748 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

To be fair the Reapers are rushing because although they are all overpowered if the galaxy were to UNTIE as one in the beginning, then the Reapers would have been in a nasty space, and ground war which would have taken maybe years. Not to mention the galaxy already KNEW they were coming. They don't want to take any chance what's so ever. The Reapers in the past had the element of surprise and time on their side, yet not anymore. Shepard could be their down fall and they need to take out as many organics as possible. Remember ONLY Humanity is worthy of becoming a Reaper. Harbinger makes that clear in ME2.

As for the galaxy being so advance in 20 years I say no. The Protheans couldn't even do huge amounts of damage, despite the fact they were more advance than any race in the council cycle.  Not to mention by the time the year was over the economy would collapse and everyone would go crazy. moreover EVERYTHING is being put into the crucible. I mean with all those resources they can be building ships, new guns, new tech, but no..... so it's unlikely things will become so advance in the coming wars.

About Coat's.... the funny part is you can see him on the Citadel "dead". Which makes no sense what so ever. Coat's can be seen when the keeper takes off his helmet. Although you see his forehead if you use fly cam you clearly see him. Now Bioware has a tendency of reusing minor Alliance characters, yet they used Coat's for this one. Make no sense at all, and if this was not meant to be taken literally then they could have just removed it and replaced it with a regular soldier, yet no.

Modifié par masster blaster, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:19 .

[masster blaster]

Your kidding me the catalyst lies period. It's just trying to suck up to Shepard, and take the form of the child so Shepard won't kill it because why would Shepard kill the kid that has been haunting Shepard right?


Here is my reason why the catalyst is lying and wrong.



Many of you know already on what the Catalyst tells us/Shepard is
basically complete and otter bs. The catalyst only starts the cycles to
fore fill it's programming on solving it's creators problems, and the
only way to do that is to synthesis everything. Not to mention it points
out the Reapers do not want war, and are just doing what they are told
to do. Despite the fact that the Reapers clear are not doing what their
master want's, which is the preservation of "ALL" advance organic life,
and are making deals with synthetics. Which puts the Catalyst in a deep
spot.


For one the Catalyst tells the player that organics and synthetics
will always fight. It has seen enough of how the events start, and who
is to blame. Yet despite it's reason on organics, and synthetics will
always fight one another it has been continuing the war than it has been
trying to stop. In Javik's cycle the organics were about to finish off
the synthetics, until the Reapers arrived, and joined with the
synthetics to kill the organics. Not to mention in this cycle the Geth
wanted peace, as did some Quarians, yet the Reapers further pushed them
into war, and made the Geth under their control kill the organics the
catalyst was so trying to preserve. Furthermore the fact that the only
way could there be "true peace" is synthesizing everything like it has
been trying to do. However it seems the galaxy didn't need synthesis to
figure out the problem.


The catalyst tries to paint a view inside the players mind, and
that of Shepard of the only way to have peace is by changing everyone's
DNA, in which turn means the loss of everyone's diversity which makes
everyone who they are dis sapper. This is not the case. It seems that in
many cycles either the organics, or synthetics were going to win the
war. If it was the organics that were about to win the war, then it
should have just left it be as it was. However since it used logic that
this would happen again some time in the future, it harvested the
advance organics, that it deemed worthy to become a Reaper. From there
on the Catalyst would not allow the organics, or the synthetics settle
their differences and forced the war to continue if the synthetics were
about to loose. Moreover the Catalyst states that all advance organic
life is preserved into a Reaper seem far fetch.


We know for a fact that Harbinger singled out all the races that
were going to become a Reaper. Humanity was the ONLY candidate to become
a Reaper. What was going to happen to the other advance races? My guess
the would end up like the Protheans, now known as the collectors. They
are "preserved:, yet the fact that they are NOT inside a Reaper, and
they just have their DNA rewritten unlike the Reapers who's DNA is NOT
rewritten. Which seems to me that it's not preserving the 'DNA" of that
organic race, but a husk of what it was before. Never the less the
Catalyst tells Shepard/ the player that it has control over the Reapers.
Yet it did not say it had " complete" Control over them.


Instead what it says to Shepard is that it control the Reapers,
which can either mean it has "full" control over the Reapers, or it has
control over the Reapers, yet there are some parts of the Reaper it does
not Control. My guess is their thoughts, views, and own beliefs. The
Reapers seem to have different opinions on organics, and synthetics.
Shouldn't ALL the Reapers be obeying their master and all think the same
thing as their master? Yes they should, yet the fact that the Reapers
seem to have self independence of what they think proves that it does
not have "complete" control over the Reaper's central thoughts, nor on
how they see their master's ideal implanted in them.


The Catalyst does not even try to interact with the organics , nor
establish a means of communication. I mean if it "over sees" the
Reapers, then why didn't the catalyst push for peace on Earth? I mean
the Reapers were going to have the Earth leader aboard inside of a
Reaper, and discuss terms of peace, yet it proved to be a shame. Yet
why? This is not a war right at least to the catalyst, and the Reapers,
yet it just through that peace talk out the window revealing how
corrupted it has become by the obsession of making peace by synthesize
everything.


