748 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

Is your argument that Destroy/Control won't do anything because the Catalyst doesn't want you to pick them? And that the Crucible can't do anything other than Synthesis despite the Catalyst's claims? If so, I'd argue that there's nothing to lose by giving them a shot. A shell game with no stakes and no prize? I'll have a go.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

If the Catalyst really wanted to lie to Shepard, there would be only two choices, synthesis or death for all. Logically, there would be absolutely no reason for it to both lie and give you 3 separate choices at all. Why waste the time? Why bother with the risk? Obviously if it was lying, it presumably favors only one outcome, so there's no point in having so many options if it was just yanking your chain. Now, if I was standing there, I'd wonder what the hell was going on, and be suspect of everything it says, the choices it gives, and its motives, but the more I think about it, the less reason I have to think that it's just blowing smoke for some unknown outcome, otherwise it would simplify and leave little room for error. 

Sweet watersliding Jebus.

An exellent question Kaisershep.
The answer lies in the illusion of choice. all this time shepard was led to think the conflict was between control and destroy. both had their merits, yet both had their weakness. 
When presenting a third option. the catalyst increased the chances of compromise on shepard part.
Remember, the main goal was for shepard to willingly jump into the beam. if shepard was to believe that destroy was opposite to synthesis. shepard and the player suspicion would have grown.
by presenting this illusion of choice and acting in a native way. these are your options this is what will happen. you are free to choose what you like. the catalyst not only gained sympathy from shepard. it also gained shepard trust.

[Erez Kristal]

Indy_S wrote...

Is your argument that Destroy/Control won't do anything because the Catalyst doesn't want you to pick them? And that the Crucible can't do anything other than Synthesis despite the Catalyst's claims? If so, I'd argue that there's nothing to lose by giving them a shot. A shell game with no stakes and no prize? I'll have a go.

you can lose your life and destroy the crucible you worked hard to build in the process, refusing will leave you with better chances of survival and of foiling the reapers plans. which is why the catalyst is so mad at you if you refuse... 

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:19 .

[Indy_S]

erezike wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Is your argument that Destroy/Control won't do anything because the Catalyst doesn't want you to pick them? And that the Crucible can't do anything other than Synthesis despite the Catalyst's claims? If so, I'd argue that there's nothing to lose by giving them a shot. A shell game with no stakes and no prize? I'll have a go.

you can lose your life and destroy the crucible you worked hard to build in the process, refusing will leave you with better chances of survival and of foiling the reapers plans. which is why the catalyst is so mad at you if you refuse... 

But the Crucible doesn't do anything so again, we lose nothing. And at that point, Shepard has a pistol and a chest wound making me think her contributions to the war effort aren't going to amount to much from that point on.

[Sir DeLoria]

There's nothing wrong with Destroy. Reapers die, Geth die and no one cares about EDI. Sheploo survives and everyone lived happily ever after.

[Astartes Marine]

Ugh, this thread for the most part disgusts me.  Especially that one that would sacrifice the entire human race just to save some blue bimbos.  <_<


Refuse is not a logical choice.  The sheer military power to defeat the Reapers is simply not available despite uniting every race possible.  It's simply not possible to beat them in a straight up slugging match.
Synthesis...your mileage may vary.  That one's been discussed to death in Seival's thread.
To me both Destroy and Control are logical and viable options.  Both allow the galaxy to rebuild, both end the Reaper threat (albeit in different ways) and both do not violate every sentient being in the galaxy (the never specified fate of the Geth in Destroy post-EC notwithstanding).  I currently and for some time now feel that Control is the option that is optimal for the greater good of all, there is no sacrifice of the artificial life (Geth), the Reapers can be utilized to repair all the damage they caused and destroyed later after they've fixed all they can, and the galaxy will be that much stronger in the face of the looming threat of the Leviathans.

That little thing at the end there is what sealed the deal for me, even after Destroy (or Refuse if it wasn't a "****** off" from the developers) the galaxy will be in shambles at which time it would be ripe for the Leviathans to plant their devices and enthrall certain individuals and gradually gain power for an inevitable conflict so they can once again be the apex species dominating over all. 
In control, the galaxy is still in shambles but has a better chance at quicker recovery with a fleet of sentient ships who built the Relays in the first place and still hold the collective knowledge of those that came before.  All controlled by the greatest example of the human race.

