748 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

erezike wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Now please riddle me this OP:
What if I don't have enough war assets to unlock synthesis? Why does the Catalyst all of the sudden choose not to offer us Synthesis when we lack the sufficient amount of war assets?

Also, think about the fact that the outcome of Destroy and Control change if your war assets are severely lacking. We see this in the epilogue. Why is this the case?

I know the answers to both of my questions, but do you?

If we dont have enough war assets to unlock synthesis then this cycle has failed, the reapers can only know if the crucible is ready one it is docked to the citadel. they cannot know it beforehand.

Why does the cycle have failed? We still manage to succesfully doc the Crucible, we just don't have Synthesis (probably due to the damage done to the Crucible that disabled the synthesis option).

This is why they allow shepard into the citadel and to open the citadel arms.
if its not possibile to create syntehsis they prefer that shepard destroy the crucible or to have him disintegrated into the rods. 

Then why does the Catalyst still invite Shepard over to his magical place of dreams and wonders when you don't have enough war assets for Synthesis?

Even when I don't have enough war assets for Synthesis, the Catalyst still invites me up and offers me the Destory and Control options. Why?

Failed from the catalyst eyes, the reapers left the crucible footprints and allowed this cycle to build it. however the cycle failed in producing a working crucible which allows synthesis. lack of war assests means the crucible is either 1) not complete. 2) damaged.

The catalyst invites shepard to his place of dreams when he doesnt have synthesis in order for 1) make sure shepard is dead and 2) destroy the crucible. since its not going to work in a way to serve the reapers.
When the citadel arms open its possibile for any ship to dock it and evac shepard.
The catalyst is concern. and wish to avoid it.

Shepard survival could mean heavy casulties in them war for the reapers. and they are always looking for the most efficent solution

[xlegionx]

erezike wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

-snip-

 

Fail at responding to my arguments in an intelligent manner. 

That said, its on of those good comic pictures.

Make an intelligent thread and I'll respond in an intelligent manner.

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

Failed from the catalyst eyes,

What makes you think that? The Catalyst is still friendly when you have both Control and Destroy unlocked.

Only when you screwed up so royally that there is only ONE option left (Control if you saved the Collector base, Destroy if you destroyed the Collector base) does the Catalyst sound pissed-off and annoyed.

the reapers left the crucible footprints and allowed this cycle to build it.

Says who? That doesn't even make any sense.

The catalyst invites shepard to his place of dreams when he doesnt have synthesis in order for 1) make sure shepard is dead and 2) destroy the crucible. since its not going to work in a way to serve the reapers.
When the citadel arms open its possibile for any ship to dock it and evac shepard.
The catalyst is concern. and wish to avoid it.

1) The Catalyst does not need to invite Shepard up to make sure Shepard is dead. He simply had to wait until Shepard bleeds out.

2) Again, the Catalyst does not need to invite Shepard up to do that. In fact, if you stand around long enough when you have to make an ending decision, the Crucible will automatically be destroyed by the reapers. You get a critical mission failure screen with the message "the crucible got destroyed".


So I'll ask again, an this time I want a solid and valid answer: Why does the Catalyst invite Shepard up to his place when only Control and/or Destroy are available?

[Samtheman63]

this is the stupidest thread i've ever seen

[shingara]

Its all theory craft based on beliefs of what has been seen and interpritation of what you see. But from my standpoint there is only one actual ending. This is that destroying the reapers is the only ending. Now this may go agaisnt others thinking but hear me out.

It is played out from 1-3 that shepard by hook or cruck is able to interact with the beacon without being killed. Now i have always put this down the the fact that the promethians meddled with the evolution of some humans but were destroyed by the reapers before they could fully impliment there plan. From this shepard held with in his dna aletered by the promtians tobe able todo this.