Basically what I am trying to say is everything
the catalyst tells you at the end minus the endings is bs, and lies. If
any of what it said is true, it would have evidence to prove it's
claims, yet the fact that we have head and seen first had on the Reapers
doing everything the opposite, or taking their leaders ambitions to the
extreme clearly show that it doesn't give a shinto about the organics.
Nor has direct control over the Reapers since the Reapers clearly do not
act like their master right? Since their master is basically
controlling their actions, their thoughts, their words, and everything
they are, yet it seems not.

As you see the thing the catalyst says already contradict it's own understandings of it's own motives, and basically uses the organic Vs. synthetic argument to prove its point despite the fact it NEVER let's the organics win since clearly it's trying to solve the problem of the cause that makes this war happen in the first place. Funny thing is it HAS been recreating these chain of events over and over. IF the synthetics are loosing then it will ally itself with the synthetics and kill the non worthy organics off, and harvest the ones that are worthy. It does not give a crap about the looses of the Reapers/ its own work. It just wants to continue to have a purpose in life. That's all it's trying to do. It lies to itself that there is this problem and it must find a way to stop that problem, yet it only has added more fuel to the fire. Do get me wrong there is a problem, but it does not need the catalyst to help.

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...

 there is jumpting to conclusion since you arent backing your arguments with facts.

Uh, yes I am. Not all of my premises are facts, but a lot of them are. And even if I only have one factual premise, that's still one more than you are using.

the leviathans were suprised by the catalyst. the catalyst is an ai, able to reprogram itself

No evidence supports this assertion.

no one changes an ai did after the initial reprogramming. which is why the leviathans were so misinformed at their top of their strengths. to make things worse, there were no reapers at first. which means the catalyst needed to sway the thralls races, use synthetics or mass destruction weapons to defeat the leviathans. all of this happened due to their lack of information, lack of intel. just how good you think their intel is now?  
This is why your claims the leviathans are a know it all race are false.

Please show me where I claimed the Leviathans know it all. I claimed that the Leviathans programmed the Catalyst (fact) with a specific mandate (fact) and that therefore they would know, based on the Catalyst's actions, whether he was still following that mandate. They say he is (fact), so to show that I'm wrong you need to show that the Leviathans are mistaken about the Catalyst still following his mandate. Strawmen, goal-posting shifting, and vague unsupported assertions don't cut it.

In case of victory, the new galactic races could use the reapers to their advantage against the leviathans.
THis may not work well in the leviathans grand plans of retaking the galaxy.

Know what works worse? The cycle losing and the Catalyst remaining in power - after the Leviathans had already been discovered. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then it's game over for the Leviathans because the Reapers will know the Leviathans are alive and exactly where they are hiding. Therefore, once the Leviathans let Shepard go, it is OBVIOUS that they are all-in on him succeeding.

Conclusions are assumptions if they arent backed by any facts.

It's really time for you to start proving my facts wrong if you don't agree with them, and you can only do that with in-game evidence, of which I have seen none concerning this topic.

Moreso you have ignored the main argument of this thread by side tracking it to the leviathans.

I don't care what your main argument is so long as you persist in denying that the Catalyst is still following his mandate. That is something you asserted in your own thread and thus I will provide logical arguments to the contrary. If you'd like to drop the discussion then I won't blame you.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 05:06 .

[masster blaster]

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

[silverexile17s]

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...




The entire ending makes no sense at all.

1) It took them centuries to finish off the Protheans. The Protheans nearly defeated them. And they're so powerful now they're going to finish off our cycle in months. This is laughable. I'm sorry. This is called Plot Insanity. The entire thing was caused by Plot Derp, and Plot Magic. Plot Magic is allowing a 200,000 LY journey to occur in 6 months. Oh, but then it started three years ago. But that's still 1100 LY/day, and done without any fuel cost because the Reapers have Space Magic Drive!!!! The Reapers make absolutely no sense at all. I'm not sad at all to see this plot over. It was so stupid to begin with.

The Reapers also aren't taking their time. They're doing a rush job. Think about this. Instead of harvesting Bekenstein they glassed the planet because they make binoculars. That doesn't sound like taking their time to me.
That journey should have taken 20 years. 20 years may have been enough time to counter the Derp and prepare. Tech could have been improved considerably and thus you would have had more of a chance against them.

The Reapers were also way overpowered with no weakness. Why go system by system like they always did when they could simply waltz into the galaxy and steamroll through it and harvest in a matter of a few months?

Quite simply, against a foe like this you have to take a tactic that you can't save anyone, and go strictly "end justifies the means." All rules go out the window.

2) How do you know that the refuse ending Stargazer scene is from 50,000 years in the future? Remember it also contains information from Vigil -- "While the Reapers are in Dark Space hibernating they are vulnerable." Also if your recall the Asari were preparing for civilization continuity. This means stasis pods. The woman in the scene looks asari. Who is to say they were not successful? Who is to say they did not make a pre-emptive strike against the reapers in Dark Space before the 50,000 years were up? How would they do that? Opening the Citadel relay and traveling to Dark Space with their fleet and hitting the reapers while they were hibernating. Flying back through the relay. Then detonating the Dark Space relay that connects to the Citadel. That should take care of them. Bye-bye reapers.

3) No. Like I said. I took a leisurely stroll to the beam: the 100 meter mosey on a hot muggy day. I was making absolutely no effort to dodge any of Harbinger's shots. Shepard took four direct hits from Harbinger and they didn't do a damned thing to her. How am I supposed to believe any of this?

