748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

Sinnerj117 wrote...

In my opinion, Synthesis is the most flawed. You're talking about subjecting an entire galaxy to a change that they never asked for. It seems deceitful.

That said, there is no way the galaxy can shake hands with the Reapers after all that they've done. No matter how helpful they may be in the Control scenario, they are still alive. The line of trust with these new "allies" would be very thin.

Destroy is always my choice as it is what Shepard sets out to do since the first game. During the course of all three games, you seek destroy the Reapers and the threat they pose to future generations. This ensures peace from the cycle of slaughter that so many others have suffered through.

I agree destroy is the best, but why would shooting the tube trigger the reapers death switch in the first place??

More information on this subject was in another thread

http://social.biowar...ndex/15345004/2

[Sinnerj117]

erezike wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

In my opinion, Synthesis is the most flawed. You're talking about subjecting an entire galaxy to a change that they never asked for. It seems deceitful.

That said, there is no way the galaxy can shake hands with the Reapers after all that they've done. No matter how helpful they may be in the Control scenario, they are still alive. The line of trust with these new "allies" would be very thin.

Destroy is always my choice as it is what Shepard sets out to do since the first game. During the course of all three games, you seek destroy the Reapers and the threat they pose to future generations. This ensures peace from the cycle of slaughter that so many others have suffered through.

I agree destroy is the best, but why would shooting the tube trigger the reapers death switch in the first place??

More information on this subject was in another thread

http://social.biowar...ndex/15345004/2

I see your point. I always theorized that destroying the "tube" caused an overload of the Citadel's systems. This, in turn, caused something of an EMP shockwave that was given direction by the presence of the Crucible. This would disable all Artificial Intelligences. The Crucible helped the blast distinguish Intelligence from major power systems vital to the continued operations of any and all ships caught in the shockwave.

This is just a theory, but makes the most sense to me.

[Erez Kristal]

[quote]Sinnerj117 wrote...

I agree destroy is the best, but why would shooting the tube trigger the reapers death switch in the first place??

More information on this subject was in another thread

http://social.biowar...ndex/15345004/2

[/quote]I see your point. I always theorized that destroying the "tube" caused an overload of the Citadel's systems. This, in turn, caused something of an EMP shockwave that was given direction by the presence of the Crucible. This would disable all Artificial Intelligences. The Crucible helped the blast distinguish Intelligence from major power systems vital to the continued operations of any and all ships caught in the shockwave.

This is just a theory, but makes the most sense to me.



[/quote] That theory is better than most, but its still pretty risky. considering the bizzare circumstances which preceded the catalyst-shepard conversation.
Shepard doesnt really know anything about how the crucibile function when he gets to that chamber.
The crucibile isnt a simple computer.

Modifié par erezike, 25 juillet 2013 - 09:45 .

[Sinnerj117]

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

Modifié par Sinnerj117, 25 juillet 2013 - 09:49 .

[Ymladdych]

erezike wrote...
But how do you know that shooting the tube will turn on the reapers kill switch?

You must've skipped paragraph 3 of my post:

In fact, I don't think The Catalyst *was* lying; it just thought it was
irrefutably *right* in its conclusions, and it was doing whatever
necessary to make Shepard believe its "truths."

A lot of people (on both sides of the argument) conflate the possibility of Shepard's indoctrination with The Catalyst's veracity - I'm not one of them.

[Erez Kristal]

I didnt skip it, i was curious as to what in game information you refered when you made the decision to shoot the tube.

[Erez Kristal]

Sinnerj117 wrote...

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

i like your direction direction of thinking, assuming shepard had access to the crucible plans and there for further insight on how it works make sense when deciding to shoot the tube. and is within character.

[Sinnerj117]

erezike wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

i like your direction direction of thinking, assuming shepard had access to the crucible plans and there for further insight on how it works make sense when deciding to shoot the tube. and is within character.

Indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[silverexile17s]

Sinnerj117 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

i like your direction direction of thinking, assuming shepard had access to the crucible plans and there for further insight on how it works make sense when deciding to shoot the tube. and is within character.

Indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry, but that's dead wrong -- As I said, the Catalyst has zero reason to lie anymore.

[Ymladdych]

AlanC9 wrote...
Note that the Catalyst is extraordinarily bad at psychological manipulation. Which is OK; he's not supposed to understand organics all that well. Having Indoctrination means that if an organic's psychology isn't working the way you need it to you just change the psychology rather than deal with it.

Yeah, I suspect any manipulation would be based on algorithms developed from observation over time, so there would be "misses" due to lack of true understanding/empathy.