In 2 vigil states that shepard isnt indoctrinated and in 3 its also stated he isnt indoctrinated makes me feel that shepard isnt able tobe indoctrinated. I dont think shepard is alone in this and other humans are immune to indoctrination and are simply killed by the reapers and within 3 by the leviathons. A good example is the good doctor in the dlc for the leviathons because lets face it, if the leviathons and the beacons are so powerful why kill him instead of indoctronating him. Lets face it the doc was within the same danger as his assistant but he wasnt and still kept hunting the leviathons.

Now in 3 the leviathons would have if they could indoctrinated shepard but they couldnt. They could interact with him on a telepathic level but couldnt overpower them so it was on a level the same as liara can with shepard.

This is what Catalyst does, he cant indoctrinate shepard but can telepathically interact with shepard. I think the illusive man and Hackett were the only ones to ever actually get aboard. Under this understanding the illusive man was the first on and had tried to control the reapers but he wasnt strong enough and never was going tobe powerful enough as he was already indoctrinated. I think after he had tried hackett found him and confronted.

The illusive man shot hackett but not fataly and then hackett showed the illusive man he actualy was indoctrinated which prompts the illusive man to commite suicide as a last act of control over his own humanity.

Hackett then wounded destroys the citidel and dies in the process. At this point and dont think as we judge time the catalyst who has been watching and recording all this telepathically links with shepard and shows shepard all that has transpired. This is a test that the catalyst is setting shepard. It wants to see how shepard will react and what option he shall take. Within the options that the catalyst shows shepard what todo you actualy see that the illusive man who takes the option to control, it shows hackett detroying and it shows shepard doing synthesis but i feel the synthenthesis is the option the catalyst always wanted tobe taken and never the one that was taken.

You see from my standing i feel that catalyst only ever wanted one thing, to stop leviathon. To catalyst the reapers were the genie that it couldnt put back in the bottle and wasnt powerful enough to control it but didnt dare destroy it as the reapers was the lesser of two evils in the grand scheme of things. On one hand it had the reapers who would devour the advanced races and combine it within itself but and here is the key would constantly hunt down and try and destroy leviathon who it saw as the greater threat as it would enslave and destroy at will any race who wanted free will.

So in the end shepard never died nor went onto the citidel and catalyst was never actualy destroyed. And the only true battle has been everything vs leviathion.

Modifié par shingara, 13 juillet 2013 - 03:01 .

[Erez Kristal]

Samtheman63 wrote...

this is the stupidest thread i've ever seen

xlegionx wrote...


Make an intelligent thread and I'll respond in an intelligent manner.

Spam

People who lack the intelligence to debate different opinions should spend their time elsewhere. unless anyone of you trolls have something to contribute or dispute you are welcome to spend your time elsewhere.

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 03:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Arcian wrote...

None of the endings are logical.

This they're all flavors of derp.

[Purge the heathens]

No, no, I've got it all figured out. It was never about preventing the extinction of organic life or simultaneously sexing up every living being in the entire galaxy.

It was about Schells. You know, that one Salarian.

Cheating at gambling truly is an offense worthy of galactic genocide.

[Erez Kristal]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

What makes you think that? The Catalyst is still friendly when you have both Control and Destroy unlocked.

Only when you screwed up so royally that there is only ONE option left (Control if you saved the Collector base, Destroy if you destroyed the Collector base) does the Catalyst sound pissed-off and annoyed.

Says who? That doesn't even make any sense.

1) The Catalyst does not need to invite Shepard up to make sure Shepard is dead. He simply had to wait until Shepard bleeds out.

2) Again, the Catalyst does not need to invite Shepard up to do that. In fact, if you stand around long enough when you have to make an ending decision, the Crucible will automatically be destroyed by the reapers. You get a critical mission failure screen with the message "the crucible got destroyed".

the catalyst is friendly because he wants you to do what he tells you to do. he doesnt want you to refuse.
in a very low ems- the catalyst is mad because the galaxy created a very bad crucible and it could have devestating ramifactions on the citadel.

-We can only speculate as to who really created the cruicible footprints. we know through the prothean vi that the reapers knew about the crucible in the last cycle through indoctrinated agents. and that they know about it in this cycle because everyone on the citadel seem to know about it. and they have a lot of intel on whats going on in the citadel.