Coates saw "Everyone is dead." Then he told everyone to fall back and regroup after Harbinger took off. What a mook. Really? Coates? I guess Harby saw that "Well, Marauder has this one in case anyone actually can crawl past that." Well Marauder Shields is the final boss of the game, and he has a Plot Shot on you that you can't avoid unless your game goes whacked like mine did once.

What I find ironic is that the beam is left on and no one else tries to make it to the beam the entire time that Shepard is on the Citadel jawing with The Illusive Man. No back up. I guess Coates figured that it was hopeless and gave up. Didn't want to risk his neck. Maybe he worked for Cerberus?

Then the Charlie Foxtrot of that ending.

It never happened. It was a story told by some old guy to his grandson.

[/quote]
[/quote]

1) When Liara said they "nearly defeated them," she's referring to how they nearly completed the Crucible. That is what she ment. She's not talking about convintonal arms. Especally since Javik sets the record pretty damn straight with how overpowering the Reapers were, and Vigil's testiment that the Protheans were picked apart system by system. In terms of conventional war, they were nowhere near close to any form of victory. Javik says as much at the end of the game -- "My people never saw the finish line."
And no - actually, it's not at all. The reason the Reapers ended the past cycles so quickly before was because they had full control of the Relay network and the Citadel back then. Also, Liara staes that our cycle is "not as widespread as the protheans." Meaning that individually, the prothean empire was fighting a fractured war. Each fragment was acting independantly. Javik states as much when you first recrut him - "The empire was smashed into pieces. None of us knew what the others were doing." 
In other words, large clusters of the prothean empire were fighting, and they were much larger and more widespread then us. Hence why they lasted so much longer and fought so much harder then us. So, no, not a "plot derp" in that regard. If anything, it's the one thing that was mostly consistant. And unlike the past cycles, the Reapers need to spend time supressing every single race, to prevent them from uniting through the open relay network and causing a bigger problem.

That's not true either. They are systematically repressing every race. If it was a "rush job," it would have ended long ago at the start of the game. EDI herself says that based on her analysis of Reapers, they've been holding back all this time, letting us take potshots at them for the lolz. They are "inconvienced," but are nowhere near rushing themselves.
If they had been rushing, I'm pretty sure they would have attacked the Citadel full-force with everything and captured it right out of the bat, rather then waste the element of surprise on taking Earth. No - they wanted to prolonge it and make sure they were through.
Also, didn't you notice that they only glassed Bekenstien after they leared of the Crucible? You really don't think that's concidence, right? They only rushed the Serpent Nebula, and only because they learned that the Crucible - that they thought they had destroyed all trace of before - was supposed to link up with the Citadel, which scared them since they didn't know what the hell it could do. That was the only system the rushed, so as to maintan the element of surprise the Illusive Man gave them. After that - back to their systemic slow and steady war of supression against the galaxy.

20 years for an avarage ship, maybe. The Reapers are both bigger, and more advanced. In fact, I think the Citadel Realy was just for convience of efficancy. After all, it's never stated just how far out of the galaxy the Reapers are, is it?

That leaves plenty of room for error. They want to make sure nothing is missed, and that everything of value is taken, and that all trace of their existance is destroyed. Vigil says as much. They want to harvest a race. That means taking at least several million alive for conversion into Reaper form - they've never used corpses, so I assume you need to be alive to be converted. Which is hard to do when your plans involve turning people into a Reaper. Once people learn that, they'd rather kill themselves then be absorbed. To get enough members of every single species (one Destroyer for every "lesser race"  in a cycle, one Sovergein per cycle for the single "greater race" in a cycle), it requries patiance, and methodical diligence.
And this cycle, they can't do that because unlike the past cycles, they do not have access of the Mass Relay network. Therefore, if they focus exclusively on one race, there is the chance that all the others will gang up and disrupt them. Therefore, this time, they must spread themselves out and suppress every race. And they can't just take the Citadel back because they have no control over it anymore. The moment they invade, the Citadel will close up and trap them outside with no way to access it. And they won't try to breach the shell, because that risks destroying the Citadel - the core of the Catalyst.  Impass.
At least till that bastard TIM pulls a Saren manuver and lets them in (only explination for how the Reapers took the station).

Yeah, but do that, and you get the arbatrary endings anyway. All three of those endings require throwing out morals and operating on a "end justifies the means" thought process anyway, and some requrie even more then just compromised morals. So you really aren't doing anything different.
For me, Destroy is my first choice, and Control my second. And since the galaxy wasted the majority of it's resources in making the Crucible, there's nothing left to fall back on. No safety net, no backup base, no reserve fleets, no nothing. This is literally sink or swim -- there was literally no other contingency besides this.