Is it arrogant?  Perhaps. 
Necessary?  From my perspective yes.

[Erez Kristal]

Indy_S wrote...

erezike wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Is your argument that Destroy/Control won't do anything because the Catalyst doesn't want you to pick them? And that the Crucible can't do anything other than Synthesis despite the Catalyst's claims? If so, I'd argue that there's nothing to lose by giving them a shot. A shell game with no stakes and no prize? I'll have a go.

you can lose your life and destroy the crucible you worked hard to build in the process, refusing will leave you with better chances of survival and of foiling the reapers plans. which is why the catalyst is so mad at you if you refuse... 

But the Crucible doesn't do anything so again, we lose nothing. And at that point, Shepard has a pistol and a chest wound making me think her contributions to the war effort aren't going to amount to much from that point on.

The citadel arms are now open. the normandy can fly in for extraction. shepard will live to fight another day.
While. they are there the galaxy can also destroy the citadel, it will give them an edge for the war against the reapers.

As for if the crucible does or doesnt do anything. this is why its a leap of faith. and the leap of faith is smaller if you do something that benefit your enemy.
You enemy has no intrests in helping you win, because the reapers could just stop fighting and fly away. but they continue the fighting even during the conversation. which means they are hostile towards you. which means there is no sense in them offering you the quick win tube destroying button or an override. 

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:36 .

[Erez Kristal]

Necanor wrote...

There's nothing wrong with Destroy. Reapers die, Geth die and no one cares about EDI. Sheploo survives and everyone lived happily ever after.

Astartes Marine wrote...

Ugh, this thread for the most part disgusts me.  Especially that one that would sacrifice the entire human race just to save some blue bimbos.  <_<


Refuse is not a logical choice.  The sheer military power to defeat the Reapers is simply not available despite uniting every race possible.  It's simply not possible to beat them in a straight up slugging match.
Synthesis...your mileage may vary.  That one's been discussed to death in Seival's thread.
To me both Destroy and Control are logical and viable options.  Both allow the galaxy to rebuild, both end the Reaper threat (albeit in different ways) and both do not violate every sentient being in the galaxy (the never specified fate of the Geth in Destroy post-EC notwithstanding).  I currently and for some time now feel that Control is the option that is optimal for the greater good of all, there is no sacrifice of the artificial life (Geth), the Reapers can be utilized to repair all the damage they caused and destroyed later after they've fixed all they can, and the galaxy will be that much stronger in the face of the looming threat of the Leviathans.

That little thing at the end there is what sealed the deal for me, even after Destroy (or Refuse if it wasn't a "****** off" from the developers) the galaxy will be in shambles at which time it would be ripe for the Leviathans to plant their devices and enthrall certain individuals and gradually gain power for an inevitable conflict so they can once again be the apex species dominating over all. 
In control, the galaxy is still in shambles but has a better chance at quicker recovery with a fleet of sentient ships who built the Relays in the first place and still hold the collective knowledge of those that came before.  All controlled by the greatest example of the human race.

Is it arrogant?  Perhaps. 
Necessary?  From my perspective yes.

I never wrote that destroy or control arent good options, i myself would much rather the reapers destroyed through a magical beam or to prevent the sacrifice of allies and have a peace enforcing force.
 i wrote it make no sense for the catalyst to offer you these choice nor would it make sense that shooting a tube will activate the crucible or that you need to sacrifice yourself in order to control the reapers when even in our days all it takes is an helmet to control a flying robot. just think what they might be capable to do in the mass effect days of technology.

The viable choices are submission or fighting to the last.

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:43 .

[KaiserShep]

Astartes Marine wrote...

That little thing at the end there is what sealed the deal for me, even after Destroy (or Refuse if it wasn't a "****** off" from the developers) the galaxy will be in shambles at which time it would be ripe for the Leviathans to plant their devices and enthrall certain individuals and gradually gain power for an inevitable conflict so they can once again be the apex species dominating over all. 

