748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...


I've bothered to organize my opinions and facts and into a coherent argument. Could you please do the same? 

 i had, but it seems to me that every time i try to explain to you the difference between facts and opinions i hit a brick wall.
I guess it falls down to understand of tactics which you seem to lack.

i will how ever summarize things in hope you think about them later on and do understand.

Last man standing - the tactic applied when a few forces are struggling one another for the spoils. in our case its the reapers, the leviathans and galactic races.

the benefits of lying - when you lie to a different person or party you can lead them to do things that will benefit your goals, goals which you wouldnt have been able to achieve otherwise.
In our case- the catalyst may lead shepard to believe he has the power to make the choice that will determine the fate of the galaxy. when in reality shepard is but a puppet in the catalyst game.  this will explains why the beam is left open. why there is little ressitance to face shepard as he makes his way inside the citadel. why the captial ship leaves mysteriously. why shepard survive the laser hit, why shepard is elvated up the elvator and why the catalyst explains shepard the choices he has.

I do not persume to know if the catalyst is lying or not. these are but the mere benefits of lying to the catalyst.

[masster blaster]

CronoDragoon wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

Well, it may look like finding ways to go around programming to us, but the Catalyst is a computer and therefore not "sneaky." What it amounts to is running a method against the checks and balances programmed into it and seeing if an efficient method of stopping organic destruction passes its instructions. The Leviathans' main mistake is that they did not consider the ways that the Catalyst could interpret "preserving life." The Leviathans saw this as preserving the specific form of life that they inhabited, whereas the Catalyst has a much broader definition of life.

As for your speculation that the Catalyst did not want to be deactivated and therefore started the Reaper cycle, I actually find that philosophically interesting, and had the game supported this I would be happy to agree with you. But it doesn't. Enemies in fiction OFTEN tell the truth about their plans to protagonists as a means of exposition.

So let me ask for a clarification: do you believe the Catalyst is lying about its original purpose being preventing organic destruction, or do you believe that it's lying that this is STILL its purpose?

I believe its lying to you no doubt. I mean sure it tells you straight up that it harvest organic life, and that it try's to prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life, but the fact that it is a synthetic and paints a view of synthetics are the end of everything put a nail in its words. Not to mention I find it hard that it can talk about the endings,about the Reapers, its purpose, and itself, yet it will not explain the origins, and who created the crucible. Which put's further inferences that it is "the Reapers" that created the crucible, yet over time the organics modified the crucible. It would explain why synthesis is there as an option.Once the organics got a hold of the crucible plans the catalyst ever since tried to destroy it because the organics already changed the crucible's purpose.

Now that's just mo, yet it makes sense to some degree. You see when you ask about the Leviathans about the crucible it pauses about the " who designed it". Which I believe they don't really know who built the crucible first. Which makes me wonder if the Reapers built it. I mean they built the Citadel, they built the relays, every tech we have is based on the paths the Reapers have laid out. It does not surprise me the Reapers created the crucible, yet was modified by the organics, and was lost to them.

[masster blaster]

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Now does this make any sense? " Reapers harvest all life, organic and synthetics?" SO it seems the very creations it wants to prevent from destroying the organics, it preserves them....facepalm.





www.youtube.com/watch

So did it not lie? I mean it's not preventing the war. It's saving the synthetics despite its own logic of that synthetics and organics will fight no matter what. just....oh boy.

Wrong. It does not harvest the synthetics. It destroyes them outright. Their cultural databanks are preserved, but the synthetics themselves? Obliterated. All that survives are their records. Not their minds.
So, NO, it didn't lie. It's "preserving" organics and wiping out synthetics.
You should have talked to Legion in ME2, who says that when the geth talked with Sovergein, they linked minds and found a Reaper was comprised of organic minds. NOT any synthetics.

Um it clearly said the Reapers harvest both organics and synthetics. Unless the catalyst lied to use about that then no it harvest both organics and synthetics it seems. Also for one that destroys synthetics it uses synthetics to kill organics, and aids them. So imo it try's to prove to everyone organics and synthetics will never get along. Cultural databanks> I have a hard time that could be the case, but even if it was then why preserve them?. I saw no signs or hints that is the case. Also you do realize that the catalyst calls the Reaper SYNTHETICS. They are the Synthetics that are molded after it's creators.

