149 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

While this is probably a pretty broad topic, Mass Effect 3 had what I'd call a particularly strong case of misleading pre-release hype, and I see this argument come up a lot here. I encourage you to use ME3's marketing as an example if you find yourself in need of context.

There seem to be two general schools of thought attached to this issue:

The first says that consumers have a right to take developers to task for not following through on their promises, for creating a false impression of the product, and for what we regular folks call "lying". Adherents of this school of thought may or may not acknowledge that marketing seeks to capture a work in progress and sometimes false hype is really just an innocent case of "best laid plans", but all adherents acknowledge that there is a line to be crossed and that devs can and should be held responsible if they cross it.

The second school of thought takes a more cynical approach. It says if you believed the PR, you're naïve, and your disappointed expectations are your own fault. The rules that govern "regular folks" don't really apply; we are not talking about interpersonal relations, but the world of business, and businesses mislead to maximize profit. You might as well sue Herbal Essences for not giving you a shower orgasm, or Axe for not causing mobs of hot women to group tackle you.

Which of these do you hold to? (Feel free to hold to neither, but I wouldn't mind some elaboration.)

* Note edit: I don't intend "held responsible" to mean lawsuit or legal action necessarily. For the purposes of this thread, something as simple as a general fan consensus that false advertising was committed could count as the developer being "held responsible."

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 juillet 2013 - 09:32 .

[billpickles]

What is this "held responsible" concept you speak of? In today's society, I'm pretty sure that has no meaning anymore.

Seriously though, what would it look like for them to be held responsible?

[Steelcan]

Based on pre-release statements that are not just misleading, but outright lies I'd say BioWare needs to at least explain why they said what they said.

Looking at these specifically,

"Yes it is possible to roleplay an anti-Alliance Shepard" -Casey Hudson

"Saving or killing the rachni queen has a huge impact, beyond even the final battle with Reapers" -Mac Walters

"This isn't a traditional game ending where there are clearly labeled1, 2, and 3 options." -Casey Hudson

and others

I'd like them to explain why they said this. I'll be happy to accept, "we were simply building hype for our much anticipated game", but to continue to act as though these things are true is simply scummy behavior.

Modifié par Steelcan, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:53 .

[xSey]

I dont really know how you can say the marketting was misleading, depending on where you live there are alot of different advertisements and what not. The main one being 'take Earth back', that is what you accomplish in the game so its not really misleading

[o Ventus]

Well, they DID misinform people, both in personal dev statements and from company statements. For example, Casey Hudson personally said that the climax wouldn't hinge on a "Reaper off button", yet the Catalyst is, for all intents and purposes, that very thing. Likewise, the pre-release page for ME3 said that it would all conclude based on your choices made in the trilogy. That obviously didn't happen either.

Also, businesses leading to maximize profit is explicitly illegal. In the United States, a corporation is a legal business entity with similar rights as those of an individual person. Similarly, corporations can be convicted of felonies like an individual person can. Essentially, If it's illegal for a traveling salesman to falsely advertise (and it is), then it's illegal for Bioware (who are legally classified as a corporation) to do it.

[Iakus]

Everyone expects marketing to put the best face on things. But when a company has a solid reputation of delivering quality products, one expects the picture being drawn to be somewhat accurrate. I might be cynical about some companies, but Biwoare had long ago earned my trust.

Except for this case. While Bioware's marketing and promises here probably all fall in the "technically legal" category, they didn't so much stretch the truth as put it to the rack and question it about assorted crimes.

in the end, there's little we can do to hold them responsible for it. Except to let them know we remember, and won't be so easily fooled next time.

When the time comes, the question of the day will be "Why should we trust you again?"

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Well, they DID misinform people, both in personal dev statements and from company statements. For example, Casey Hudson personally said that the climax wouldn't hinge on a "Reaper off button", yet the Catalyst is, for all intents and purposes, that very thing. Likewise, the pre-release page for ME3 said that it would all conclude based on your choices made in the trilogy. That obviously didn't happen either.

Also, businesses leading to maximize profit is explicitly illegal. In the United States, a corporation is a legal business entity with similar rights as those of an individual person. Similarly, corporations can be convicted of felonies like an individual person can. Essentially, If it's illegal for a traveling salesman to falsely advertise (and it is), then it's illegal for Bioware (who are legally classified as a corporation) to do it.

But is it in Canada?  BioWare is not an American company

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Well, they DID misinform people, both in personal dev statements and from company statements. For example, Casey Hudson personally said that the climax wouldn't hinge on a "Reaper off button", yet the Catalyst is, for all intents and purposes, that very thing. Likewise, the pre-release page for ME3 said that it would all conclude based on your choices made in the trilogy. That obviously didn't happen either.

Also, businesses leading to maximize profit is explicitly illegal. In the United States, a corporation is a legal business entity with similar rights as those of an individual person. Similarly, corporations can be convicted of felonies like an individual person can. Essentially, If it's illegal for a traveling salesman to falsely advertise (and it is), then it's illegal for Bioware (who are legally classified as a corporation) to do it.

But is it in Canada?  BioWare is not an American company

It doesn't matter, considering how similar Canadian and American laws are in interpersonal business relations. Again, corporations are legally treated as individuals. If Joe the Salesman isn't allowed to legal lie, then neither can Bioware.