-shepard has already opened the citadel arms. he could still be extracted by the normandy,. this will lead to a much tougher harvest.
2) if shepard stands around long enough. the reapers fear he will figure out their scheme. and call in the normandy. so they work to destroy him.

Since it was in bioware mind to railroad shepard into making stupid decisions in mass effect 3 you cannot call in the normandy after the citadel arms have opened. even if you wanted to shoot the tube

[AlanC9]

I see this thread's moved on a bit from where we were earlier. It's now functionally equivalent to The Twilight God's IT-Con theory.

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

the catalyst is friendly because he wants you to do what he tells you to do. he doesnt want you to refuse.

Why does the Catalyst in prefer Control or Destroy if both don't really do anything at all according to your headcanon? What is the difference between Control, Destroy or Refuse from the Catalyst's perspective in your headcanon?

in a very low ems- the catalyst is mad because the galaxy created a very bad crucible and it could have devestating ramifactions on the citadel.

Then why let Shepard up and offer him the possibility to use it? That doesn't make any sense.

-We can only speculate as to who really created the cruicible footprints. we know through the prothean vi that the reapers knew about the crucible in the last cycle through indoctrinated agents. and that they know about it in this cycle because everyone on the citadel seem to know about it. and they have a lot of intel on whats going on in the citadel.

Going from that to "the reapers created the Crucible blueprints" is a pretty big leap of faith and rather far-fetched.

-shepard has already opened the citadel arms. he could still be extracted by the normandy,. this will lead to a much tougher harvest.

Why? It's only Shepard. The only thing that made Shepard special is that he had the charisma and right amount of allies to create galactic peace and bring the galaxy together to face the reapers as a united front. Shepard fulfilled his job near the end of the game. He is done now. He's no longer significant.

2) if shepard stands around long enough. the reapers fear he will figure out their scheme. and call in the normandy. so they work to destroy him.

This doesn't make any sense. You're also begging the question and avoiding my point. My point is that the Catalyst doesn't need to invite Shepard up to destroy the Crucible. The reapers are perfectly capable of doing that without him.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:01 .

[The Heretic of Time]

AlanC9 wrote...

I see this thread's moved on a bit from where we were earlier. It's now functionally equivalent to The Twilight God's IT-Con theory.

Jep, the OP is basically an IT-conner and he doesn't even realize it.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

I see this thread's moved on a bit from where we were earlier. It's now functionally equivalent to The Twilight God's IT-Con theory.

Interesting read, thanks for the mention.
There are a lot of differences however. his views on shooting the tube, synthesiss and refuse differ greatly from mine.

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:16 .

[Erez Kristal]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Why does the Catalyst in prefer Control or Destroy if both don't really do anything at all according to your headcanon? What is the difference between Control, Destroy or Refuse from the Catalyst's perspective in your headcanon?


Then why let Shepard up and offer him the possibility to use it? That doesn't make any sense.

Going from that to "the reapers created the Crucible blueprints" is a pretty big leap of faith and rather far-fetched.


Why? It's only Shepard. The only thing that made Shepard special is that he had the charisma and right amount of allies to create galactic peace and bring the galaxy together to face the reapers as a united front. Shepard fulfilled his job near the end of the game. He is done now. He's no longer significant.

This doesn't make any sense. You're also begging the question and avoiding my point. My point is that the Catalyst doesn't need to invite Shepard up to destroy the Crucible. The reapers are perfectly capable of doing that without him.

The catalyst elevate shepard and offers him the options of destroy and control in order to hasten his death.
Shepard is still the best fighter in the galaxy. he is a leader an a symbol of the ressistance. he has a lot more to give in a situation of extremly long fight against the reaper. shepard is like what is jon conner is to the terminator.

The reapers are capable of defeating the galaxy, they are looking for the most efficent ways to do it.