Also in the first line it says " ....harvest all-organics and synthetics-....".

Modifié par masster blaster, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:35 .

[CronoDragoon]

erezike wrote...
]  i had, but it seems to me that every time i try to explain to you the difference between facts and opinions i hit a brick wall.

No, you haven't. Use the same formal logic structure that I used so that I can understand your argument. Otherwise I'm left to believe that without any evidence you are merely asserting that there is a greater than 0% chance that the Catalyst is lying. Is that really your argument?

I guess it falls down to understand of tactics which you seem to lack.

This is rich. So when Commander Erezike retreats from a battle and has to explain it later on to an Admiral, he's going to say, "Sometimes in war it is beneficial to retreat" despite the fact that this doesn't explain why you chose to retreat from this particular battle.

Last man standing - the tactic applied when a few forces are struggling one another for the spoils. in our case its the reapers, the leviathans and galactic races.

And?

the benefits of lying - when you lie to a different person or party you can lead them to do things that will benefit your goals, goals which you wouldnt have been able to achieve otherwise.

Still speaking in broad terms. Please show how the Leviathans lying to Shepard about the Catalyst's purpose improves their standing.

In our case- the catalyst may lead shepard to believe he has the power to make the choice that will determine the fate of the galaxy. when in reality shepard is but a puppet in the catalyst game.  this will explains why the beam is left open. why there is little ressitance to face shepard as he makes his way inside the citadel. why the captial ship leaves mysteriously. why shepard survive the laser hit, why shepard is elvated up the elvator and why the catalyst explains shepard the choices he has.

This makes no logical sense considering the Crucible is destroyed if Shepard waits too long to make a choice.

I do not persume to know if the catalyst is lying or not. these are but the mere benefits of lying to the catalyst.

If the Catalyst can change its programming, then why does it need to do all of this to get Shepard to choose?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:36 .

[masster blaster]

Well to be fair Crono it may lead Shepard away from Destroy, yet it seems like it doesn't have full Control over it's Reapers. It could have told the reapers to not Destroy the crucible right? Yet no. So it makes me wonder if the catalyst is lying to some degree about controlling the Reapers. There for I can not trust Control. Not to mention if it is playing Shepard then it has to make it seem real. If Shepard is not wiling to work with it, then oh well. It's like if a terrorist gives someone a dead line, and if it takes to long they are going to hit a target somewhere.

Modifié par masster blaster, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:50 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

Silverexile, shouting something louder doesnt turn it into a fact.
You can repeat time after time that justin bieber is the greateset singer of all time, but it will still just be your opinion.

First off - I don't like Justin Bieber at all. In fact, I hate him.
Second - You are quick to classify people as a certan type, just because I argue facts while you argue interpertation.
Third - You have yet to present a single valid fact in this entire thing.
Forth - You have come across as incredably condsending, toting how "superiour" your line of thinking is, even though it's in direct conflict with established lore.

[CronoDragoon]

masster blaster wrote...
 So it makes me wonder if the catalyst is lying to some degree about controlling the Reapers. There for I can not trust Control. 

Even after seeing the epilogues or not counting the epilogues?

Either way, it's a curious conclusion. The Leviathans tell you he's controlling the Reapers. Vendetta tells you someone's controlling the Reapers. The Catalyst tells you he's controlling the Reapers. After you replace him as Catalyst, you are shown controlling the Reapers. The Illusive Man believed based on his study of Indoctrination and the Crucible that it was possible to control the Reapers via the Crucible. This is sufficient evidence for me to believe in Control. To draw the conclusion from the fact that the Reapers are trying to destroy the Crucible that the Catalyst cannot control them is effectively a circular argument, since you are using your conclusion ( The Catalyst is lying) as a premise, instead of opting to use Occam's Razor based on in-game evidence that the Catalyst can control the Reapers and is trying to destroy the Crucible.