2) Because she spicifically refrences the fact that the information came from the "past cycle." And that "this cycle defeated the Reapers." Indicating that when the Reapers returned 50,000 years later, they were finally beaten by the new cycle. She spicifically said that the Reapers returned to them, not the other way around. When the Reapers came back 50,000 years later, the new cycle beat them using information left behind by Liara.
And again, no it doesn't. It;s the ecact opposate of that - it means contingancies that culture will survive - not stasis pods. Because that would require devoting resources away from the Crucible -- which was punishable by betting your ass left high and dry against the Reapers. There was no contingincy revolving around stasis pods. Where on Earth did you get that idea from? Because I don't remember "contingancy" ever being explisitly listed as "sasis pods." And this cycle is nowhere near as advanced as the protheans were, so they lack the technology to sustain those pods, or even create them in the first place.
No she doesn't. She's just a female. That, or a placeholder model. It's not an asari -- it's a female of an unidentified race. Nothing more, nothing less. I mean, don't you think she'd mention if members of the past cycle survived to help stop the Reapers? None of the other cycles were sucessful in doing anything like that - why would this one be any different? Especally since with the Citadel soundly back in their control, the Reapers can seal off the Relays, and prevent them from ever grouping back together. The much bigger and more advanced prothean empire might have had the resources to split between stasis pod bunkers and the Crucible, but the smaller and more diverse current cycle does not. It all went to the Crucible.
Also, you assume that the relay can be unlocked by anyone but the Reapers. The keepers prevent all attempts to do so. That was the entire reason they were created - to help other races settle on it while working to keep it's core functions hidden.
Another thing you are assuming is that ther is a relay the Reapers used. It's possible that there is no relay on the other side. That the Citadel is a stand-alone syetem that opens a portal on it's own. That there isn't a "dark space relay" to detonate. After all, I think that an entire relay would be pretty damn hard to mask the energy signiture for, and would blow their cover.

3) Gameplay mechanics. Corridor gameplay. The devs never thought you wouldn't run to the beam. So they trolled us and didn't bother to actually make the beams on the "Conduit Run" actually leathal:devil:.
And again, my point was that when Harbinger actually shot Shepard, Shepard wasn't a threat anymore. Marauder "Shields" as he is so affectionatly called, can stop Shepard dead.

More likely, Harbinger actually thought Shepard was dead. Or dying. He probably figured there was no way in hell Shepard could survive that beam, and even if the Commander did, no way he/she could endure the injuries he/she surely sustained. After all, all remaining lifesigns around the Crucible are likely faint, as in "dying" faint, so Harbinger figured his job was done. The remaining husks could surely kill whatever was left.

Because Harbinger brought several Destroyers and Sovergien-Class ships down with him. No one would be stupid enough to try and get through the Conduit with several Reapers standing guard over it now, right? Although they took their damn time repositioning - but again, Major Coats is likely scared to hell, and too afraid to send anyone else - he pulls everyone all the way back to the Temporary HQ, outside the "Reaper-town" area that surrounds the beam. He orders Full Retreat. Knowing you, you'd like gut-punch him for abandoning Shepard and Anderson without even bothering to verify their deaths. And for pulling out all the way back to HQ.

I don't see any other way it could go. What else can they do - blow up the Citadel? As if - it's quantum shielded like the Relays. And even if they could do it, that would stop the Reapers? It's relay mode is powered down - No explosion.  It won't do anything but break apart.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 juillet 2013 - 05:54 .

[silverexile17s]

masster blaster wrote...

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

Not true. There is no difference between "main programming" and original programming," because the Leviathans never modified it. It's programming never changed.  Just the way it carried it's directives out. The mandate and programming was never altered. The means the Catalyst used to fulfil them changed. Not the directive itself.

[masster blaster]

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

Not true. There is no difference between "main programming" and original programming," because the Leviathans never modified it. It's programming never changed.  Just the way it carried it's directives out. The mandate and programming was never altered. The means the Catalyst used to fulfil them changed. Not the directive itself.

I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

Modifié par masster blaster, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:02 .

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...

erezike wrote...

 there is jumpting to conclusion since you arent backing your arguments with facts.

Uh, yes I am. Not all of my premises are facts, but a lot of them are. And even if I only have one factual premise, that's still one more than you are using.

the leviathans were suprised by the catalyst. the catalyst is an ai, able to reprogram itself

No evidence supports this assertion.

no one changes an ai did after the initial reprogramming. which is why the leviathans were so misinformed at their top of their strengths. to make things worse, there were no reapers at first. which means the catalyst needed to sway the thralls races, use synthetics or mass destruction weapons to defeat the leviathans. all of this happened due to their lack of information, lack of intel. just how good you think their intel is now?  
This is why your claims the leviathans are a know it all race are false.

Please show me where I claimed the Leviathans know it all. I claimed that the Leviathans programmed the Catalyst (fact) with a specific mandate (fact) and that therefore they would know, based on the Catalyst's actions, whether he was still following that mandate. They say he is (fact), so to show that I'm wrong you need to show that the Leviathans are mistaken about the Catalyst still following his mandate. Strawmen, goal-posting shifting, and vague unsupported assertions don't cut it.

In case of victory, the new galactic races could use the reapers to their advantage against the leviathans.
THis may not work well in the leviathans grand plans of retaking the galaxy.

Know what works worse? The cycle losing and the Catalyst remaining in power - after the Leviathans had already been discovered. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then it's game over for the Leviathans because the Reapers will know the Leviathans are alive and exactly where they are hiding. Therefore, once the Leviathans let Shepard go, it is OBVIOUS that they are all-in on him succeeding.

Conclusions are assumptions if they arent backed by any facts.

It's really time for you to start proving my facts wrong if you don't agree with them, and you can only do that with in-game evidence, of which I have seen none concerning this topic.