Its an ingame fact that the reapers have known of the crucibile for the last 50,000 years. the rest is open to interpretation. i find it odd that for a 1,000.000 years the reapers havent found about the crucible or had nothing to do with it in the first place, despite their vast range of indocrtrinated agents and the fact that every stooge on the citadel knows about it.

[Arcian]

You are all Hitler and deserve to be invaded by the red vodka monster.

GO POLAR BEARS! для Матери России!

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

Its an ingame fact that the reapers have known of the crucibile for the last 50,000 years. the rest is open to interpretation. i find it odd that for a 1,000.000 years the reapers havent found about the crucible or had nothing to do with it in the first place, despite their vast range of indocrtrinated agents and the fact that every stooge on the citadel knows about it.

The reapers knew about the Crucible for a longer time than that. They even seem to know who (probably) originally designed it (my guess is the Leviathans or one of their thrall races). The Catalyst flat out says he knew about the Crucible and destroyed it and the Crucible plans several times, yet somehow the blueprints always seem to come up from time to time again. Apperantly the organics are better at preservring and passing on their knowledge than the Catalyst initially thought.



Anyway, since this discussion has now gone from facts to pure headcanon and speculation, I'm done here. I don't care about your headcanon, speculation or interpretation of the endings.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2013 - 04:36 .

[Erez Kristal]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The reapers knew about the Crucible for a longer time than that. They even seem to know who (probably) originally designed it (my guess is the Leviathans or one of their thrall races). The Catalyst flat out says he knew about the Crucible and destroyed it and the Crucible plans several times, yet somehow the blueprints always seem to come up from time to time again. Apperantly the organics are better at preservring and passing on their knowledge than the Catalyst initially thought.

Anyway, since this discussion has now gone from facts to pure headcanon and speculation, I'm done here. I don't care about your headcanon, speculation or interpretation of the endings.

Thanks for pitching in, hanar.:happy:

[MassivelyEffective0730]

erezike wrote...

Massively you have ignored the points i made throughout my first post and the rest of this thread.

If we meta game and take the cutscenes after shepard die at their face value, then yes they work.
But if we take a pause, and look at it from shepard point of view then we reach to the conclusion that the only logical choices are refuse and synthesis.

I ignored your points because you have none.

Synthesis is logical. Ok, I'll play.

Explain to me what the "essence of who and what you are is". Explain to me how it works scientifically.

Explain to me "organic energy". Explain to me how it works scientifically.

Explain to me "final evolution of all life everywhere". Explain to me how it works scientifically.

Explain to me how the word 'synthetic' are given two definitions by the Catalyst, two definitions that aren't mutually necessarily mutually exlusive but require much more of a specific explanation in Synthesis.

Explain to me how jumping into a beam that vaporizes me causes a massive change on the fundamental building blocks of life. Explain it to me scientifically.

Explain how refuse is feasible while destroy is not.

Explain to me your definion of logic. Explain to me your definition of reasoning. Explain to me your definition of critical thinking.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that you are an IT'er? That's fine and dandy if you are, just stop saying that we're deluded for not believing in it. Or spamming threads about it.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 13 juillet 2013 - 05:16 .

[Erez Kristal]

its a bad stab in the dark. by our last posts and discussions you should know better massively. im a pro cerberus and anti me3 plotter.

Now to the real discussion.
yes synthesis is a very high fetch and very big leap of faith.
I am no scientist no do i persume to be one. i do not pretend to understand contemporary science or a millions years old science gathered by flying space jellyfish.

Which is why i never went there in my argument in the first place...

I will try explaining it from a different angle.

Tube destruction - you can shoot the tube with a sniper rifle from the safety of the normandy,
Control- you can put a helmet on in order to control robots even in our times.
Synthesis- if they wanted shepard DNA, all they needed was one his hairs.

Obviously all these crucible activation attempts are resolve around shepard sacrifice.

My main point in the argument is - The reapers want shepard to go for synthesis and do not want shepard to destroy or control them. which is why they wont simply allow control and destroy to happen. which is why they dont offer logical options of destroy and control.

Refuse- Its all about rejecting the catalyst offers and living to fight another day.

