748 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaipur]

I'll be clear on my perspective of this debate, Mass Effect 3, in my opinion, was deeply flawed and didn't fulfill the requirements of a completed story. It is true that many cycles before didn't complete the crucible, not even the Protheans, and it is clear that the Reapers became aware of it. I don't believe it was a trap by the Reapers until the current cycle in which case they may MAY have tried to lure Shepard in. But then again, they just may have been trying to use the crucible as a weapon against the forces of the galaxy as a final insult to their overwhelming injury. In the end, this makes the crucible a joke. I do like the Indoctrination Theory myself. I thought it was better thought out that the choices we were given. Which is a sad statement to make. But regardless, we got some really good storylines in 3 but then handed an ending that really felt haphazard and not nearly as well thought out as the Krogan/Turian/Salarian stories and the Geth/Quarian conflict. The presence of Cerberus as an actual army [that the Illusive Man must be breeding on his own planet] really brought me out of the narrative. They felt like the baddie of the day and not like a believable threat in the Mass Effect universe. That's just my impression of course. And the fact that the Reapers became merely tools of a spoiled brat AI seriously enraged me like nothing else. I just stared at the television in disbelief for a full five minutes before making my final choice. Oi.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...


The common feature of all versions of IT is that at least some of the ending material is lies.  Since the Crucible is, in the end, shown to work exactly as described, how is your theory not IT?

Granted, you're pushing a fairly odd version of IT, but you're fundamentally in the same business The Twilight God was when he was pushing IT-Con.

Easy, because right now. we arent discussing if the crucible is really a trap or what happens in the cutscenes.
We are discussing if shooting the tube or shepard electrifying himself makes any sense.

From My shepard viewpoint it would make no sense for the catalyst to offer him the reapers kill or control switch.
My shepard was asking himselves these questions.
1) how come we suddenly found a reaper off switch that the reapers knew of.  Why is the crucible different in our circle.
2) why didnt the reapers take control of the citadel until now.
3) how am i alive?
4) why isnt harbinger shooting the normandy
5) why was the beam still open
6) why is harbinger leaving.
7) where is the rest of the reaper ressitance: 3 husks and one huskified turian, seriously?
8) how come its so easy for me to reach the citadel control panel.
9) if the beam was still open where are the rest of the forces, surely someone heard anderson or me over the radio
10) why did the catalyst elevate me up and didnt leave me to bleed on the floor
11) why is the catalsty pressuring on me to choose one of his three chocies
12) why cant the catalyst just send the reapers into the sun
13) why doesnt the catalyst stop killing my friends while we negotiate
14) why cant i blow the tube in a different way, why doesnt the catalyst do it himself or try to stop me.
15) since when does shooting a tube activate a machine instead of destroying it.

if you can answer all of these questions i will say you are right and i am wrong.(which is a precious thing on the internet and you know it) If you continue to go in a circular debate talking about the cutscenes then we will reach no where. and just repeat our statements.
So please educate me on these 15 questions

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...

erezike wrote...

How do you know?

How do I know that he's still following the mandate programmed into him? Because both he and the Leviathans tell me this is so. Why do you believe he's no longer trying to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics?

The reason he killed the Leviathans isn't because he changed his mandate or "turned" on them; as he says, the Leviathans did not realize they were part of the very problem that he was created to solve.

As a separate point, it's an interesting statement to consider: why did the Catalyst believe that the actions of the Leviathans were conducive towards conflict and the eventual extinction of organics?

So what you are saying is, your reapers friends always tell you the truth. and we can all trust whatever they say on a 100%
What are the reapers plan now? it seems their plans end up with using organics as new ship materials, storing their collective minds inside data files. 
To what purpose? i have no idea, Since its impossibile for me to take anything the reaper say at face value i can only tell from what the reapers are doing.

We dont know the reasons it killed the levithans, all we have are the leviathans assumptions.

-at a seperate point. we can only assume answers to this questions if we believe the catalyst in the first place.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

Dont be naive... the reapers and the catalyst were playing you all along.

And dont even get me started about finding the crucible in the first place, and allowing the galaxy to build it.
(which i did to an extended period earlier)

This all thing smells like a set up. which is why destroy and control make no sense, no matter how tempting they sound. a reaper off button makes no sense. especially when it was given to you by the reapers.