The threat of the Leviathan seems massively overblown. 

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

That little thing at the end there is what sealed the deal for me, even after Destroy (or Refuse if it wasn't a "****** off" from the developers) the galaxy will be in shambles at which time it would be ripe for the Leviathans to plant their devices and enthrall certain individuals and gradually gain power for an inevitable conflict so they can once again be the apex species dominating over all. 

The threat of the Leviathan seems massively overblown. 

 its a topic for another thread

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

[/quote]erezike wrote...
I never wrote that destroy or control arent good options, i myself would much rather the reapers destroyed through a magical beam or to prevent the sacrifice of allies and have a peace enforcing force.
 i wrote it make no sense for the catalyst to offer you these choice nor would it make sense that shooting a tube will activate the crucible or that you need to sacrifice yourself in order to control the reapers when even in our days all it takes is an helmet to control a flying robot. just think what they might be capable to do in the mass effect days of technology.

The viable choices are submission or fighting to the last.



[/quote]what you fail to realize is that there are people who chose the quarians instead of the geth.The sacrifice of EDI is not even worth mentioning

Modifié par IntelligentME3Fanboy, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:02 .

[Erez Kristal]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

]what you fail to realize is that there are people who chose the quarians instead of the geth.The sacrifice of EDI is not even worth mentioning

what does this has anything to do with what i wrote? i wrote i prefered control or destroy.

Synthesis is not just about the lives of the geths and edi. 

Reply after you have read the rest of this thread real carefully and are able to speak to the point. without coming out as a straw man.

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:08 .

[Astartes Marine]

KaiserShep wrote...
The threat of the Leviathan seems massively overblown.

Anything that can kill a Reaper with relatively minor effort is something to be cautious of when their alliance with you is only one of convenience.
Add to that the fact that the one you speak with openly declares the intention of reclaiming their status once their creations the Reapers are dealt with.  Whatever the scale of the threat, they promise that they will become a threat at some point. 

erezike wrote...
 i wrote it make no sense for the catalyst to offer you these choice nor would it make sense that shooting a tube will
activate the crucible or that you need to sacrifice yourself in order to control the reapers when even in our days all it takes is an helmet to control a flying robot.

The thing is that the Catalyst probably wouldn't offer any choices originally.  When you question it about Control and express doubts it replies that it would not look forward to being replaced with Shepard but it will have no choice but to comply.  That leads me to believe that the Crucible rewrites parts of the Catalyst and overrides others, forcing it along to offer the choices.  Basically the Reaper control node had it's shackles reapplied.

erezike wrote...
The viable choices are submission or fighting to the last.

Submission to what?  The Catalyst isn't the relentless Sovereign or the twirling mustache Harbinger.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

erezike wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

]what you fail to realize is that there are people who chose the quarians instead of the geth.The sacrifice of EDI is not even worth mentioning

what does this has anything to do with what i wrote? i wrote i prefered control or destroy.

Synthesis is not just about the lives of the geths and edi. 

Reply after you have read the rest of this thread real carefully and are able to speak to the point. without coming out as a straw man.

i don't need to,im sure you're just repeating the same things over and over

[Sir DeLoria]

How to deal with Leviathan? Destroy all orbs and send their planet into the sun.

[Purge the heathens]

Leviathans are weird. They can make a man blow himself up, force Bryson's assistant to shoot him and control Ann as they please whenever she's close to a sphere. But for some reason, they can't just drive Shepard into suicide - or make his squadmates kill him. They only get into his head when he's standing directly in front of them.

[Erez Kristal]

Astartes Marine wrote...

The thing is that the Catalyst probably wouldn't offer any choices originally.  When you question it about Control and express doubts it replies that it would not look forward to being replaced with Shepard but it will have no choice but to comply.  That leads me to believe that the Crucible rewrites parts of the Catalyst and overrides others, forcing it along to offer the choices.  Basically the Reaper control node had it's shackles reapplied.

erezike wrote...
The viable choices are submission or fighting to the last.

Submission to what?  The Catalyst isn't the relentless Sovereign or the twirling mustache Harbinger.