There is also the fact that an independent source (Vendetta) confirms that the Reapers used indoctrinated forces to sabotage the Crucible in the Prothean cycle. This demonstrably proves that the Reapers do not want the Crucible docked to the Citadel.

Obviously, it's possible that the Catalyst can't control the Reapers; in the same way that it is possible that the Great Gatsby was an alien in disguise. Point being no evidence or dialogue specifically supports this claim.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:06 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

it seems that we agree that both of what we say are just opinions.
As for the catalyst following its first mandate.
It may or may not be doing so because:
The catalyst may be claiming to do the good job of protecting organics from synthetics in order to gain positive attidue and support. just like terrorists often claim themselves to be freedom fighters.
Sometimes they believe themselves to be freedom fighters. however in other instances they say they are freedom fighters when infact they are only doing it for the money.

The catalyst may claim to be protecting organics, but it could be that the catalyst is only doing what it is doing for the catalyst survival and preferences. we will never know.


The leviathan lying benefits - through lying the leviathans could prevent power from the galaxy and return to rule it once the harvest is over.

Allied countries lie to one another all the time, even during the risk of losing a war.

Says the person that has not presented a single valid fact in his entire arguement. This whole time, you have failed to provide any form of structured responce to stated facts. What you say may be opinion, but what I've said has been taken from stated in-game facts.

It's a machine. It doesn't care about how people see it - it's got enough power in the galaxy to not need to give a damn about it, even if it did have the capability to care. Which it doesn't since it lacks emotions.
The Catalyst doesn't have those material wants or needs. It's not applcible to any of the factors you mentioned. Psychology doesn't apply to something that doesn't have any emotions to reason with.

Um.... yeah, we DO know. Because it's creators told us so. The Leviathans straight-up tell you that the Catalyst has not deviated from it's original mandate. That there "was no mistake" in it's logic or flaw in it's actions. The only thing was that it took a path they didn't anticipate. A route they didn't know existed. They tell us straight-up that the Catalyst only cares about it's mandate -- it could care less about it's personal survival as long as it's task is acomplished. Just like any machine loyal to it's programming.

Dude, there are barely any of them left. And the majority of their indoctrination artifacts get used against the Reapers. What the hell does lying get them at this stage of the game? We know where they live - there's nothing they can do anymore.

Not without reason. Which the Catalyst lacks. It literally has no reason to lie.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .

[silverexile17s]

masster blaster wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Crono I think the catalyst has a choice to follow it's original programming, however it's MAIN programming which is to solve a problem is still it's primary objective. However the things it's done....and the choices it has made are all for nothing, and I believe it could have found other ways for the solution to be over, yet it did not want to. I had a feeling if the catalyst DID solve the problem already in the Leviathans cycle the Leviathans would have shut it down. So it rebelled against them, yet still obeying it's programming and harvested them. It does not want to stop trying to find a solution because it wants to have a purpose and live. Yes the end of ME3 clearly show the catalyst is wiling to allow Shepard to end it all seems to me far fetch. If Shepard was going to kill the Reapers and the catalyst why didn't it try to stop him/her? I mean really it's not going to put up a fight? After all the horrific thing it and it's Reapers have done to the past cycles it's giving up because Shepard managed to be NEAR the catalyst?

Not true. There is no difference between "main programming" and original programming," because the Leviathans never modified it. It's programming never changed.  Just the way it carried it's directives out. The mandate and programming was never altered. The means the Catalyst used to fulfil them changed. Not the directive itself.

I meant it still found WAYS to go around it's direct programming. It still follows the main program, however it's original programs have been some what modified to serve its own ends. Basically like how EDI modifies her core programming is what the catalyst basically did/does.