However, based on Javik and Vendetta's information about previous cycles, in addition to Saren and TIM's arcs - two things have remained consistent that The Catalyst could bank on - 1. organics' fear of annihilation and 2. the lure of Reaper tech. The bulk of its case against "Destroy" is based on these two appeals to emotion, punctuated by its chosen form - the kid, avatar of all the people Shepard failed to save despite his best efforts.

As for the "changing psychology" part - even with a connection to Shepard's mind, its EM emitter was dead (TIM), and Shepard wasn't implanted, so the link wouldn't be strong enough for it to assume control or override Shepard's thought patterns.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...


Sorry, but that's dead wrong -- As I said, the Catalyst has zero reason to lie anymore.

Which make it a fact, please forgive me for not comprehending it sooner.

Modifié par erezike, 25 juillet 2013 - 10:55 .

[Sinnerj117]

silverexile17s wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

i like your direction direction of thinking, assuming shepard had access to the crucible plans and there for further insight on how it works make sense when deciding to shoot the tube. and is within character.

Indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry, but that's dead wrong -- As I said, the Catalyst has zero reason to lie anymore.

This wasn't about the Catalyst lying to anyone. I never brought that up. If Shepard had a copy of the Crucible plans, (thanks to Liara, he/ she did) he/she would have had a better understanding of how the Crucible worked. The only unknown was the Catalyst. In no way did I say the Catalyst had any reason to lie to Shepard. That's not even what we were talking about.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1) You think the Catalyst cares what spicific time he gets his victory???



2) Um... because she said so?? She said that they finshed the fight that the last cycle left unfinsihed. And Look at the past cycles. How many races besides the Leviathans (likely finally harvested since they threw their lot in this time as well) survived the cycles? None of them. Not one race ever survived the cycles. What makes you think any would now??
Also, it's 50,000 years. Every cycle is 50,000 years. Not 20,000.

3) How about "Shepard is a walking corpse and no longer any form of threat"? I mean, does Shepard look all that threatening after being roasted by Harbinger's beam?? Does it look like it would take more then a puff of air to knock the Commander over? Hell, if not for the Catalyst, Shepard would have passed out and bleed out next to the bodies of Anderson and the Illusive Man (major irony). I mean, Harbinger stopped Shepard cold with one beam. Shepard was no threat to Harbinger -- I mean, what can you do at that point, bleed on Harbinger?

Also - End of ME2. When Shepard visits the cargo bay where the squad is patching up the Normandy after the Suicide Mission, Joker hands Shepard a datapad containing detailed specs of Harbinger -- information that could only have come from the Collector Base. After all, there were many computers on that base that could be accessed. Perhaps by one of the squadmates during the many times the team split up during the mission.

the reapers took casualties in the war, thats a fact. the reapers had a few foiled plans so far. thats a fact. the reapers look for efficent ways to work. you can say that they wouldnt want to hurry up. but judging from their actions. they dont seem to be taking their time with thing either. so yes i think the catalyst greatly care at what time it gets its victory.
2) She said so in 2187.
it could also be that liara didnt live to see that cycle ends, or this wass but the first recording out of many when things look truly desperate. either way, there is not telling what really happens. and even if there were it was irrelevant to the decision making.
3) shepard is injured, give him a few days and he just like new. as long as shepard is alive hes a threat. saying otherwise is fallacy. 
The capital ship which leaves the beam guard duty makes no sense unless the reapers wanted shepard to enter the beam.

1) Wow... you really have absolutly nothing but blind idealisim, don't you?
The losses the Reapers took are nothing compaired to the rest of the galaxy. That's also a fact. The news reports on the Citadel tell of constant losses, and that by the end of the game, the Reapers have taken nearly every star cluster in the entire galaxy, save a few spots in the Terminus Systems. Even Palaven has fallen completely now -- the turians able to do nothing but stall for the Crucible. Garrus himself says that even with the krogan, the Reapers are mearly being slowed, not stopped. Hackett himself says that the entire war is nothing but a stalling effort. They're betting everything on the Crucible. There is no great reserve left - no backups, no extra fleets. What you see is what you get at Earth. There is nothing left. This is literally the last shot. Nothing else remains. Nothing else.
Also, that is again proven wrong by how the Reapers took their time in harvesting worlds instead of just obliterating them. Time is not a factor in their equasions. They believe that time is in abundance to them -- efficancy and the best cource of action is what they care about. Organics are the ones limited by time factors. The Reapers have no such limitations at all. So again, No - The Catalyst has absolutly zero care whatsoever about what time he gets his victory. If you're going to win anyway, why bother rushing it? That's the Catalyst's view on the war.