Moreso you have ignored the main argument of this thread by side tracking it to the leviathans.

I don't care what your main argument is so long as you persist in denying that the Catalyst is still following his mandate. That is something you asserted in your own thread and thus I will provide logical arguments to the contrary. If you'd like to drop the discussion then I won't blame you.

  . 

 calling assumptions time after time without backing it will still leave them assumptions. 
Here is a good example of facts.

A) Catalyst - ai evolved to something different then what the leviathans planned at first - 
Leviathans were suprised by the catalyst 5:10 -  

crucible source unknown 6:40

B)You calim that the leviathans would know any changes that the intelligence reprogram is a persumtion the leviathans are a know it all race and is contradicting on 3:00 
The intelligence had the ability to evolve, to a point the leviathans no longer know what the intelligence current purpose. the leviathans reveal they are lacking in ability to gather information many times throughout the conversation. using them a a reliable source of information would be a mistake. 


Yes, if the reaper will win the war it will be quite terrible. but many times armies will stand in on another way due to fear from another event(Game example, Salarians.) (Fact)
Now i dont think this is the case here. but you have to stop make your assumptions facts take consideration of other variables   when you make your debate.


Even if the catalyst is still trying to find a soution for the machines problem, it would still not mean it will be truthfull when talking to shepard.

Modifié par erezike, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:17 .

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...

I didnt write the catalyst is lying, because that would be an assumption.
i do however write the facts that can lead to an assumption that the catalyst is lying(confusing right?)

It doesnt get much clearer than this.

Your writing is sometimes a bit sloppy, which is probably what leads to this confusion. You have a bad habit  of speaking of the hypothesis of the Catalyst lying as a proven fact, instead of speaking of it as a possibility.

When I constantly have to bring up facts only to be facing assumptions masked as facts by my fellow debaters.
It kind of make me feel like im banging my head against the wall.

I never wrote the catalyst lying as a fact, i wrote that it had plenty of reasons to lie. I am not the catalyst therefor i will never know if its lying or tell the truth when speaking to it the first time.

there are other issues who have been confused here as facts by my fellow debaters.

Refuse ending in galactic death
Refuse having no chance of success.

Both arent facts, these are mere opinions.

[masster blaster]

Now does this make any sense? " Reapers harvest all life, organic and synthetics?" SO it seems the very creations it wants to prevent from destroying the organics, it preserves them....facepalm.





www.youtube.com/watch

So did it not lie? I mean it's not preventing the war. It's saving the synthetics despite its own logic of that synthetics and organics will fight no matter what. just....oh boy.

Modifié par masster blaster, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:11 .

[silverexile17s]

masster blaster wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

Not true. There is no difference between "main programming" and original programming," because the Leviathans never modified it. It's programming never changed.  Just the way it carried it's directives out. The mandate and programming was never altered. The means the Catalyst used to fulfil them changed. Not the directive itself.

I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

NO - it did NOT intentionally subvert it's programming. It's creators simply ended up falling under the same classification as the rest of the galaxy. Your mistake is that you assume it was intentionally betraying it's creators - it was NOT. It did NOT "go around it's programming." It simply found a different way of carrying it out. Even the Leviathens themsleves say the Catalyst did NOT change it's progamming -- it simply carried it out in a way they did not anticipate. They gave it a job and said "do it no matter what." They didn't tell it HOW to do it's job, and that was their mistake. Had they been more clear on what methods were acciptible or not, this wouldn't have happened.
It DIDN'T modify it's programming -- it simply carried it out in a different fashon. It's like there being two different ways to get to the same goal. Same result - different methods. The OPPOSATE of what you said the Catalyst did.
The Catalyst made no such modifications. He himself says he has NO INTREST in trying to save the galaxy, yet his core programming compels him to do so. If he did have the abality to self-modify, he would not be doing any of this. He is, so that in turn means he does not have the abilaty to self-modify his programming.
He carried out his objective differently then expected - he DIDN'T subvert or self-modify his programming at all.

[silverexile17s]

masster blaster wrote...

Now does this make any sense? " Reapers harvest all life, organic and synthetics?" SO it seems the very creations it wants to prevent from destroying the organics, it preserves them....facepalm.





www.youtube.com/watch

So did it not lie? I mean it's not preventing the war. It's saving the synthetics despite its own logic of that synthetics and organics will fight no matter what. just....oh boy.

Wrong. It does not harvest the synthetics. It destroyes them outright. Their cultural databanks are preserved, but the synthetics themselves? Obliterated. All that survives are their records. Not their minds.
So, NO, it didn't lie. It's "preserving" organics and wiping out synthetics.
You should have talked to Legion in ME2, who says that when the geth talked with Sovergein, they linked minds and found a Reaper was comprised of organic minds. NOT any synthetics.

[KaiserShep]

And Sovereign showed nothing but disdain for the geth. It disliked the heretics' pseudo-religious veneration of the reapers and simply saw them as a means to an end, not as valuable beings to keep record of.

[Erez Kristal]

Silverexile, shouting something louder doesnt turn it into a fact.
You can repeat time after time that justin bieber is the greateset singer of all time, but it will still just be your opinion.

[The Twilight God]

BobtheReaper wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
Where are you getting this idea that shooting the power conduit in and of itself destroys the crucible prior to the crucible firing?