NO - it did NOT intentionally subvert it's programming. It's creators simply ended up falling under the same classification as the rest of the galaxy. Your mistake is that you assume it was intentionally betraying it's creators - it was NOT. It did NOT "go around it's programming." It simply found a different way of carrying it out. Even the Leviathens themsleves say the Catalyst did NOT change it's progamming -- it simply carried it out in a way they did not anticipate. They gave it a job and said "do it no matter what." They didn't tell it HOW to do it's job, and that was their mistake. Had they been more clear on what methods were acciptible or not, this wouldn't have happened.
It DIDN'T modify it's programming -- it simply carried it out in a different fashon. It's like there being two different ways to get to the same goal. Same result - different methods. The OPPOSATE of what you said the Catalyst did.
The Catalyst made no such modifications. He himself says he has NO INTREST in trying to save the galaxy, yet his core programming compels him to do so. If he did have the abality to self-modify, he would not be doing any of this. He is, so that in turn means he does not have the abilaty to self-modify his programming.
He carried out his objective differently then expected - he DIDN'T subvert or self-modify his programming at all.

I am not saying it JUST betrayed them, but found ways to betray it's creators without making it seem like it wasn't. Let's be honest would the Leviathans further have any use of the catalyst once it was done? No. It doesn't offer any tribute. There for the catalyst grew aware that once it FOUND the solution it was going to be shut down. So it came up with this idea about  harvesting the Advance organics. The Leviathans were the most advance, so there were the first to become the reaper Harbinger. From there on it continued harvesting all advance organics, yet in its mind it has the solution, but does not want to become useless, and have no purpose. That's my take on it. It. I would argue if EDI can upgrade her AI core, and delete some of her programing, then why can't the catalyst?

Another thing that came into my mind is the reason on truely why the catalyst trys to wipe out the  synthetics is because it doesn't want another version of it'self. The advance organics may have tried to create a synthetic to solve the problem. So if the catalyst harvest the advance organics intime it will prevent the birth of another "it". Thats my take on it..

Again, that is WRONG. It didn't "betray" them. Even the Leviathans themselves say that the Catalyst didn't betray their orders. And I'd think they'd know a little better then you would on that situation.
How about you be honest here - do the Leviathans seem the type to throw anything useful away? And once again,, you use a completely incorrect premise by falsely assuming the Catalyst has any form of self-preservation.  It Does Not. All it cares about is fulfulling the mandate.  It doens't CARE about getting killed -- as shown when it gives you the Destroy and Control solutions and willingly submits to them. That right there proves it doesn't care about death.

WRONG. It sees them as a threat to organics. It's not this mustache-twirling villian you keep trying to liken it to -- it's just a computer running on cold logic. It doesn't have any of those emotions.

[Reorte]

masster blaster wrote...

I believe its lying to you no doubt. I mean sure it tells you straight up that it harvest organic life, and that it try's to prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life, but the fact that it is a synthetic and paints a view of synthetics are the end of everything put a nail in its words.

You know in all this time I don't actually remember seeing that really rather big, obvious, important point ever brought up, or thought of it myself. I am feeling like a complete idiot.

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Either way, it's a curious conclusion. The Leviathans tell you he's controlling the Reapers. Vendetta tells you someone's controlling the Reapers. The Catalyst tells you he's controlling the Reapers. After you replace him as Catalyst, you are shown controlling the Reapers. The Illusive Man believed based on his study of Indoctrination and the Crucible that it was possible to control the Reapers via the Crucible. This is sufficient evidence for me to believe in Control.

It might be sufficient evidence that the Reapers are controllable but that's not the same thing as trusting the option you're given for doing so. That said the idea that the Reapers are controllable runs somewhat counter to how they were presented before that (if it's not just a completely destroying their minds and repurposing the body type of control).

[AlanC9]

I never had any problem with this aspect. The Reapers have executed 20,000 or so cycles of a plan that's somewhat dangerous, highly inefficient, and of no particular use to anyone except the Catalyst. Since they haven't realized this themselves, I don't think they can realize it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:34 .

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...


I never had any problem with this aspect. The Reapers have executed 20,000 or so cycles of a plan that's somewhat dangerous, highly inefficient, and of no particular use to anyone except the Catalyst. Since they haven't realized this themselves, I don't think they can realize it.