2) That Stargazer scene was from the next cycle. Which cronologically takes place 50,000 years after the Refuse ending. Where the hell are getting "2187" from? That's when the Reaper War started. Not the date of the next cycle!
And again, all resources are deveoted to stopping the Reapers -- they aren't bothering with anything like cryo-hybernation, because that takes away resources from fighting the Reapers.
And thus far, your entire argumenet was that this cycle supposedly survived the Reaper attack, saying that "we can't know." Yet when I present proof that the cycle gets completely wiped out in Refuse ending, you say it doesn't matter??

3) Ha, ha, ha ... No. Shepard is on the verge of death. Bleeding out and barely able to stand. One single maruder has the potential to stop Shepard dead. And did you even listen to the "definition of insanity" bit from a while ago? Doing the same thing over and over expecting it to be different this time? Harbinger wasted Shepard once -- why would it be any different Next time? And where the hell are you even getting the idea that there would be a next time? This is the final attack -- if you go down now, you aren't getting another shot. Game over. Harbinger proved with one shot that Shepard was nothing to him -- How many times did Harbinger say during ME2 that Shepard was dust on cosmic wind -- that Shepard was absolutly nothing against them, and would fall no matter what? That Shepard's struggle was worthless and the Commander nothing to them?
How many more times must Harbinger himself say he sees Shepard as worthless before it hits you that he sees Shepard as worthless? He brushed Shepard off like a fly.
Um ... did you miss the part where even the Alliance believed that everyone was dead? Major Coats said that everyone was dead. Likely, Harbinger thought that if Shepard wasn't dead then the Commander was to injured to be any form of danger to them. After all, how many soldiers that rushed the beam actually made it there?

[silverexile17s]

Sinnerj117 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Sinnerj117 wrote...

Agreed. It is by no means simple. I would like to point out that Shepard had already been informed by Admiral Hackett that the Crucible engineers had come to a general consensus about how it would "fire off" its energy. He/she didn't go into the Citadel completely blind.

It does make you wonder though. I rather enjoy reading other's opinions and theories.

i like your direction direction of thinking, assuming shepard had access to the crucible plans and there for further insight on how it works make sense when deciding to shoot the tube. and is within character.

Indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry, but that's dead wrong -- As I said, the Catalyst has zero reason to lie anymore.

This wasn't about the Catalyst lying to anyone. I never brought that up. If Shepard had a copy of the Crucible plans, (thanks to Liara, he/ she did) he/she would have had a better understanding of how the Crucible worked. The only unknown was the Catalyst. In no way did I say the Catalyst had any reason to lie to Shepard. That's not even what we were talking about.

The Catalyst knows how the thing works, and has no reason to lie. Therefore, he's the source of information on how to work the thing.
And if the galaxy's best scientists couldn't figure out how to run it, what the hell makes you think Shepard would? So Shepard having copys of the plans are irrlivent anyway. Besides, what do you think the display in the war room is? Those are complete technical readouts of the Crucible. Which don't mean a damn to Shepard since the tech is way above the Commander's head.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 juillet 2013 - 10:59 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

The Catalyst knows how the thing works, and has no reason to lie. Therefore, he's the source of information on how to work the thing.
 Shepard having copys of the plans are irrlivent anyway. Those are complete technical readouts of the Crucible. Which don't mean a damn to Shepard since the tech is way above the Commander's head.

  

There is a big gap between facts and opinions.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

Master blaster you missed my point.
My question was, why do you think shooting the tube will trigger the reapers kills switch?

Because the Catalyst has nothing to hide anymore. He's going to win no matter what - why lie now? He sees this all as a grandiose experiment. All the work he's put into this venture? It's not really important to him -- he doesn't care about the task itself. He just wants to see what the result is -- his curiousity drives him at this point. He wants to know if the indipendant varible that did the impossible (break his Solution) will agree with his path (Synthesis), direct it themself (Control), or wipe it away for a fresh start (Destroy). You seem to think that the  Catalyst cares about the effort that this took. He doesn't. He just sees this as another task to fulfill -- and wants to see if their indpendent variable will go the same way. Lying will "spoil the result."