I have a theory. It's called the: "If the Crucible was a trap, the Reapers should have let us keep the Citadel" theory. 
It's crazy, I know, but I suspect that it makes ten times more sense than the Reapers wanting us to activate the Citadel and so making that nearly impossible...by preventing us from activating the Crucible, not to mention straight out attacking it.

Oh and just to demonstrate (again) how idiotic your point is: if the Reapers want us to be activating the Crucible each cycle, it's probably not a good idea to take control of the Citadel each time and close off the relays, therefore preventing us from activating the Crucible period.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

We dont know the reasons it killed the levithans, all we have are the leviathans assumptions.

-at a seperate point. we can only assume answers to this questions if we believe the catalyst in the first place.

Burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate why their purpose changed. It's not an assumption if the Leviathans were there to witness the first round of extinctions.

Geez, this is IT theory all over again, except even more foolish.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

Dont be naive... the reapers and the catalyst were playing you all along.

And dont even get me started about finding the crucible in the first place, and allowing the galaxy to build it.
(which i did to an extended period earlier)

This all thing smells like a set up. which is why destroy and control make no sense, no matter how tempting they sound. a reaper off button makes no sense. especially when it was given to you by the reapers.

I have a theory. It's called the: "If the Crucible was a trap, the Reapers should have let us keep the Citadel" theory. 
It's crazy, I know, but I suspect that it makes ten times more sense than the Reapers wanting us to activate the Citadel and so making that nearly impossible...by preventing us from activating the Crucible, not to mention straight out attacking it.

Oh and just to demonstrate (again) how idiotic your point is: if the Reapers want us to be activating the Crucible each cycle, it's probably not a good idea to take control of the Citadel each time and close off the relays, therefore preventing us from activating the Crucible period.

If the reapers left the citadel in the galaxy hands you would have had more time to examine in and see what it do,
By creating pressure points they forced shepard to make a decision that suited them the most.
Its a well known military and clever tactic to use.

This is how you debunk a theory. now please try seriously this time to debunk mine. start by answering those 15 questions.

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

We dont know the reasons it killed the levithans, all we have are the leviathans assumptions.

-at a seperate point. we can only assume answers to this questions if we believe the catalyst in the first place.

Burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate why their purpose changed. It's not an assumption if the Leviathans were there to witness the first round of extinctions.

Geez, this is IT theory all over again, except even more foolish.

Its always amusing to hear this burden of proof nonsesne.
No the burden isnt on me because you brought it up.
If you want to use this as evidence you have to make sure the evidence stick.
The levithans has assumptions. you are using the leviathans assumptions. which means you are assuming something that might as well be false.
If you want me to treat this as serious evidence you have to back it up with facts.
Otherwise it wont stick.

You can do better than this baladas.
Lets use facts for our arguments.
answer me about those 15 questions on all those events which make no sense.
why would the reapers allow shepard to make those choices in the first place?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

If the reapers left the citadel in the galaxy hands you would have had more time to examine in and see what it do,

Just like how we were able to figure out that the Citadel was a trap while living on there for thousands of years? Because that totally worked.

Apparently, the Reapers weren't afraid of letting us live on their greatest piece of technology, but once they can isolate each respective cycle and take them out systematically, they're secretly worried at Humanity's ability to defeat them mano y mano. Keep trying, mate.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

erezike wrote...

 Its always amusing to hear this burden of proof nonsesne.
No the burden isnt on me because you brought it up.

You brought up the Catalyst secretly creating some alterior motive. The burden is on you to provide us with where in the narrative that is established. You might want some more practice learning the Argument from Ignorance.

If you want to use this as evidence you have to make sure the evidence stick.
The levithans has assumptions. you are using the leviathans assumptions. which means you are assuming something that might as well be false.
If you want me to treat this as serious evidence you have to back it up with facts.
Otherwise it wont stick.

This does not follow. Vigil presents theories. And he presents them as theories. Shepard asks why do the Reapers hide out in dark space, he tells us it's possible that they need to conserve energy.

The Leviathans possess knowledge on the Catalyst, not to mention how it reached its conclusions. If that's now an "assumption", you're clearly desperate.