[o Ventus]

iakus wrote...


Except for this case. While Bioware's marketing and promises here probably all fall in the "technically legal" category, they didn't so much stretch the truth as put it to the rack and question it about assorted crimes.

It's made even funnier when the BBB (US) actually supported the claims of false advertising, while the ASA (UK) took the opposite stance.

[Nightwriter]

billpickles wrote...

What is this "held responsible" concept you speak of? In today's society, I'm pretty sure that has no meaning anymore.

Seriously though, what would it look like for them to be held responsible?

Question is basically synonymous with "is it valid to hold them responsible for misleading marketing?"

I can change the title if folks find it confusing.

Though I suppose if it is valid to hold them responsible, some form of protest would logically follow as being valid too, even if it just meant a simple fan outcry.

[VirtualSoldier27]

look at the 3 year lie that Irrational Games and Ken Levine kept up, they cut everything from the Bioshock Infinite trailers from the actual game, and made new pre-rendered trailers right before release!!!

I am not defending Bioware, but they are not the only developers guilty of false advertising. Game marketing is just like any other marketing, its not about the product, its about what will sell the product, and "Retake Earth" sounded better than the reality of ME3' endings. I certainly didn't feel like I retook anything to be honest

Modifié par VirtualSoldier27, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:09 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'll hold bioware accountable when all the make up commercials, fast food commercials, restaurant commercials, insurance commercials, car commercials, beer commercials, and political ads are held accountable.

It is that low on the totem pole of people who should be held accountable for the ads they make.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:19 .

[o Ventus]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Developers saying stupid things in interviews before the game was even finished doesn't really count as 'marketing'.

It's information coming from an official, reasonably reliable source before the consumer makes a purpose. I would say that counts as marketing.

[Nightwriter]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Developers saying stupid things in interviews before the game was even finished doesn't really count as 'advertising'.

It counts as marketing. Casey speaks in PR babble in interviews and clearly tries to sell the game in them. Part of his job. Almost feel a bit sorry for him sometimes, always gotta be walkin' that old tightrope. Skating around that many issues looks exhausting.

xSey wrote...

I dont really know how you can say the marketting was misleading, depending on where you live there are alot of different advertisements and what not. The main one being 'take Earth back', that is what you accomplish in the game so its not really misleading

The interviews and dev statements can be read online by anyone anywhere. The only barrier is language, and an interested fan who follows the pre-release news would probably be motivated to make use of translation resources.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:35 .

[frostajulie]

I hold to the first school of thought and bioware blatantly violated it with ME3. There used to be a thread which was locked that had every lie with quotes and links all in one spot listed nicely for the curious to see. Many people say they were not lies it was hype

I'm just an ordinary person but if you say something knowing it is not true that's what I would call a lie.
Lies were told and shame on them. But that ship has sailed the horse beaten to death and EA refunded me $30 so I'm good even though I am disappointed in the game.

Modifié par frostajulie, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:24 .

[spirosz]

Shouldn't fans be accountable for over hyping themselves as well?

[wolfhowwl]

frostajulie wrote...

I hold to the first school of thought and bioware blatantly violated it with ME3. There used to be a thread which was locked that had every lie with quotes and links all in one spot listed nicely for the curious to see. Many people say they were not lies it was hype

I'm just an ordinary person but if you say something knowing it is not true that's what I would call a lie.
Lies were told and shame on them. But that ship has sailed the horse beaten to death and EA refunded me $30 so I'm good even though I am disappointed in the game.

I think this is the thread you were thinking of.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10204263/1

[spirosz]

Personally though, I did over hype myself, in relation to thinking that they were going to realistically give fair treatment to the characters I preferred and you know, not do what they did with Mass Effect 3, lol. Both parties are at fault for certain actions, but I don't think either one can solely take the blame.

Modifié par spirosz, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:36 .

[Nightwriter]

spirosz wrote...

Shouldn't fans be accountable for over hyping themselves as well?

I think so. It's where the line is that's the issue. How much of their hopes were of their own making and how much were of BioWare's?

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

for real lies see Aliens:Colonial Marines

these are minor complaints about things that hardly affect your experience

[AresKeith]

Nightwriter wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Shouldn't fans be accountable for over hyping themselves as well?

I think so. It's where the line is that's the issue. How much of their hopes were of their own making and how much were of BioWare's?

Bioware themselves created variables that were probably gonna cause issues (which it did). If they had more time with all of this then MAYBE most of the things they hoped to do would've happened, IMO

[spirosz]

I guess that depends on how passionate you feel about the product and how let down you were. People tend to go off reactions first and this was no different. I know I've been in situations that I would look for others to blame but myself and this type of scenario is no different.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Nightwriter wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Shouldn't fans be accountable for over hyping themselves as well?

I think so. It's where the line is that's the issue. How much of their hopes were of their own making and how much were of BioWare's?

From what I saw post game release, a good 95% of all hyping was done by fans using out of context tweets, wild speculations which turned into rabid demands, and just overall "I want this, I want that" kind of attitude.

Before that, I have no idea. I wasn't really active much and I didn't look at any interviews or pre-game anything outside of the trailers.

[spirosz]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

for real lies see Aliens:Colonial Marines

these are minor complaints about things that hardly affect your experience

Aliens: CM is a whole different ball park.