THAT'S why he trusts shooting the tube will kill the Reapers -- because the Catalyst has no reason to lie anymore. This is the endgame -- his Solution is flawed, so he'd have to choose a new path. He's letting Shepard decide if they should, or if they should end it now. He's curious to how Shepard will end or continue the experiment.

since you answered yes to the question
to two of the three questions
1) is the catalyst speaking the truth
2) do you see no alternatives

you will never understand refuse.
you in your mind have already given up.
You went from the reapers are my enemies to.
the reapers arent that bad, they were just idiots who didnt know better.  so instead of looking at the facts, you tailor a story that will support your thesis.

You dont know what the catalyst really care about because you arent the catalyst
you can only judge the facts. and the facts are.
the beam was open, there were very few reaper ground forces guarding the beam and none on the citadel.
Harbinger left the beam for no reason. the catalyst elvated you to the crucible chamber and also told you your choices while telling his mooks to murder your friends as you were debating. What a pal!

All your statements are wrong on one level or another. Let me point out all the flaws:
1) Name me one time ANY Reaper actually straight-up lied to us. Sovergein and Harbinger were baltently, almost arrogantly honest -- fueled by the belief that nothing we do will ever harm them. Has that changed? Not from what I can see.
So again, while manipulitive, I've never seen any Reaper actually make a direct lie in a conversation with Shepard.
Also, I remind you that you have not presented a single valid reason why the Catalyst would lie at this junction. It's not about time - he's got all the time in the universe because the organics are vastly outnumbers. It's not fear of loss - same reason as above. All he cares about is if the experiment will end, or be compleated, or be put under new management. He doesn't have the level of attachment an organic would to it's purpose. He just wants it done, and is curious to how Shepard will react.
2) You haven't presented one single valid alternitive at all. As I said, we knew from day one that this would never be won conventionally. Your surprised that actually ended up being the case, when we were told at every juncture from the first game onward that this is what would happen -- victory through alternitive means, and not conventional fighting?

- You got that mixed up -- you are the one that doesn't understand Refuse. It's not about any form of "hope." It's about preserving one's sense of self. Sometimes to your detriment. It's about one person not having such ultimate power. You are the one that completely and utterly misinterperted what Refuse was.
- I'm being realistic. We knew right from the get-go that we could never, ever beat the Reapers conventionally. It took the entire Alliance fleet just to stop Sovergein alone. And I'm not going to let the entire damn galaxy crash and burn just because of perosnal morals. My two choices tend to be Destroy first, Control second.  Refuse and Synthesis are my polar opposates -- Synthesis is what the Reapers would do anyway. Refuse is giving up because I couldn't take that final shot.
- The Reapers are my enemies, which is why Refuse and Synthesis are completely and utterly unacceptible in my eyes. Synthesis is consenting to the Reapers ultimate agenda. Refuse is giving up and letting everything you fought for die because your morals were more important then the galaxy - I learned from Javik about that.
"Stand in the ashes of a trillon dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer."
My hate of the Reapers actions is why I don't support Refuse and Synthesis. You are the one that isn't looking at facts, and is tailoring the story to fit what you believe. No matter what you say, Refuse is a futile gesture at this point. This was something we saw coming from a long way off - the fact that the Reapers are damned overwhelming. The ace in the hole was the Crucible. Since most of the galaxy's resources were spent on the thing, there's no longer any option left.

I know what it cares about because I spoke to it's damned creators. They told me what it cares about, and what it doesn't. They told me personally that this entire thing with the cycles was nothing but a giant tabletop experiment to it. It cares about "preserving" organics, not dominating them in a war game. It has no attachment.

You mean everything you haven't done with the facts?
The beam was open because they were transporting humans up to the Citadel to be harvested. And what makes you believe the Reapers saw ANY threat in the allied forces? After all, only tow badly injured people actually made it onto the station. And there is the Reaper-augmented TIM waiting for them. What do you think they had to worry about?
LoL, what?? There was an entire army of forces that blocked the beam, Banshees, brutes, harvesters, even a Destroyer. Did you miss the many, many Hades Cannon- Destrroyers surrounding the Conduit? Did you miss the slog through Reaper-infested territory to get to the field where the beam was?
Again, wrong -- Harbinger left the beam because everyone was dead or dying. Anyone still alive was on the verge of death. There was nothing of any real threat left standing -- that's why Harbinger left. There wasn't any real threat remaining.
This is what the Catalyst has been waiting for. All this time, the Catalyst's actions of delayed "the conflict" instead of actually solving it. Shepard's actions provide the indipendant variable needed to "complete the solution." He can reroute the Citadel to make the choices possible, but being incorporial, he lacks the tools needed for the manual override needed to activate the Crucible. That's where Shepard comes in. The Catalyst wants to see how the result of the Cycles will be? Will it be completed? Will it be placed under new management? Will it be ended in favor of a new path? He's curious to see just how the emotional responce factor (Shepard) will react. The Catalyst didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

I remind you that the geth did the same exact thing to the quarians, and vice versa in the "kill your friends while you make a choice" department.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The Catalyst knows how the thing works, and has no reason to lie. Therefore, he's the source of information on how to work the thing.
 Shepard having copys of the plans are irrlivent anyway. Those are complete technical readouts of the Crucible. Which don't mean a damn to Shepard since the tech is way above the Commander's head.