[The Heretic of Time]

erezike wrote...

I will try explaining it from a different angle.

Tube destruction - you can shoot the tube with a sniper rifle from the safety of the normandy,
Control- you can put a helmet on in order to control robots even in our times.
Synthesis- if they wanted shepard DNA, all they needed was one his hairs.

Now let me explain it from my angle (the "BioWare tried to write a compelling story but in my opinion failed" angle):

In all 3 endings, Shepard sacrifices himself (he just so happens to survive the Destroy ending, but you don't know what beforehand) for the greated good. This isn't about logic, this is about drama. Mass Effect never has been about logic, especially not ME3. It's all about the drama.

That said, let's take a look at your suggestions:


"Tube destruction - you can shoot the tube with a sniper rifle from the safety of the normandy,"

Sounds f*cking boring to me. Not to mention that Shepard was not on the Normandy at this point and in no state to call the Normandy. One could also argue that Shepard is too altruistic to risk the life of his Normandy crew to save his ass, not to mention that it's of is lowest priority right now. His only concern right now is using the Crucible and ending the cycle. Doing so with a bang (quite literally) is much more dramatic and emotionally engaging than what you suggests. It's the difference between being a hero or not being a hero (Shepard clearly being a hero in this case).


"Control- you can put a helmet on in order to control robots even in our times."

Far-fetched and boring. Not to mention that the reapers are more than just simple robots. To think a single human mind can control an entire fleet of massive AI-networks is quite hilarious indeed. Not to mention that we already tried this with a lesser robot species, and we all know how that ended (Project Overlord, anyone?).


"Synthesis- if they wanted shepard DNA, all they needed was one his hairs."

Boring. Not to mention that the Catalyst believes that Synthesis cannot be forced upon us. We (or at least one of us) needs to make the choice freely. Whether this is true, why this would be true and why the Catalyst believes this, we don't know, but that doesn't matter, the Catalyst believes this to be so, which means he would never just take one of Shepard's hairs unwillingly and throw it in the Crucible laser beam. 
Also, the Catalyst speaks of "essence" and other mumbo-jumbo space-magic bullcrap. Whatever this "essence" is, it requires Shepard's full sacrifice for it to work.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2013 - 05:42 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

erezike wrote...

its a bad stab in the dark. by our last posts and discussions you should know better massively. im a pro cerberus and anti me3 plotter.

And your point is? I feel the same about two completely separate and irrelevant topics, and I still think you have no discernable point on this topic. I re-read your OP now, and maintain my position.

Now to the real discussion.
yes synthesis is a very high fetch and very big leap of faith.
I am no scientist no do i persume to be one. i do not pretend to understand contemporary science or a millions years old science gathered by flying space jellyfish.

Which is why i never went there in my argument in the first place...

You have to go through this barrier before you call something logical. It doesn't take you being a scientist to solve these questions. A rather sparse knowledge of the scientific explanations will suffice.

You can't reasonably expect a real argument to the logical veracity to synthesis, no matter the motivation, by the issues I postulated can you? Nothing anything in the game says or does can really excuse that.

I will try explaining it from a different angle.

Tube destruction - you can shoot the tube with a sniper rifle from the safety of the normandy,
Control- you can put a helmet on in order to control robots even in our times.
Synthesis- if they wanted shepard DNA, all they needed was one his hairs.

Obviously all these crucible activation attempts are resolve around shepard sacrifice.

Moving on... I'm not even going to try with destroy. I take it you aren't knowledgeable about physics. That's all I'm going to say.

Your control situation has no context in this. At all. You literally just did a 'Seival' here. You're trying to relate two concepts that aren't even remotely relatable here, under any context or situation, especially the ones posited by the game. Please. Stop. Your illogic is hurting my brain.

And synthesis clearly requires more than just DNA. You actually make sense here (though a single hair is insufficient.) The problem is that the game literally makes no sense in its explanation that completely contradicts your own example. It requires something that doesn't exist, it's asking for something that cannot be defined by science of any kind. It's pseudo-science. Mysticism. Bull****.

