? Lately you've been saying that the Crucible is a setup, rather than that Sehpard should think it's a setup.

I'll let BaladasDemnevanni handle the substance; I'm just curious about what kind of thread I'm reading.

No it. Crucible is a set up has nothing to do with it.
Dont forget that it endorse shooting the tube-destory.
This is just common sense, since there are too many questions open and too many coincidences happening at the endings. its either you dismiss it as bad writing and call it a day or you question the catalyst and his solutions.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, maybe I'll play a little

erezike wrote...
Shepard doesnt have data beyond the prothean cycle, for all he cant tell they might have tried to use the crucible and failed due to careful reaper planning. activating the crucible on every cycle result in greater damage to the the cycles which damaged their chances of conventional victory

This is not consistent with either Javik's experience or with Shepard's own. Javik's cycle was defeated in conventional fashion, and Shepard's cycle, despite being better-organized than Javik's, is losing. Badly. Before deploying the Crucible.

Since javik cycle was seperated by the reapers and is also assumed to have built the citadel. these two cycles are not the same.

It can be. that the crucible weakens the galactic resolve against the reapers.

[AlanC9]

erezike wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Just for kicks, erezike, have you finally gone full IT on us? Lately you've been saying that the Crucible is a setup, rather than that Sehpard should think it's a setup.

No it. Crucible is a set up has nothing to do with it.
Dont forget that it endorse shooting the tube-destory.

The common feature of all versions of IT is that at least some of the ending material is lies.  Since the Crucible is, in the end, shown to work exactly as described, how is your theory not IT?

Granted, you're pushing a fairly odd version of IT, but you're fundamentally in the same business The Twilight God was when he was pushing IT-Con.

[AlanC9]

erezike wrote...
Since javik cycle was seperated by the reapers and is also assumed to have built the citadel. these two cycles are not the same.

It can be. that the crucible weakens the galactic resolve against the reapers.

So the Crucible did something terrible to Javik's cycle that he also never heard about?

As near as I can tell all you're doing is piling up an endless succession of Russell's teapots here.

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...

How do you know?

How do I know that he's still following the mandate programmed into him? Because both he and the Leviathans tell me this is so. Why do you believe he's no longer trying to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics?

The reason he killed the Leviathans isn't because he changed his mandate or "turned" on them; as he says, the Leviathans did not realize they were part of the very problem that he was created to solve.

As a separate point, it's an interesting statement to consider: why did the Catalyst believe that the actions of the Leviathans were conducive towards conflict and the eventual extinction of organics?

[Kaipur]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...
Since javik cycle was seperated by the reapers and is also assumed to have built the citadel. these two cycles are not the same.

It can be. that the crucible weakens the galactic resolve against the reapers.

So the Crucible did something terrible to Javik's cycle that he also never heard about?

As near as I can tell all you're doing is piling up an endless succession of Russell's teapots here.

To play devil's advocate here, it is possible Javik wouldn't be aware of political mechanations since he was purely a soldier born and bred. Just as we aren't aware of everything our own governments are doing and how their actions may indirectly effect us. Javik was fighting a war on what seems to have been the future Eden Prime while the main core of Prothean society was involved in their struggles. Also, Javik mentions he wasn't aware of the progress of the crucible only that he'd heard about it. This doesn't suggest he knew much beyond periphery knowledge.