Also, rewatching Leviathan's ending, they establish that the Crucible has never once been completed. So much for your trap theory.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


I don't think you ever got this point.
1) This has been done an insufferabe amount of times -- what I choose to believe. And it's been screwed up alot too. Watch Ridley Scott's "Prometheus." Where they launch a 3 billion dollar exploration to find an alien race, where the lead sicentist has no proof of her belief at ALL, and did this because "it's what I choose to believe." I can choose to believe that it's going to rain chooclate tomorrow, but that probably won't happen. You need to have some backing that what you believe in is true before you bet anything and everything on it.
2) It means that a completely different race picked up the peices because the past cycle was completely wiped out. The female stargazer is NOT Liara, because this is 50,000 years later in the next cycle, and all that's left is Liara's recordings. It's just the same voice-actor. Not the same character.
3)  In the end, when Shepard is calling the Normandy to evac the injured squadmates, Harbinger does not kill Shepard because he sees Shepard as worthless. Shepard alone is nothing to them, and thus far, Shepard hasn't stopped them. They are here. They are killing. And based on the final ending choices, what did all those choices actually acomplish in the long run?

1) excactly my point, how would you know what shooting the tube or putting your hands on the rods would do? you have no idea, all you know is that your ruthless enemy wants you to do it. at least in refuse you can control what will happen.
2) its mean a different race is now dominant and talking to the little child. if the game told you. all humans died in the great reaper war then you would be correct. and even if that were the case it will still not means taking the starchild choices are more logical because you have to decide what is best at that given moment. cutscenes which show you all humans are dead(which isnt even in the game) is but one way things can turn out. which is why its so important to decided base on evidence given to you at the starchild-shepard standout.
3) Harbinger doesnt kill shepard since shepard is worthless? im sorry but this sounds to me a bit ridiculous. shepard has foiled three of the reapers plans so far. he is far from worthless which is why harbinger shows so much intrest in the first place. second- we dont know what was the capital ship next to the beam. Its like the alliance knows the capital ships by name now? shepard is not alone he still has the rest of the ressitance with him. he is the john conner of the reaper world. and he will keep fighting if only we let him.

1) No - you messed that part up.
That's a situation where there ISN'T any choice but to go off of what you have. I'm talking about your idea that the Reapers could ever be conventonally defeated.
In regards to the Catalyst, he has no reason to lie anymore -- Shepard is his "new variable." Lying will ruin the "final result." This is all just a grandose lab experiment to him -- he can't lie at this point because then he will never know what Shepard's true answer would have been. He wants Shepard to make an honest choice to validate the results of the Reapers actions and see if it was worth it or not. That's all he cares about - how the unknown variable will react in the final stage.
And Refuse offers the absolute least amount of control and dierection out of all the endings. (t's basically consenting defeat because you didn't have the stomach to do any of the other arbitrary choices. Yes, the choices suck, but the only consolation is that everyone lives at the end. That's Not the case with Refuse -- you have zero choice and zero chance.You can't do anything in that besides watch everything die. We knew from day one when Sovergein torched Eden Prime and tore through the Citadel Fleets that this was never going to be won conventionally. This is the only shot -- for better, or worse. There literally isn't a choice left here.

2) Again, No. Every single race died. The krogan, the turians, the asari -- All of them were harvested to make Destroyers (Codex reveals that all races not used to make a Sovergein-Class Reaper are used to make Destroyer-Class Reapers). They would be made into Destroyers.
And again, there is no longer any reason for the Catalyst to lie anymore. This is the conclusion of it's experiment -- it has to see how the final "Solution" plays out. It won't spoil the conclusion of it's own experiment with a lie. Not now.

3) Name me one time that Harbinger had the chance to kill Shepard place so openly to him, and yet didn't take it. Shepard was right in front of him. He could have killed Shepard. He did not. He did not see Shepard as anything more then "dust on the wind."  Also, you seem to be making a major misconception -- Shepard didn't do any of that alone. Hackett killed Sovergein -- Shepard stunned it. Shepard's team was escental to attacking the Collector Base - the Commander would have died had he/she tried it alone.
And in the end, what exactally did that "intrest" ammount to? Nothing. He didn't bother to capture Shepard once. And by the time of the Earth invasion, Shepard was no more a threat to Harbinger then the thousands of other soldiers he'd just now wiped out in front of the Conduit.
Also - YES. Shepard's debrief spicifically listed Harbinger's name, and details about his design and apperance from files taken from the Collector Base durning the attack on it at the end of ME2. So - yes, the Alliance does know it's Harbinger. Anderson even says his name, and that Alliance intel I.D'd him coming down to Earth. There isn't a single soldier fighting the Reapers that doesn't know what Harbinger looks like or who he is at this point.
Shepard looks pretty damn alone on the Citadel with the Catalyst. And Refuse pretty conclusively proves that if we "let him," all we get is an instant loss. There are some battles that just can't be won on faith alone, you know. Call me fatalistic, but having had family that fought in WWII, I pretty much grew up around the fact that belief only carries someone so far.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