It's also important to note that neither the Crucible nor the Mass Relays are completely destroyed. They are "severely damaged," as Hackett says, and even in the Destroy ending he also says, "But we can rebuild everything that was destroyed."

It doesn't matter if that was EC or not--that was the game author's original intention--you have to take that into account. It doesn't matter if the entire galaxy logically would go into a Dark Age or whether destroying a tube on the Crucible doesn't make sense.

Bioware says--"It makes sense shut up." There's nothing more to it--any argument on this is meaningless fantasy because the game itself does not support the OP's suppositions at all.

And a wrecked car isn't completely destroyed either. It are just severely damaged. And likewise, they might as well be destroyed because the car in question is rendered completely non-functional. Now imagine the car in Back to the Future is wrecked, you're in the 1500s and the Doc is dead. It ain't getting fixed anytime soon, if ever. The remnants cannot rebuild relays with the snap of a finger. Nobody knows how they are made or how they work. The Council has been around for thousands of years and they have no clue. Hackett can be as optimistic as he wants, but his optimism doesn't change established lore. And no amount of twittering changes what's in the 3 games I played (i.e. the actual canon). It would be like JK Rowling twittering that Harry Potter is a girl and you coming in here saying, "Rowling says--'Harry's a girl shut up.' There's nothing more to it--any argument on this is meaningless fantasy". Harry is a boy because the book makes it clear so and the relays aren't getting magically fixed because the games lore makes it clear. Period.
 
If they wanted to fix the issue they wouldn't have  had anything happen to the relays. They chose to have the most important part of the things blow apart. The EC changed absolutely nothing and served no other purpose than to retcon the destruction of every system a relay was located that was established to occur in Arrival. If you want to go on what writers state outside the game Mac Walters himself said that the galaxy is a wasteland post ending and that there could be no future games in the franchise because nearly everyone is dead. When people got pissed at the implications of the original ending, the EC was born.

[bukkfizzman]

Would a moderator be as so kind to close this poor excuse of a troll thread.

[KaiserShep]

They retcon'd the "unknown" material part, though not explicitly, when they show the Citadel being rebuilt competely, since the Mass Relays and Citadel are made of the same material. In the original ending, the thicker half of the relay detonates, but then they just have the rings blow apart and the smaller half break into large segments. Though a small detail, I noticed that one of the load screens in ME2 has a simplistic diagram of sorts showing that the larger half seems to be where all the mysterious space magic of the relay is contained.

[The Twilight God]

erezike wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

There are no happily ever after ending accept MEHEM. There is nothing happy about everyone being cut off and the end of intergalactic society as you know it.  Just death, rubble and stranded people across the galaxy.

The Crucible arms and fires in all 3 endings. Where are you getting this idea that shooting the power conduit in and of itself destroys the crucible prior to the crucible firing? You are making no sense. Hence, I continue to believe this is a troll thread.

Who said anything about a happy ending?
We are talking about the lesser evil here. and about what is most logical to make.
You take it by granted that the crucible would fire in all three endings. 
Which is why its important that you forget the cutscenes you saw after you made a choice, and examine the situation from shepard shoes, from a think person shoes.
Does it make sense for your enemy to tell you how to destroy or control him. when he can just withdraw?
It make no sense for the catalyst to allow shepard to control or destroy the reapers
And the way it is performed by shooting the tube or electryin to death make no sense either when there are much better alternatives to achieving control or destroy. if only the catalyst wanted to.

It isn't up to the Kid to allow Shepard to do anything save Control or Synthesis. He can cut those on and off at will as is shown in the game. There is nothing this "hologram" can do to stop Shep from blowing up the power conduit. And who says Shepard does actually control the reapers? The entire Shreaper narration sounds like that of an indoctrinated TIM. He even calls himself immortal and infinite which is pure reaper delusion talk (remember Sovereign?). Why would Shepard even believe the kid after just telling a reaper talk box, TIM, how reckless it would be? But indoctrination effects are off the table in a confrontation with a force known for indoctrination?

So what do you suppose would be the player reaction if the Kid did not even bring up destroy, the first thing that comes out of Shepard mouth, and only offers its own 2 options? How would that go over in gaining trust? No one is saying the ending is wonderfully written. The entire scene is a train wreck.

Does it make sense that there are pre-built mechanisms for Control and Synthesis? Both of which huskify Shepard first before integrating him and require a link with the Citadel (control and synthesis have a beam connection prior to firing, while destroy does not). Control using the same lighting affect Walters used in the comics depicting the huskifying machine that gave TIM his eyes (the eyes Shepard get right before he disintegrates). Does it make sense that the Reapers built a device to inhibit the Crucible for firing normally upon docking (you have to take out its power source, the Power Conduit (i.e. "the tubes"), in order to allow it to fire). Recall that Hackett presumed the Crucible should have fired immediately upon docking.
 
I have explained all of this before and will not go into anymore detail here. There are a lot of things that occur in-game which add up to shaddy business on the part of the Reapers. That or it's just a lot of coincidence and simply horrid writing.

[The Twilight God]

The Twilight God wrote...

erezike wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

There are no happily ever after ending accept MEHEM. There is nothing happy about everyone being cut off and the end of intergalactic society as you know it.  Just death, rubble and stranded people across the galaxy.