I suppose that that does argue against it a bit, although it's still IMO most of the games vs. last-second exposition dump.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
It might be sufficient evidence that the Reapers are controllable but that's not the same thing as trusting the option you're given for doing so.

 
What do you mean by trust? I'm not implying that I can trust Control will work as a utopic solution, only that through a combination of what we are told and what we are shown by the epilogues, it's sufficient evidence to show that the Reapers are 1. controllable in 2. the same manner that the Catalyst controlled them.

That said the idea that the Reapers are controllable runs somewhat counter to how they were presented before that (if it's not just a completely destroying their minds and repurposing the body type of control).

Not if the Catalyst's control works as indoctrination works, in which minds are being influenced with no awareness that such is happening. In fact I think this is the only viable interpretation given the way that Sovereign and Harbinger seem to regard themselves as independent forces. Indeed that the Catalyst's mind is not synonomous with the amalgamation of Reaper minds is shown by the stark contrast in how the Catalyst views the Reapers (irrefutably failed attempts at Synthesis) vs. how they see themselves (pinnacles of evolution).

This brings up the question of why the Catalyst would call himself the "collective intelligence" of the Reapers. Some may interpret this as some sort of hive-mind, but I rather think it's a fancy way of saying he uploads the data of every new Reaper's mind into his own, assimilating all the culture and information that (may or may not be) stored there.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:42 .

[AlanC9]

Reorte wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I never had any problem with this aspect. The Reapers have executed 20,000 or so cycles of a plan that's somewhat dangerous, highly inefficient, and of no particular use to anyone except the Catalyst. Since they haven't realized this themselves, I don't think they can realize it.

I suppose that that does argue against it a bit, although it's still IMO most of the games vs. last-second exposition dump.

Depends on what you thought was going on in the earlier games. All I learned in the last-minute info dump was that the cycles were of use to the Catalyst. The dangerous and inefficient part was something I took away from ME1, which ME2 made even worse by making the Reapers dependent on the harvest.

So I suppose you could say that I always expected the Catalyst -- or at least, some kind of basic logic flaw all the way at the bottom of the Reaper's programming.

Edit: in ME1, I wasn't sure if Sovereign was hiding the Reapers' true perpose behind a bunch of pretentious blather because he was toying with Shepard, of if he was spouting pretentious blather because he didn't know why the Reapers do what they do. Turns out it was the latter.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 juillet 2013 - 06:54 .

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...
It might be sufficient evidence that the Reapers are controllable but that's not the same thing as trusting the option you're given for doing so.

 
What do you mean by trust? I'm not implying that I can trust Control will work as a utopic solution, only that through a combination of what we are told and what we are shown by the epilogues, it's sufficient evidence to show that the Reapers are 1. controllable in 2. the same manner that the Catalyst controlled them.

What it all tells us is that it's possible to control the Reapers. What it does not tell us is that the option we're given will really control the Reapers. Metagaming shows us that it does but that's metagaming.

That said the idea that the Reapers are controllable runs somewhat counter to how they were presented before that (if it's not just a completely destroying their minds and repurposing the body type of control).

Not if the Catalyst's control works as indoctrination works, in which minds are being influenced with no awareness that such is happening. In fact I think this is the only viable interpretation given the way that Sovereign and Harbinger seem to regard themselves as independent forces. Indeed that the Catalyst's mind is not synonomous with the amalgamation of Reaper minds is shown by the stark contrast in how the Catalyst views the Reapers (irrefutably failed attempts at Synthesis) vs. how they see themselves (pinnacles of evolution).

The only way that can be done is if the person mostly has their own minds and gets nudged occasionally. Go much further than that and you've as good as destroyed and replaced their mind (which is consistent with how people fall apart under prolonged indoctrination). When it comes to the Reapers something else is presumably going on; it doesn't really make much sense to create them then have to continually force them to do what you want - just build them to do what you want in the first place. They are clearly capable of mostly independent action though, and don't seem to run off doing what they want instead. How to reconcile those? The best I've come up with is that they are built to view the Catalyst as some sort of god.