But the actual life-span of an asari is 1,000 years. The Reapers don't return until another 50,000 years after the Refuse ending. Liara would be long dead, if not harvested to create a Destroyer with.
Also, this is never factually stated, and the time capsules themselves fit the definition of "continuity of civilization." It's making sure that there will be future civilizations. Not preservation of the old one. Besides, the female stargazer explisitly says that all of the past cycle was dead, and speaks of them in past-tense. None of them survived.
Also, I remind you that the protheans had a heads-up that the Reapers were coming and actually acted on it. This cycle did not. So, based on that, how exactally do you figure that stasis pods of any kind would be built and operational by that point? They would have had to been built during the invasion -- where everything was being thrown into the Crucible. No resoruce could afford to not be used in the construction of the Crucible. Had that not been the case.... but it was, and it makes deviation of resources to create stasis pods absolutly impossible. Especally since the current cycle never bothered to research such tech in depth. The protheans had at least a decade. We would have had only a few years, since Ilos is prohibited from being studied since it's a historical site now, quarantined to prevent access to the Conduit. I'm sorry, but that female stargazer is not an asari -- it's just a female.

Can anyone really say that what we got pre-EC was any better then the original Dark Energy idea? The Reapers are still all but invincible, and they still have the "sudden anti-hero" motif going, except personified in the Catalyst instead of Harbinger. And we Still get a choice between letting them continue, and destroying them in the hopes that we can fumble along without their technology and prevent the "conflict" they were "preventing." It's a different presentation, but I daresay it's the same damn baseline formula. Just with two extra versions (direct them yourself, or help them force all life down their ideal path).

Well, I found that Dragon Age: Origins was pretty damn good. Which was why I was so shocked at how Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 turned out.

asari can make blue babies with everyone. all the last cycles before shepard cycles were dead. did this cycle not have headsup or acted on it? it did a lot more than the protheans.the council knew about the reapers for 30 years since shanxi and the meta turians. 
 the female stargazer could be anything, how far did the human race evolved in the last 20,000 years?>
who know how they will evolve in the future.

You have to face it, there is no one truth to this. after refuse anything could have happened.

Trying to analayse cutscenes which confrims or prove nothing will get you no where.
All you can do is hope to reach the best decision from the shepard- catalyst standdown.
its comes down to those three questions
 1) do you trust the catalyst
2) do you see no alternatives to defeating the reapers
3) is submission better than extinction
if you answered yes to even one of these 3 questions. you will never understand the logic behind refuse and there will be no help to you

3) Saying yes to 3, despite saying no to 1+2 support synthesis.

If every single cycle before now never managed to survive, what makes you think the Asari are going to? They will be harvested just like every other race.
LOL, what??? This cycle did NOTHING with it's warrning. No one even believed in the Reapers until they could physically see them.
Also, go to the Wiki. The protheans did have a heads up, and spent roughly a decade acting on it the moment they got it. They built up defenses, they excivated the Crucible and begain working on it's design. Hell, half the reason they started their empire was because they discovered mention of the Reapers in the ruins of past races. They did ten times more with their heads-up then this cycle did. Javik says so himself.  And where did it get the protheans? Dead. Gone. Ended. It made no difference what-so-ever. Also, hate to break this to you, but Saren and the turian government classified the meta-turian incident. No one knows what happened that day or why, and no proof exists because the Arca Monolith was destroyed by Saren's bombardment. Saren is the only one that knew what happened that day, and he took that secret to his grave because he knew that the Council would never believe him without proof.

Once Again -- if every single race before this in the last several billion years died, how the hell do you assume that this cycle will be any different? The female stargazer spicifcally says that they all died, and that their sacrifice ensured that this cycle (as in, a completely seperate cycle with differnet races altogether) used their information to end the Reapers themselves.

You are the one that has to face reality here -- the past cycle is dead in Refuse. Nothing survives. Just empty ruins.