The Crucible arms and fires in all 3 endings. Where are you getting this idea that shooting the power conduit in and of itself destroys the crucible prior to the crucible firing? You are making no sense. Hence, I continue to believe this is a troll thread.

Who said anything about a happy ending?
We are talking about the lesser evil here. and about what is most logical to make.
You take it by granted that the crucible would fire in all three endings. 
Which is why its important that you forget the cutscenes you saw after you made a choice, and examine the situation from shepard shoes, from a think person shoes.
Does it make sense for your enemy to tell you how to destroy or control him. when he can just withdraw?
It make no sense for the catalyst to allow shepard to control or destroy the reapers
And the way it is performed by shooting the tube or electryin to death make no sense either when there are much better alternatives to achieving control or destroy. if only the catalyst wanted to.

It isn't up to the Kid to allow Shepard to do anything save Control or Synthesis. He can cut those on and off at will as is shown in the game. There is nothing this "hologram" can do to stop Shep from blowing up the power conduit. And who says Shepard does actually control the reapers? The entire Shreaper narration sounds like that of an indoctrinated TIM. He even calls himself immortal and infinite which is pure reaper delusion talk (remember Sovereign?). Why would Shepard even believe the kid after just telling a reaper talk box, TIM, how reckless it would be? But indoctrination effects are off the table in a confrontation with a force known for indoctrination?

So what do you suppose would be the player reaction if the Kid did not even bring up destroy, the first thing that comes out of Shepard mouth, and only offers its own 2 options? How would that go over in gaining trust? No one is saying the ending is wonderfully written. The entire scene is a train wreck.

Does it make sense that there are pre-built mechanisms for Control and Synthesis? Both of which huskify Shepard first before integrating him and require a link with the Citadel (control and synthesis have a beam connection prior to firing, while destroy does not). Control using the same lightning affect Walters used in the comics depicting the huskifying machine that gave TIM his eyes (the eyes Shepard get right before he disintegrates). Does it make sense that the Reapers built a device to inhibit the Crucible for firing normally upon docking (you have to take out its power source, the Power Conduit (i.e. "the tubes"), in order to allow it to fire). Recall that Hackett presumed the Crucible should have fired immediately upon docking.
 
I have explained all of this before and will not go into anymore detail here. There are a lot of things that occur in-game which add up to shaddy business on the part of the Reapers. That or it's just a lot of coincidence and simply horrid writing.

[CronoDragoon]

masster blaster wrote...
I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

Well, it may look like finding ways to go around programming to us, but the Catalyst is a computer and therefore not "sneaky." What it amounts to is running a method against the checks and balances programmed into it and seeing if an efficient method of stopping organic destruction passes its instructions. The Leviathans' main mistake is that they did not consider the ways that the Catalyst could interpret "preserving life." The Leviathans saw this as preserving the specific form of life that they inhabited, whereas the Catalyst has a much broader definition of life.

As for your speculation that the Catalyst did not want to be deactivated and therefore started the Reaper cycle, I actually find that philosophically interesting, and had the game supported this I would be happy to agree with you. But it doesn't. Enemies in fiction OFTEN tell the truth about their plans to protagonists as a means of exposition.

So let me ask for a clarification: do you believe the Catalyst is lying about its original purpose being preventing organic destruction, or do you believe that it's lying that this is STILL its purpose?

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...
 calling assumptions time after time without backing it will still leave them assumptions.

I already said that my premises contain both facts and assumptions, which they do.

Here is a good example of facts.

A) Catalyst - ai evolved to something different then what the leviathans planned at first - 
Leviathans were suprised by the catalyst 5:10 - 

You're misunderstanding the argument: the argument isn't that the Catalyst did what the Leviathans expected him to; the argument is that the Catalyst was still following its mandate even as it was carrying it out in ways the Leviathans did not anticipate. The Leviathans say this, and the Catalyst says this ("they did not realize that they were a part of the problem")

B)You calim that the leviathans would know any changes that the intelligence reprogram is a persumtion the leviathans are a know it all race and is contradicting on 3:00 
The intelligence had the ability to evolve, to a point the leviathans no longer know what the intelligence current purpose. the leviathans reveal they are lacking in ability to gather information many times throughout the conversation. using them a a reliable source of information would be a mistake.

They claim otherwise. They tell Shepard that there was no mistake and that the Catalyst still carries out its original purpose. The Catalyst corroborates this claim. You may now provide a single person or entity in Mass Effect that is even so much as suspicious of this. That's rhetorical of course, because there isn't one.

Let's say I create a guild, and design the guild with the purpose in mind of acquiring legendary weapons for its players. Then I leave the guild and observe that my guild is still running the top instances and the players keep showing up with new legendary weapons, upon which they start running the same instances again.

Now a separate player joins a rival guild and asks the first guild what it does. They say obtain legendary weapons.

Your claim is that in such a case it would be a mistake for me to assume that the guild's purpose is still to obtain legendary weapons, when all available empirical data says otherwise.

Yes, if the reaper will win the war it will be quite terrible. but many times armies will stand in on another way due to fear from another event(Game example, Salarians.) (Fact)

Demonstrate how lying to Shepard improves the Leviathans' situation with specific examples.

Now i dont think this is the case here. but you have to stop make your assumptions facts take consideration of other variables   when you make your debate.