It wouldnt offer any choices, unless the crucible is part of the reapers grandplans. it has been developed for countless cycles under the reaper nose- its a a bit farfetched. especially when the prothean vi claim the protheans were betrayed by inodcrinated reaper agents.
this is a plan that has been going on for millions of years.

The question is what is the end goal of the plan?
It is wishful thinking to think that the crucible override the catalyst and forces him to tell the truth, this could have been better clarified if shepard was able to ask more questions, but when shepard makes the attempt. the catalyst forces shepard to choose... claiming there is not time.

Submission, to integrate all life forms into reaper-slaves, the same way that saren dreamed of.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Are you related to Auld Wulf?

Your points are complete crap. Mainly because destroy and control both work.

Destroy in particular accomplishes the job rather well.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

How to deal with Leviathan? Destroy all orbs and send their planet into the sun.

That's not totally impossible... 

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

 An exellent question Kaisershep.
The answer lies in the illusion of choice. all this time shepard was led to think the conflict was between control and destroy. both had their merits, yet both had their weakness. 
When presenting a third option. the catalyst increased the chances of compromise on shepard part.
Remember, the main goal was for shepard to willingly jump into the beam. if shepard was to believe that destroy was opposite to synthesis. shepard and the player suspicion would have grown.
by presenting this illusion of choice and acting in a native way. these are your options this is what will happen. you are free to choose what you like. the catalyst not only gained sympathy from shepard. it also gained shepard trust.

Now please riddle me this OP:
What if I don't have enough war assets to unlock synthesis? Why does the Catalyst all of the sudden choose not to offer us Synthesis when we lack the sufficient amount of war assets?

Also, think about the fact that the outcome of Destroy and Control change if your war assets are severely lacking. We see this in the epilogue. Why is this the case?

I know the answers to both of my questions, but do you?

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Are you related to Auld Wulf?

Your points are complete crap. Mainly because destroy and control both work.

Destroy in particular accomplishes the job rather well.

Massively you have ignored the points i made throughout my first post and the rest of this thread.

If we meta game and take the cutscenes after shepard die at their face value, then yes they work.
But if we take a pause, and look at it from shepard point of view then we reach to the conclusion that the only logical choices are refuse and synthesis.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Now please riddle me this OP:
What if I don't have enough war assets to unlock synthesis? Why does the Catalyst all of the sudden choose not to offer us Synthesis when we lack the sufficient amount of war assets?

Also, think about the fact that the outcome of Destroy and Control change if your war assets are severely lacking. We see this in the epilogue. Why is this the case?

I know the answers to both of my questions, but do you?

If we dont have enough war assets to unlock synthesis then this cycle has failed, the reapers can only know if the crucible is ready one it is docked to the citadel. they cannot know it beforehand.
This is why they allow shepard into the citadel and to open the citadel arms.
if its not possibile to create syntehsis they prefer that shepard destroy the crucible or to have him disintegrated into the rods. 

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 02:29 .

[xlegionx]

[Erez Kristal]

xlegionx wrote...

 

Fail at responding to my arguments in an intelligent manner. 

That said, its on of those good comic pictures.

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Now please riddle me this OP:
What if I don't have enough war assets to unlock synthesis? Why does the Catalyst all of the sudden choose not to offer us Synthesis when we lack the sufficient amount of war assets?

Also, think about the fact that the outcome of Destroy and Control change if your war assets are severely lacking. We see this in the epilogue. Why is this the case?

I know the answers to both of my questions, but do you?

If we dont have enough war assets to unlock synthesis then this cycle has failed, the reapers can only know if the crucible is ready one it is docked to the citadel. they cannot know it beforehand.

Why does the cycle have failed? We still manage to succesfully doc the Crucible, we just don't have Synthesis (probably due to the damage done to the Crucible that disabled the synthesis option).

This is why they allow shepard into the citadel and to open the citadel arms.
if its not possibile to create syntehsis they prefer that shepard destroy the crucible or to have him disintegrated into the rods. 

Then why does the Catalyst still invite Shepard over to his magical place of dreams and wonders when you don't have enough war assets for Synthesis?

Even when I don't have enough war assets for Synthesis, the Catalyst still invites me up and offers me the Destory and Control options. Why?