  

There is a big gap between facts and opinions.

Which you have provided none of. Remember? You haven't provided one single valid fact in any of your statements.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

Which you have provided none of. Remember? You haven't provided one single valid fact in any of your statements.

The events i stated that happens after shepard is hit by the capital ship are all facts.
aswell as the reapers killing all galactic life, which is also an in game fact.
you dont seem to be grasping how lying works in life, a person doesnt need to lie to you before in order to lie to you later. he can just lie whenever he wants.
more so in the case of the reapers since its an in game fact the reapers use indoctrination and manipulation in order to achieve their goals, in other terms lying.

There is nothing to support the thesis that the catalyst is speaking the truth. 
The assumption that the crucibile changed him, is only an assumption. the reapers are still killing and harvesting.

these are facts.
Not opinions, facts.

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.


As for refuse working or not, well there isnt much for me to explain for you here. you are 100% certain that no matter what the galaxy does its already lost to the reapers, i think otherwise. but since this is open for interpretation we will leave it at that.
A good example for this is when an obvious underdog beats a much stronger opponent. our history is filled with people who badly underestimated their foes.

Modifié par erezike, 25 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Ymladdych]

erezike wrote...
I didnt skip it, i was curious as to what in game information you refered when you made the decision to shoot the tube.

Ah, I see. Here's a nutshell compilation of my non-meta, in-game rationale. (None of these assert that The Catalyst is lying, BTW - merely that his POV is skewed in a direction I find questionable.)

"Overlord" shows a human calculator with an innate ability to think in machine language losing his mind by merging with about 200 Geth. Legion says that one Reaper "mind" was overwhelming even to him, so why would I be willing to assume that Shepard's mind would withstand merging into the entire Reaper collective in "Control?" My answer: I wouldn't make that assumption, and The Catalyst doesn't have any kind of precedent to know that it wouldn't backfire in a similar manner to "Overlord." It just says, "Yup, it'll work - you'll have control."

With regard to "Synthesis," in ME2 Legion tells Shepard that applying organic value systems to the Geth is not only shortsighted, but racist. I agreed with that sentiment then, so why would I change my mind just because the roles are reversed? My answer: I wouldn't change my mind - tolerance goes both ways.

Also in regard to "Synthesis," The Catalyst plainly suffers from "garbage in, garbage out" because some idiot Leviathan coder forgot that computers are literal, lacking in any value systems that aren't hardcoded into them. (That's how "preserve life at all costs" translated into Reaperfication in the first place. To The Catalyst, life was information. DNA, culture, and tech. Nothing more, nothing less.) 

So...why on earth would I trust an established "garbage in, garbage out" AI to pick a "perfect" solution for all life, especially when that solution involves full integration into its own Reaper framework? Answer: I wouldn't trust an established "garbage in, garbage out" AI to decide what was (or wasn't) "perfection" for something it admittedly doesn't understand - organic life.

This last concern is exacerbated by The Catalyst's admission that it's tried a "Synthesis"-type solution in the past, but it failed. (The Catalyst thinks it has it right *this* time, though! The galaxy is willing!) <-- Except that I never saw any evidence that the galaxy was willing to merge with the Reapers, even on a symbolic level. If The Crucible is an implicit consent for "Synthesis," then it would also mean that the Geth gave implict consent for "Destroy," since they worked on the project.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 26 juillet 2013 - 12:48 .

[AlanC9]

erezike wrote...

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.

Your writing is sometimes a bit sloppy, which is probably what leads to this confusion. You have a bad habit  of speaking of the hypothesis of the Catalyst lying as a proven fact, instead of speaking of it as a possibility.

[silverexile17s]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.

Your writing is sometimes a bit sloppy, which is probably what leads to this confusion. You have a bad habit  of speaking of the hypothesis of the Catalyst lying as a proven fact, instead of speaking of it as a possibility.