My main point in the argument is - The reapers want shepard to go for synthesis and do not want shepard to destroy or control them. which is why they wont simply allow control and destroy to happen. which is why they dont offer logical options of destroy and control.

Refuse- Its all about rejecting the catalyst offers and living to fight another day.

Your main point is irrelevant to your supporting points. Your not using any credible type of support for your points that you listed. Have you taken Persuasive writing? Logical Reasoning? If you're in college, I very highly recommend those courses.

I don't see what your point is. At all. You're saying that since the Reapers want Shepard to choose synthesis, they deliberately make control and destroy look far-fetched? That be fine except that synthesis is the most far-fetched in execution and explanation. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Now let me explain it from my angle (the "BioWare tried to write a compelling story but in my opinion failed" angle):

In all 3 endings, Shepard sacrifices himself (he just so happens to survive the Destroy ending, but you don't know what beforehand) for the greated good. This isn't about logic, this is about drama. Mass Effect never has been about logic, especially not ME3. It's all about the drama.

That said, let's take a look at your suggestions:


"Tube destruction - you can shoot the tube with a sniper rifle from the safety of the normandy,"

Sounds f*cking boring to me. Not to mention that Shepard was not on the Normandy at this point and in no state to call the Normandy. One could also argue that Shepard is too altruistic to risk the life of his Normandy crew to save his ass, not to mention that it's of is lowest priority right now. His only concern right now is using the Crucible and ending the cycle. Doing so with a bang (quite literally) is much more dramatic and emotionally engaging than what you suggests. It's the difference between being a hero or not being a hero (Shepard clearly being a hero in this case).


"Control- you can put a helmet on in order to control robots even in our times."

Far-fetched and boring. Not to mention that the reapers are more than just simple robots. To think a single human mind can control an entire fleet of massive AI-networks is quite hilarious indeed. Not to mention that we already tried this with a lesser robot species, and we all know how that ended (Project Overlord, anyone?).


"Synthesis- if they wanted shepard DNA, all they needed was one his hairs."

Boring. Not to mention that the Catalyst believes that Synthesis cannot be forced upon us. We (or at least one of us) needs to make the choice freely. Whether this is true, why this would be true and why the Catalyst believes this, we don't know, but that doesn't matter, the Catalyst believes this to be so, which means he would never just take one of Shepard's hairs unwillingly and throw it in the Crucible laser beam. 
Also, the Catalyst speaks of "essence" and other mumbo-jumbo space-magic bullcrap. Whatever this "essence" is, it requires Shepard's full sacrifice for it to work.

So the Rule of Cool took over actual science, logic, and reasoning, eh?

That is one of the single largest problems of ME3 in my opinion.

[Erez Kristal]

Shepard radio was still working, he was able to talk with anderson and hackket through using his personal radio.
sacrifice is nice. but shepard was too important to throw away his life for such an action. calling the normandy( as seen in the evac scene) is a quick action. they are like dominus pizza.
(once again its bioware taking the rp from the player)

control - even if they needed shepard complete mind, it would make more sense to scan his brain like in caprica. they dont need to disintegrate shepard in order for control to work.

Synthesis - i cant explain this mumbojumbo


With all that said. i agree this was all a quest for drama by walters.
He looked for a fun way to kill shepard but forgot to think it through.

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


[/quote]

So the Rule of Cool took over actual science, logic, and reasoning, eh?

That is one of the single largest problems of ME3 in my opinion.

[/quote]

I completely agree.

The rule of cool turned into a faliure.

You can't create a serious game when the rule of cool takes priority.

Modifié par erezike, 13 juillet 2013 - 05:51 .

[ATiBotka]

Refuse is logical? That's new to me.

[Erez Kristal]

ATiBotka wrote...

Refuse is logical? That's new to me.

If you take under consideration that the one whos telling you what to do is also the master of your destruction.
Its ussualy a good advice if you are trying to win a war. to not do, what your foe wants you to do.