You contunue to ignore what's in them, though. As you do the fact that the Catalyst has no reason left to lie. This is his ultimate experiment. Shepard can decide the final phase of that result -- lying will "spoil the variable." The entire point of leaving eveything to an unproven variable is in not influencing it's ultimate choice. You give it options and let it pick one. Forcing it into one spicifically "ruins the outcome." The Catalyst's curioisity has gotten the better of it -- it has to see what the variable that defeated it's solution would pick. It will never get this chance again, so it cannot let it be "spoiled" by lying.
1) Trust has nothing to do with it -- there is no reason for it to lie, and the Reapers have so much collecive power that it's not even neccessary to lie. Not anymore.
2) Only other alternitive is to let everyone die. That's not much of an alternitive, now is it?
3) If anything, the Catalyst is the one submitting to you. It's willing to accept whatever choice you pick -- even destroying it. Remember, the Catalyst can shut down the link between the Citadel and Crucible if it wants to -- we see it shut off the beam in the Refuse ending. He's submitting to whatever choice you pick out of the three.

You are the one that doesn't understand logic in general. Faith and idealism can only get one so far.

[KaiserShep]

If the reapers/catalyst intended to lie, they sure wasted a lot of time and words to do so. This argument is ridiculous and is clearly coming to an impasse.

[silverexile17s]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

Dont be naive... the reapers and the catalyst were playing you all along.

And dont even get me started about finding the crucible in the first place, and allowing the galaxy to build it.
(which i did to an extended period earlier)

This all thing smells like a set up. which is why destroy and control make no sense, no matter how tempting they sound. a reaper off button makes no sense. especially when it was given to you by the reapers.

I have a theory. It's called the: "If the Crucible was a trap, the Reapers should have let us keep the Citadel" theory. 
It's crazy, I know, but I suspect that it makes ten times more sense than the Reapers wanting us to activate the Citadel and so making that nearly impossible...by preventing us from activating the Crucible, not to mention straight out attacking it.

Oh and just to demonstrate (again) how idiotic your point is: if the Reapers want us to be activating the Crucible each cycle, it's probably not a good idea to take control of the Citadel each time and close off the relays, therefore preventing us from activating the Crucible period.

Not to mention that if this was true, then what the hell was the point of Sovergein attacking the Citadel in ME1? We know from Vigil's testiment that the Reapers always used the Citadel Realy - activated by a "vanguard" left behind after every harvest - as their first stroke in an attack. The Crucible does not fit anywhere in that history.

[KaiserShep]

It really doesn't. I'll also maintain that giving organics plans to build a device of their own design to incorporate into the citadel COMPLETELY undermines the purpose of the keepers, which allow the technology to function with little to no interference from organics.

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...

We dont know the reasons it killed the levithans, all we have are the leviathans assumptions.

Okay, so, what would need to happen - what would the game need to do - to show you that the Catalyst is still following the mandate with which he was programmed? What would need to happen for you to admit that the Catalyst is still trying to prevent synthetics from wiping out all organics?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 juillet 2013 - 03:13 .

[The Night Mammoth]

silverexile17s wrote...

If every single cycle before now never managed to survive, what makes you think the Asari are going to? They will be harvested just like every other race.
LOL, what??? This cycle did NOTHING with it's warrning. No one even believed in the Reapers until they could physically see them.
Also, go to the Wiki. The protheans did have a heads up, and spent roughly a decade acting on it the moment they got it. They built up defenses, they excivated the Crucible and begain working on it's design. Hell, half the reason they started their empire was because they discovered mention of the Reapers in the ruins of past races. They did ten times more with their heads-up then this cycle did. Javik says so himself.  

What? When the hell is anything like this ever said? I've played this game a dozen times and spent more than a year on this forum and this is literally the first time I've ever heard of the protheans having advanced warning of the Reapers and acting on it.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 juillet 2013 - 03:25 .

[CronoDragoon]

The Protheans did indeed have advanced warning, but I don't remember any of that other more specific information. Though I suppose it's possible to infer it.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 juillet 2013 - 03:29 .

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

If the reapers left the citadel in the galaxy hands you would have had more time to examine in and see what it do,

Just like how we were able to figure out that the Citadel was a trap while living on there for thousands of years? Because that totally worked.

Apparently, the Reapers weren't afraid of letting us live on their greatest piece of technology, but once they can isolate each respective cycle and take them out systematically, they're secretly worried at Humanity's ability to defeat them mano y mano. Keep trying, mate.