And does so in a condesending mannor as if he's the penultimate athourity on the Reapers and the Catalyst's motivations -- even though everything he says goes against established facts about them.

[AlanC9]

Well, yeah, but if he wants to come across as a jackass that's his own business.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Which you have provided none of. Remember? You haven't provided one single valid fact in any of your statements.

The events i stated that happens after shepard is hit by the capital ship are all facts.
aswell as the reapers killing all galactic life, which is also an in game fact.
you dont seem to be grasping how lying works in life, a person doesnt need to lie to you before in order to lie to you later. he can just lie whenever he wants.
more so in the case of the reapers since its an in game fact the reapers use indoctrination and manipulation in order to achieve their goals, in other terms lying.

There is nothing to support the thesis that the catalyst is speaking the truth. 
The assumption that the crucibile changed him, is only an assumption. the reapers are still killing and harvesting.

these are facts.
Not opinions, facts.

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.


As for refuse working or not, well there isnt much for me to explain for you here. you are 100% certain that no matter what the galaxy does its already lost to the reapers, i think otherwise. but since this is open for interpretation we will leave it at that.
A good example for this is when an obvious underdog beats a much stronger opponent. our history is filled with people who badly underestimated their foes.

All of your "facts" are either flawed or incorrect. Let me point them out:
The Reapers harvest all life - they don't obliterate, they assimilate. Not real life, but not technically killing either. It's basically condemnation. So right off the bat, you voice an inaccurate belief.
The Capital Ship is Harbinger. Anderson even announces his name and Calls him Harbinger. He is identified as the ONLY Reaper that exceeds 2 kilometers, and the ONLY one with four arms instead of five. He even has his own Galactic Codex entry avalible for public viewing, listing him as the oldest and biggest Reaper in their entire galaxy-wide fleet. Meaning that there isn't a soul out there that doesn't know that Reaper is Harbinger. That ship is Harbinger -- stop trying to pretend it's not to prove an imaginary point.

Which the Reapers have never bothered to do. Because they don't believe it is neccessary TO lie. They have overwhelming power, they outnumber us vastly. EDI even says that they are holding back when the fleet attacks Earth -- they're just letting us take potshots at them for the lolz. They're power is so vast, that they literally see no need whatsoever for lying. And again, you seem to be confussed -- you are under the misconception that Reapers behave like us organics would. They don't. They are cold and logical, and they see no logical need for lying when they have such sheer overwhelming power.
And speaking from a gaming point of view -- did the Catalyst lie to us, since the Crucible did excactally what he said? Even from a gaming POV, we can see he wasn't lying. And before that, he had no reason to lie -- this is the end of the experiment he's worked on. He wants to see how the final problem plays out. What the end result of the experiment is. Like a scientist studying a project with the cold and detached mentalaty that is necessary for professionalism when working with large resources. He has absolutly no reason to lie at this point -- he genuly wants to see if the independant variable will support or end his work. He doesn't have the emotional attachments you keep trying to push -- to him, it's "You beat my prediction - no hard feelings. Tell me what you want, and I'll submit." He doesn't have the emotions necessary for any other responce besides cold acceptance that he was wrong - his solution failed, so he's letting the metaphorical "victor" decide how to fix it, or if it shouldn't be fixed. Simple as that.

And as proven by the dead Reaper, Indoctrination is NOT a result of concious manipulation. It's a passive abilaty, like the prothean sensory touch. It affects the people around it weather the Reaper wants it to or not. So - no. Not a concious effort of lying. Once again, you made a misconception.

As I said above, he has no reason to lie, none of the emotional desires to want to lie. His solution failed. The person that beat his solution is the best choice for asking how to fix it, or if it should be bothered with fixing. Simple as that -- The docking of the Crucible proved that the Solution was flawed. The Catalyst has lost faith in the Reapers -- he no longer cares about maintaining the current system since it's been just now proven to be getting gradually more inneffective. He wants to fix that -- hence why he's being honest. He wants to honestly know if Shepard  -- the variable that beat his solution's prediction -- will support creating a new one, or if life shoud try moving on without it.
You are the one that simply doesn't understand -- this isn't an organic being. It's an alien A.I. that has no concept of emotions, so none of your psychoanylization can ever even remotely apply to it.
Once Again, you ignore what you were told. Reapers are pre-programed. They cannot be rewritten after being initally programed -- at least, not without the Crucible to force a new program on them. They are basically automated -- the Catalyst may be their "Avatar." but he has no direct control over the Reapers. They are basically operating autonomusly.