This brings up the question of why the Catalyst would call himself the "collective intelligence" of the Reapers. Some may interpret this as some sort of hive-mind, but I rather think it's a fancy way of saying he uploads the data of every new Reaper's mind into his own, assimilating all the culture and information that (may or may not be) stored there.

That sounds more likely.

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

Depends on what you thought was going on in the earlier games. All I learned in the last-minute info dump was that the cycles were of use to the Catalyst. The dangerous and inefficient part was something I took away from ME1, which ME2 made even worse by making the Reapers dependent on the harvest.

So I suppose you could say that I always expected the Catalyst -- or at least, some kind of basic logic flaw all the way at the bottom of the Reaper's programming.

Since we don't know why they're doing it until the end there's no way of telling whether it's dangerous and inefficient or not. However before the Catalyst the Reapers seem to be acting entirely of their own volition.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
What it all tells us is that it's possible to control the Reapers. What it does not tell us is that the option we're given will really control the Reapers. Metagaming shows us that it does but that's metagaming.

Well, yeah. I'm not interested in whether or not you can trust Control without knowledge of what happens, I'm saying that based on what we do know happens, Control works as exposited. In essence I am showing that IT is dubious given all information, not given what you know at the platform. I didn't entirely trust the Catalyst either when I picked Destroy in my first playthrough. (I still pick Destroy, but not because I don't trust him anymore)

The only way that can be done is if the person mostly has their own minds and gets nudged occasionally. Go much further than that and you've as good as destroyed and replaced their mind (which is consistent with how people fall apart under prolonged indoctrination). When it comes to the Reapers something else is presumably going on; it doesn't really make much sense to create them then have to continually force them to do what you want - just build them to do what you want in the first place. They are clearly capable of mostly independent action though, and don't seem to run off doing what they want instead. How to reconcile those? The best I've come up with is that they are built to view the Catalyst as some sort of god.

That Shepard can replace the Catalyst and control them to not do the cycle rules out this being programmed into the Reapers at "birth" - though I know you were mostly using this example rhetorically. Nevertheless, the Catalyst has empirically observed what happens when you rely on a program to always carry out your orders based on its initial programming (namely, it doesn't work - hence the Catalyst being in charge) and probably opted for a method instead by which he can continue to control them - in whatever fashion he does.

Had the Leviathans been able to do such, they'd still be running the galaxy.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:05 .

[AlanC9]

Reorte wrote...
Since we don't know why they're doing it until the end there's no way of telling whether it's dangerous and inefficient or not. However before the Catalyst the Reapers seem to be acting entirely of their own volition.

We can't tell? Allowing organics to develop mass effect technology is dangerous, and of no particular use since the Reapers are quite capable of seeding intelligent organics on new planets rather than letting them develop the technology to do it themselves.. Waiting 50,000 years between harvests and then exterminating everything is inefficient.  I suppose it's possible that the Reapers just aren't all that smart and never thought of anything better than slash-and-burn agriculture, but the Goa'uld operation is much more sensible.

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Since we don't know why they're doing it until the end there's no way of telling whether it's dangerous and inefficient or not. However before the Catalyst the Reapers seem to be acting entirely of their own volition.

We can't tell? Allowing organics to develop mass effect technology is dangerous, and of no particular use since the Reapers are quite capable of seeding intelligent organics on new planets rather than letting them develop the technology to do it themselves.. Waiting 50,000 years between harvests and then exterminating everything is inefficient.  I suppose it's possible that the Reapers just aren't all that smart and never thought of anything better than slash-and-burn agriculture, but the Goa'uld operation is much more sensible.

I'll grant you that it's hard to think of an explanation where it would be a sensible approach

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Since we don't know why they're doing it until the end there's no way of telling whether it's dangerous and inefficient or not. However before the Catalyst the Reapers seem to be acting entirely of their own volition.

We can't tell? Allowing organics to develop mass effect technology is dangerous, and of no particular use since the Reapers are quite capable of seeding intelligent organics on new planets rather than letting them develop the technology to do it themselves.. Waiting 50,000 years between harvests and then exterminating everything is inefficient.  I suppose it's possible that the Reapers just aren't all that smart and never thought of anything better than slash-and-burn agriculture, but the Goa'uld operation is much more sensible.