Just like you werent able to realize how  craete the thanix canons, implant reaper tech, create edi, create anf AI.

Just like a team of 12 protheans never figured out how to create a mass relay into the citdadel from iillos, modifiy the reapers and close the portal to dark space.?

Oh wait they did all that:wizard:

[Erez Kristal]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

erezike wrote...

 Its always amusing to hear this burden of proof nonsesne.
No the burden isnt on me because you brought it up.

You brought up the Catalyst secretly creating some alterior motive. The burden is on you to provide us with where in the narrative that is established. You might want some more practice learning the Argument from Ignorance.

If you want to use this as evidence you have to make sure the evidence stick.
The levithans has assumptions. you are using the leviathans assumptions. which means you are assuming something that might as well be false.
If you want me to treat this as serious evidence you have to back it up with facts.
Otherwise it wont stick.

This does not follow. Vigil presents theories. And he presents them as theories. Shepard asks why do the Reapers hide out in dark space, he tells us it's possible that they need to conserve energy.

The Leviathans possess knowledge on the Catalyst, not to mention how it reached its conclusions. If that's now an "assumption", you're clearly desperate.

Also, rewatching Leviathan's ending, they establish that the Crucible has never once been completed. So much for your trap theory.

I am talking about shepard lack of information regarding the reapers, all that shepard knows is that the reapers are wiping outall galactic life. Thats a fact.
all you have is assumpions. No my friend.

If you want to debunk my resolutions by only using assumpions you heard someone else is making then we will get no where.
Unless you can produce hard facts to support your arguments then we have nothing further to disscuss.

Another note on the leviathan. i assume that a bunch of cuttle fish living underwater have unlimited knowledgge from watching the television all day right?

Modifié par erezike, 25 juillet 2013 - 05:11 .

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

If the reapers/catalyst intended to lie, they sure wasted a lot of time and words to do so. This argument is ridiculous and is clearly coming to an impasse.

Sorry. Must have been my bad. i thought enemies who tide to wipe out your entire race using indoctrination, traps. and tend to turn your forces one against the other lie from time to time.

But i guess that was just me!

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...


1) No - you messed that part up.
That's a situation where there ISN'T any choice but to go off of what you have. I'm talking about your idea that the Reapers could ever be conventonally defeated.
In regards to the Catalyst, he has no reason to lie anymore -- Shepard is his "new variable." Lying will ruin the "final result." This is all just a grandose lab experiment to him -- he can't lie at this point because then he will never know what Shepard's true answer would have been. He wants Shepard to make an honest choice to validate the results of the Reapers actions and see if it was worth it or not. That's all he cares about - how the unknown variable will react in the final stage.
And Refuse offers the absolute least amount of control and dierection out of all the endings. (t's basically consenting defeat because you didn't have the stomach to do any of the other arbitrary choices. Yes, the choices suck, but the only consolation is that everyone lives at the end. That's Not the case with Refuse -- you have zero choice and zero chance.You can't do anything in that besides watch everything die. We knew from day one when Sovergein torched Eden Prime and tore through the Citadel Fleets that this was never going to be won conventionally. This is the only shot -- for better, or worse. There literally isn't a choice left here.

2) Again, No. Every single race died. The krogan, the turians, the asari -- All of them were harvested to make Destroyers (Codex reveals that all races not used to make a Sovergein-Class Reaper are used to make Destroyer-Class Reapers). They would be made into Destroyers.
And again, there is no longer any reason for the Catalyst to lie anymore. This is the conclusion of it's experiment -- it has to see how the final "Solution" plays out. It won't spoil the conclusion of it's own experiment with a lie. Not now.