These are all facts you misinterperted, misconcieved, or were simply incorrect about.
They explisitly are nothing but opinions or asumptions. Not facts.

I've stated why it won't lie, and that it wants it's solution fixed -- by the one person that surpassed it. That is not an assumption. That's fact, as stated by the Catalyst himself -- "You have altered the variables."
You have ignored every single fact that stated otherwise (not all that confussing, when you actually listen to the diolouge)/

"It doesn't get much clearer then this."

Because we were told from day one that this was the exact situation. Hackett tells you after the Arrival mission that the Alliance is nowhere near ready to fight the Reapers, stating that the entire fleet plus the Destiny Ascension was needed just to take Sovergein. He says that if the Reapers come in force, they will not win. Multiple times, Hackett repeatedly states that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally. He says it right after you leave Earth that conventional victory is impossible - so he sends you to Mars to see if the Protheans found a way. He says that the entire war effort is nothing but a smokescreen for the Crucible. He and Anderson both get together and state that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventally, and that they cannot win. Not without the Crucible. EDI says it. Garrus says it. Javik says it. Hell, even Wrex admits that the Reapers are overpowering. Damn near everyone with any tactical experiance what-so-ever says it. Just how many people have to say it? How many before it gets through to you? Conventional victory is impossible. Completely and utterly -- we were told this all the way back in ME1. We were reminded of it constantly in ME2. And we saw the results ourselves in ME3. What exactally is "open for interpertation?"
I'm not "giving up." I'm simply taking in the facts. Ignoring them does no more good for anyone.

.... Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
It's doing the same thing over and over, expecting something to change.
At least 40,000 times, this has happened. At least 40,000 cycles, the "underdog" got flattened, harvested, and blended up into new Reapers. What the hell makes you think it would ever be any different now? Completely countering your example is the Reapers history of repeated victory against those "underdogs."

[Ymladdych]

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.

Your writing is sometimes a bit sloppy, which is probably what leads to this confusion. You have a bad habit  of speaking of the hypothesis of the Catalyst lying as a proven fact, instead of speaking of it as a possibility.

And does so in a condesending mannor as if he's the penultimate athourity on the Reapers and the Catalyst's motivations -- even though everything he says goes against established facts about them.

Ohhh...erezike's a Refuser. Sorry, I didn't realize. I probably didn't give him/her the answer he/she was really looking for, then.

Here's my in-game rationale for picking "Destroy" over "Refuse":

The Battle of the Citadel and multiple conversations in ME3 make it clear as day that conventional warfare will result in certain death for everyone.

Even if there's a 99% chance that The Catalyst is lying about *everything* (I don't believe it is, but for the sake of argument), I think 1% chance of survival  > 0% chance of survival > 99% chance of mass Collectorization.

So why don't I think The Catalyst is lying? For the same reasons you've already read from other posters: the Leviathan dialogue; the fact its portrayed as a shackled AI (which means it couldn't change its core programming or "purpose"); lastly, the available options are contingent upon The Crucible's construction.

Now I do smell something fishy (no pun intended) about the Leviathans and The Crucible, but that has nothing to do with The Catalyst. Is your computer responsible for the programs you choose to run? So it still comes back to:
1% chance to fight the Leviathans another day > 0% chance > 99% chance of networked connection to megalomaniacal lobsters.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 26 juillet 2013 - 02:22 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

1) Wow... you really have absolutly nothing but blind idealisim, don't you?
The losses the Reapers took are nothing compaired to the rest of the galaxy. That's also a fact. The news reports on the Citadel tell of constant losses, and that by the end of the game, the Reapers have taken nearly every star cluster in the entire galaxy, save a few spots in the Terminus Systems. Even Palaven has fallen completely now -- the turians able to do nothing but stall for the Crucible. Garrus himself says that even with the krogan, the Reapers are mearly being slowed, not stopped. Hackett himself says that the entire war is nothing but a stalling effort. They're betting everything on the Crucible. There is no great reserve left - no backups, no extra fleets. What you see is what you get at Earth. There is nothing left. This is literally the last shot. Nothing else remains. Nothing else.
Also, that is again proven wrong by how the Reapers took their time in harvesting worlds instead of just obliterating them. Time is not a factor in their equasions. They believe that time is in abundance to them -- efficancy and the best cource of action is what they care about. Organics are the ones limited by time factors. The Reapers have no such limitations at all. So again, No - The Catalyst has absolutly zero care whatsoever about what time he gets his victory. If you're going to win anyway, why bother rushing it? That's the Catalyst's view on the war.