Since we dont know the terms of what they need nor do we know what they really want.
We cant tell if its inefficient or not.

We cant tell if they are smart of not. because we may not seeing the entire plan.

Thinking that those responsibile for a millions of years cycle are stupid, is wishful thinking. it can lead to dangerous assumptions such as, this will work because they are stupid... they left the beam open because they are incompetetnt... right:wizard:

[Erez Kristal]

CronoDragoon wrote...

erezike wrote...
]  i had, but it seems to me that every time i try to explain to you the difference between facts and opinions i hit a brick wall.

No, you haven't. Use the same formal logic structure that I used so that I can understand your argument. Otherwise I'm left to believe that without any evidence you are merely asserting that there is a greater than 0% chance that the Catalyst is lying. Is that really your argument?

I guess it falls down to understand of tactics which you seem to lack.

This is rich. So when Commander Erezike retreats from a battle and has to explain it later on to an Admiral, he's going to say, "Sometimes in war it is beneficial to retreat" despite the fact that this doesn't explain why you chose to retreat from this particular battle.

Last man standing - the tactic applied when a few forces are struggling one another for the spoils. in our case its the reapers, the leviathans and galactic races.

And?

the benefits of lying - when you lie to a different person or party you can lead them to do things that will benefit your goals, goals which you wouldnt have been able to achieve otherwise.

Still speaking in broad terms. Please show how the Leviathans lying to Shepard about the Catalyst's purpose improves their standing.

In our case- the catalyst may lead shepard to believe he has the power to make the choice that will determine the fate of the galaxy. when in reality shepard is but a puppet in the catalyst game.  this will explains why the beam is left open. why there is little ressitance to face shepard as he makes his way inside the citadel. why the captial ship leaves mysteriously. why shepard survive the laser hit, why shepard is elvated up the elvator and why the catalyst explains shepard the choices he has.

This makes no logical sense considering the Crucible is destroyed if Shepard waits too long to make a choice.

I do not persume to know if the catalyst is lying or not. these are but the mere benefits of lying to the catalyst.

If the Catalyst can change its programming, then why does it need to do all of this to get Shepard to choose?

as i said, a brick wall.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

it seems that we agree that both of what we say are just opinions.
As for the catalyst following its first mandate.
It may or may not be doing so because:
The catalyst may be claiming to do the good job of protecting organics from synthetics in order to gain positive attidue and support. just like terrorists often claim themselves to be freedom fighters.
Sometimes they believe themselves to be freedom fighters. however in other instances they say they are freedom fighters when infact they are only doing it for the money.

The catalyst may claim to be protecting organics, but it could be that the catalyst is only doing what it is doing for the catalyst survival and preferences. we will never know.


The leviathan lying benefits - through lying the leviathans could prevent power from the galaxy and return to rule it once the harvest is over.

Allied countries lie to one another all the time, even during the risk of losing a war.

Says the person that has not presented a single valid fact in his entire arguement. This whole time, you have failed to provide any form of structured responce to stated facts. What you say may be opinion, but what I've said has been taken from stated in-game facts.

It's a machine. It doesn't care about how people see it - it's got enough power in the galaxy to not need to give a damn about it, even if it did have the capability to care. Which it doesn't since it lacks emotions.
The Catalyst doesn't have those material wants or needs. It's not applcible to any of the factors you mentioned. Psychology doesn't apply to something that doesn't have any emotions to reason with.

Um.... yeah, we DO know. Because it's creators told us so. The Leviathans straight-up tell you that the Catalyst has not deviated from it's original mandate. That there "was no mistake" in it's logic or flaw in it's actions. The only thing was that it took a path they didn't anticipate. A route they didn't know existed. They tell us straight-up that the Catalyst only cares about it's mandate -- it could care less about it's personal survival as long as it's task is acomplished. Just like any machine loyal to it's programming.

Dude, there are barely any of them left. And the majority of their indoctrination artifacts get used against the Reapers. What the hell does lying get them at this stage of the game? We know where they live - there's nothing they can do anymore.