3) Name me one time that Harbinger had the chance to kill Shepard place so openly to him, and yet didn't take it. Shepard was right in front of him. He could have killed Shepard. He did not. He did not see Shepard as anything more then "dust on the wind."  Also, you seem to be making a major misconception -- Shepard didn't do any of that alone. Hackett killed Sovergein -- Shepard stunned it. Shepard's team was escental to attacking the Collector Base - the Commander would have died had he/she tried it alone.
And in the end, what exactally did that "intrest" ammount to? Nothing. He didn't bother to capture Shepard once. And by the time of the Earth invasion, Shepard was no more a threat to Harbinger then the thousands of other soldiers he'd just now wiped out in front of the Conduit.
Also - YES. Shepard's debrief spicifically listed Harbinger's name, and details about his design and apperance from files taken from the Collector Base durning the attack on it at the end of ME2. So - yes, the Alliance does know it's Harbinger. Anderson even says his name, and that Alliance intel I.D'd him coming down to Earth. There isn't a single soldier fighting the Reapers that doesn't know what Harbinger looks like or who he is at this point.
Shepard looks pretty damn alone on the Citadel with the Catalyst. And Refuse pretty conclusively proves that if we "let him," all we get is an instant loss. There are some battles that just can't be won on faith alone, you know. Call me fatalistic, but having had family that fought in WWII, I pretty much grew up around the fact that belief only carries someone so far.

1) how about a quicker victory? thats a good reason to lie no? 2)
how do you know that everu race die? did you play the game 20,000 years into the future. or watching liara vids made in 2187 is worth into knowing what happened in 3187 long after she died.

3) Arrival, Run to the beam and when shepad walks up to it and harbinger takes a hike(care to explain that hike)  (shepard had a list of reaper files... where did we learn this, i)

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...

erezike wrote...

We dont know the reasons it killed the levithans, all we have are the leviathans assumptions.

Okay, so, what would need to happen - what would the game need to do - to show you that the Catalyst is still following the mandate with which he was programmed? What would need to happen for you to admit that the Catalyst is still trying to prevent synthetics from wiping out all organics?

How about some real evidence for a change?
coming from an honest knowable source.


All i been hearing so far was wild speculations trying to badly mask themselves as facts. 
 

[KaiserShep]

erezike wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

If the reapers/catalyst intended to lie, they sure wasted a lot of time and words to do so. This argument is ridiculous and is clearly coming to an impasse.

Sorry. Must have been my bad. i thought enemies who tide to wipe out your entire race using indoctrination, traps. and tend to turn your forces one against the other lie from time to time.

But i guess that was just me!

I guess Sovereign was the reapers' patsy, a buffoon left behind because they just didn't want him to join their party in dark space. No doubt they had a good laugh about how this idiot ran a suicide run into the Citadel, despite their best laid plans saved for later.

erezike wrote...
 How about some real evidence for a change?
coming from an honest knowable source.


All i been hearing so far was wild speculations trying to badly mask themselves as facts. 

Unfortunately, such a character can't exist here, as there's no magical apparition that dispassionately observes all of these events from the sidelines for eons just to drop by and give the grand-info dump to the protagonist. The one and only character that can truly know all of these events is the one that drove these events forward in the first place, since it's the only one left standing after it all.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 juillet 2013 - 05:29 .

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

erezike wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

If the reapers/catalyst intended to lie, they sure wasted a lot of time and words to do so. This argument is ridiculous and is clearly coming to an impasse.

Sorry. Must have been my bad. i thought enemies who tide to wipe out your entire race using indoctrination, traps. and tend to turn your forces one against the other lie from time to time.

But i guess that was just me!

I guess Sovereign was the reapers' patsy, a buffoon left behind because they just didn't want him to join their party in dark space. No doubt they had a good laugh about how this idiot ran a suicide run into the Citadel, despite their best laid plans saved for later.

erezike wrote...
 How about some real evidence for a change?
coming from an honest knowable source.


All i been hearing so far was wild speculations trying to badly mask themselves as facts. 

Unfortunately, such a character can't exist here, as there's no magical apparition that dispassionately observes all of these events from the sidelines for eons just to drop by and give the grand-info dump to the protagonist. The one and only character that can truly know all of these events is the one that drove these events forward in the first place, since it's the only one left standing after it all.

exactly,no solid information to support you claims. no character exist to tell us relly what was going on,. so the best thing we can do is act based upon what we really know.

Sovereign may see like a bad plan to those who he think the reapers have unlimited energy. but to those who think they have limited amounts of energy. this plan makes sense.

i suppose you belong to the club which think the reapers have unlimited amount of energy which is why would turn me1 plot completly obsolete

[KaiserShep]

The concept of unlimited energy is preposterous, even in the MEU, so I don't entertain this concept. I'm curious as to how this is related to whether or not its run on the Citadel is a good plan depending on whether the Crucible is possibly a reaper trap laid in waiting.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 juillet 2013 - 05:48 .