2) That Stargazer scene was from the next cycle. Which cronologically takes place 50,000 years after the Refuse ending. Where the hell are getting "2187" from? That's when the Reaper War started. Not the date of the next cycle!
And again, all resources are deveoted to stopping the Reapers -- they aren't bothering with anything like cryo-hybernation, because that takes away resources from fighting the Reapers.
And thus far, your entire argumenet was that this cycle supposedly survived the Reaper attack, saying that "we can't know." Yet when I present proof that the cycle gets completely wiped out in Refuse ending, you say it doesn't matter??

3) Ha, ha, ha ... No. Shepard is on the verge of death. Bleeding out and barely able to stand. One single maruder has the potential to stop Shepard dead. And did you even listen to the "definition of insanity" bit from a while ago? Doing the same thing over and over expecting it to be different this time? Harbinger wasted Shepard once -- why would it be any different Next time? And where the hell are you even getting the idea that there would be a next time? This is the final attack -- if you go down now, you aren't getting another shot. Game over. Harbinger proved with one shot that Shepard was nothing to him -- How many times did Harbinger say during ME2 that Shepard was dust on cosmic wind -- that Shepard was absolutly nothing against them, and would fall no matter what? That Shepard's struggle was worthless and the Commander nothing to them?
How many more times must Harbinger himself say he sees Shepard as worthless before it hits you that he sees Shepard as worthless? He brushed Shepard off like a fly.
Um ... did you miss the part where even the Alliance believed that everyone was dead? Major Coats said that everyone was dead. Likely, Harbinger thought that if Shepard wasn't dead then the Commander was to injured to be any form of danger to them. After all, how many soldiers that rushed the beam actually made it there?

The entire ending makes no sense at all.

1) It took them centuries to finish off the Protheans. The Protheans nearly defeated them. And they're so powerful now they're going to finish off our cycle in months. This is laughable. I'm sorry. This is called Plot Insanity. The entire thing was caused by Plot Derp, and Plot Magic. Plot Magic is allowing a 200,000 LY journey to occur in 6 months. Oh, but then it started three years ago. But that's still 1100 LY/day, and done without any fuel cost because the Reapers have Space Magic Drive!!!! The Reapers make absolutely no sense at all. I'm not sad at all to see this plot over. It was so stupid to begin with.

The Reapers also aren't taking their time. They're doing a rush job. Think about this. Instead of harvesting Bekenstein they glassed the planet because they make binoculars. That doesn't sound like taking their time to me.

That journey should have taken 20 years. 20 years may have been enough time to counter the Derp and prepare. Tech could have been improved considerably and thus you would have had more of a chance against them.

The Reapers were also way overpowered with no weakness. Why go system by system like they always did when they could simply waltz into the galaxy and steamroll through it and harvest in a matter of a few months?

Quite simply, against a foe like this you have to take a tactic that you can't save anyone, and go strictly "end justifies the means." All rules go out the window.

2) How do you know that the refuse ending Stargazer scene is from 50,000 years in the future? Remember it also contains information from Vigil -- "While the Reapers are in Dark Space hibernating they are vulnerable." Also if your recall the Asari were preparing for civilization continuity. This means stasis pods. The woman in the scene looks asari. Who is to say they were not successful? Who is to say they did not make a pre-emptive strike against the reapers in Dark Space before the 50,000 years were up? How would they do that? Opening the Citadel relay and traveling to Dark Space with their fleet and hitting the reapers while they were hibernating. Flying back through the relay. Then detonating the Dark Space relay that connects to the Citadel. That should take care of them. Bye-bye reapers.

3) No. Like I said. I took a leisurely stroll to the beam: the 100 meter mosey on a hot muggy day. I was making absolutely no effort to dodge any of Harbinger's shots. Shepard took four direct hits from Harbinger and they didn't do a damned thing to her. How am I supposed to believe any of this?

Coates saw "Everyone is dead." Then he told everyone to fall back and regroup after Harbinger took off. What a mook. Really? Coates? I guess Harby saw that "Well, Marauder has this one in case anyone actually can crawl past that." Well Marauder Shields is the final boss of the game, and he has a Plot Shot on you that you can't avoid unless your game goes whacked like mine did once.

What I find ironic is that the beam is left on and no one else tries to make it to the beam the entire time that Shepard is on the Citadel jawing with The Illusive Man. No back up. I guess Coates figured that it was hopeless and gave up. Didn't want to risk his neck. Maybe he worked for Cerberus?

Then the Charlie Foxtrot of that ending.

It never happened. It was a story told by some old guy to his grandson.