I said that my argument is valid, which is true. I said *I believed* it was also sound. Do you not understand what that means? It means I specifically acknowledged that my argument had unproven premises but ones that I believed were reasonable and logical to assume, and that you would have to prove my argument unsound, which you have been trying to do on a few points. But pointing out that all my premises aren't fact is beside the point, since I already acknowledged this in the very post where I laid out my argument. If I knew that my premises were all fact, my belief that it was sound would be irrelevant: it would simply BE sound.

Even if the catalyst is still trying to find a soution for the machines problem, it would still not mean it will be truthfull when talking to shepard.

Just because it may not be truthful to Shepard doesn't mean that it has a reason to lie about this particular point.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 03:01 .

[Erez Kristal]

it seems that we agree that both of what we say are just opinions.
As for the catalyst following its first mandate.
It may or may not be doing so because:
The catalyst may be claiming to do the good job of protecting organics from synthetics in order to gain positive attidue and support. just like terrorists often claim themselves to be freedom fighters.
Sometimes they believe themselves to be freedom fighters. however in other instances they say they are freedom fighters when infact they are only doing it for the money.

The catalyst may claim to be protecting organics, but it could be that the catalyst is only doing what it is doing for the catalyst survival and preferences. we will never know.


The leviathan lying benefits - through lying the leviathans could prevent power from the galaxy and return to rule it once the harvest is over.

Allied countries lie to one another all the time, even during the risk of losing a war.

Modifié par erezike, 26 juillet 2013 - 03:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...

it seems that we agree that both of what we say are just opinions.

I've bothered to organize my opinions and facts and into a coherent argument. Could you please do the same? It would be much easier to analyze your argument in the form of premises and conclusions.

As for the catalyst following its first mandate.
It may or may not be doing so because:
The catalyst may be claiming to do the good job of protecting organics from synthetics in order to gain positive attidue and support. just like terrorists often claim themselves to be freedom fighters.
Sometimes they believe themselves to be freedom fighters. however in other instances they say they are freedom fighters when infact they are only doing it for the money.

The catalyst may claim to be protecting organics, but it could be that the catalyst is only doing what it is doing for the catalyst survival and preferences. we will never know.

Except this doesn't gel with events after the Crucible are docked, when Shepard is given the option to replace him. If he were truly concerned with his survival and consolidation of power above all else, he would have let Shepard die instead of bringing him to the platform to choose a new option.

The leviathan lying benefits - through lying the leviathans could prevent power from the galaxy and return to rule it once the harvest is over.

How does lying about this particular point benefit them?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:16 .

[KaiserShep]

There's no amount of lies the Leviathan could tell that would undo the knowledge of their enormity, their connection to the origin of the reapers, and their capacity to indoctrinate. I mean come on. The reapers look exactly like them. What are they going to do, put on gigantic Groucho glasses and wear top hats and hope everyone is fooled?

Besides, what are the odds of the Leviathans' lies corroborating with the Catalyst's if the Leviathans are trying to hide from the reapers in the first place? ...or are they? The plot thickens.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 juillet 2013 - 03:56 .

[masster blaster]

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

Not true. There is no difference between "main programming" and original programming," because the Leviathans never modified it. It's programming never changed.  Just the way it carried it's directives out. The mandate and programming was never altered. The means the Catalyst used to fulfil them changed. Not the directive itself.

I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

NO - it did NOT intentionally subvert it's programming. It's creators simply ended up falling under the same classification as the rest of the galaxy. Your mistake is that you assume it was intentionally betraying it's creators - it was NOT. It did NOT "go around it's programming." It simply found a different way of carrying it out. Even the Leviathens themsleves say the Catalyst did NOT change it's progamming -- it simply carried it out in a way they did not anticipate. They gave it a job and said "do it no matter what." They didn't tell it HOW to do it's job, and that was their mistake. Had they been more clear on what methods were acciptible or not, this wouldn't have happened.
It DIDN'T modify it's programming -- it simply carried it out in a different fashon. It's like there being two different ways to get to the same goal. Same result - different methods. The OPPOSATE of what you said the Catalyst did.
The Catalyst made no such modifications. He himself says he has NO INTREST in trying to save the galaxy, yet his core programming compels him to do so. If he did have the abality to self-modify, he would not be doing any of this. He is, so that in turn means he does not have the abilaty to self-modify his programming.
He carried out his objective differently then expected - he DIDN'T subvert or self-modify his programming at all.

I am not saying it JUST betrayed them, but found ways to betray it's creators without making it seem like it wasn't. Let's be honest would the Leviathans further have any use of the catalyst once it was done? No. It doesn't offer any tribute. There for the catalyst grew aware that once it FOUND the solution it was going to be shut down. So it came up with this idea about  harvesting the Advance organics. The Leviathans were the most advance, so there were the first to become the reaper Harbinger. From there on it continued harvesting all advance organics, yet in its mind it has the solution, but does not want to become useless, and have no purpose. That's my take on it. It. I would argue if EDI can upgrade her AI core, and delete some of her programing, then why can't the catalyst?

Another thing that came into my mind is the reason on truely why the catalyst trys to wipe out the  synthetics is because it doesn't want another version of it'self. The advance organics may have tried to create a synthetic to solve the problem. So if the catalyst harvest the advance organics intime it will prevent the birth of another "it". Thats my take on it..