Not without reason. Which the Catalyst lacks. It literally has no reason to lie.

your naive way of thinking and misunderstanding of the lore is what creates the large barrier between our arguments. there is no further point to continuing this. I will use one quote to summerize it up.


"As soon as the turians secure the station, they begin looking for prisoners, as requested by Kahlee. They only find one: the Reapers, using Grayson as a puppet, persuades the turians that he had been experimented on with red sand and that they should help him. They agree, and bring him aboard their shuttle. As per their reputation, the Reapers attack and kill all the turians aboard the shuttle.":police:

Modifié par erezike, 27 juillet 2013 - 10:54 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

it seems that we agree that both of what we say are just opinions.
As for the catalyst following its first mandate.
It may or may not be doing so because:
The catalyst may be claiming to do the good job of protecting organics from synthetics in order to gain positive attidue and support. just like terrorists often claim themselves to be freedom fighters.
Sometimes they believe themselves to be freedom fighters. however in other instances they say they are freedom fighters when infact they are only doing it for the money.

The catalyst may claim to be protecting organics, but it could be that the catalyst is only doing what it is doing for the catalyst survival and preferences. we will never know.


The leviathan lying benefits - through lying the leviathans could prevent power from the galaxy and return to rule it once the harvest is over.

Allied countries lie to one another all the time, even during the risk of losing a war.

Says the person that has not presented a single valid fact in his entire arguement. This whole time, you have failed to provide any form of structured responce to stated facts. What you say may be opinion, but what I've said has been taken from stated in-game facts.

It's a machine. It doesn't care about how people see it - it's got enough power in the galaxy to not need to give a damn about it, even if it did have the capability to care. Which it doesn't since it lacks emotions.
The Catalyst doesn't have those material wants or needs. It's not applcible to any of the factors you mentioned. Psychology doesn't apply to something that doesn't have any emotions to reason with.

Um.... yeah, we DO know. Because it's creators told us so. The Leviathans straight-up tell you that the Catalyst has not deviated from it's original mandate. That there "was no mistake" in it's logic or flaw in it's actions. The only thing was that it took a path they didn't anticipate. A route they didn't know existed. They tell us straight-up that the Catalyst only cares about it's mandate -- it could care less about it's personal survival as long as it's task is acomplished. Just like any machine loyal to it's programming.

Dude, there are barely any of them left. And the majority of their indoctrination artifacts get used against the Reapers. What the hell does lying get them at this stage of the game? We know where they live - there's nothing they can do anymore.

Not without reason. Which the Catalyst lacks. It literally has no reason to lie.

your naive way of thinking and misunderstanding of the lore is what creates the large barrier between our arguments. there is no further point to continuing this. I will use one quote to summerize it up.


"As soon as the turians secure the station, they begin looking for prisoners, as requested by Kahlee. They only find one: the Reapers, using Grayson as a puppet, persuades the turians that he had been experimented on with red sand and that they should help him. They agree, and bring him aboard their shuttle. As per their reputation, the Reapers attack and kill all the turians aboard the shuttle.":police:

WRONG! Once again, YOU  are the one that misinterperted the Lore.
According to the events that followed this, the Council DISCREDITED Grayson as being under the ilfluence of the Reapers. They stated that if Cerberus could revive Shepard from the dead, then Grayson's implants would shurly not be beyond their capabilitiues. Anderson had Grayson'd body presented in the Council Chambers, but they still didn't believe it was the work of the Reapers given the technological breakthroughs that Cerberus matserminded before:police:
The Wiki discription describes what the Reader knows - NOT what the Council or rest of the galaxy knows. How the hell did you get the two confussed?

So... all that quote did was prove that, since it was from a reader perspective, NOT an in-universe perspective:pinched:, you have zero comprehension of the lore.
Like I didn't know that already.

So, how about you drop the "holier then thou" attitude, because you just majorly discredited yourself with that quote, and give me a valid responce to the points I put up?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 juillet 2013 - 09:52 .