251 réponses à ce sujet

[Geoff Pinkerton]

The best thing about the characters in Mass Effect is that you could determine their relationship with Shepard through the course of the trilogy. It wasn't so much that their personalities or dialogue changed that much but everyone's take on these relationships is different depending not just on your opinion of the characters but the particulars of your playthrough. 

When she was giving that eve of battle paragon speech in London in ME3 my FemShep wasn't just  looking at some badass squad. That squad included the love of her life (Garrus), her best friend (Liara), her surrogate little sister (Tali) and her ex-boyfriend (Kaiden).
Javik, James and EDI all had cool character arcs and a specific relationship with my Shepard too. 

Admittedly Liara is forced on players as a best friend and or lover. I didn't mind as I like the character and the best friend thing suited my Shepard but I can see where some of the hate comes from because of this.
However the romances are optional, half your squad are potential casualties by this point and the surrogate little sister thing with Tali is largely a result of choosing a colonist background and headcannoning a deceased younger sister. 

Because of the tragic colonist / sole survivor background combo my own Shepard lost  her family on Mindoir, found a new family with the Alliance only to lose them on Akuze. She began ME1 very distant and a little cold focused entirely on the job only to loosen up as the trilogy progressed and she acquired this new family .

Its incredibly soppy but I found this very moving when I got to the end of ME3. No other game has achieved anything like this which is why Mass Effect is my favourite Sci Fi ever despite the bad ending.        

[Sir DeLoria]

I hate how Liara is forced onto us. Especially during the LotSB dlc, despite Shep's clear love for Tali, Liara kept hitting on him in a terribly annoying way. She did at least acknowledge his relationship at the end of the dlc, but it got much worse in ME3. The very worst part: you can't kill her, unless you screw up with EMS. Tali can be killed three times, Liara only in one particular ending.

[Geoff Pinkerton]

I like Liara but I agree about the relationship being forced on you. Garrus and Tali are fan favourites too but you can avoid contact with them in ME2 and get them killed so you choose to engage with the characters how you wish. The writers assume a relationship/friendship with Liara.

[Ymladdych]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Actually TIM was involuntarily 'infected' with Reaper tech the same way Saren was - indirect exposure to a Husk-creating Reaper device - so he was always full of Reaper tech. He just added more on Sanctuary to try make himself able to control them... which sounds pretty stupid when I say it out loud, I admit.

Getting zapped by Reaper-tech for a second does not make one indoctrinated. It takes sustained exposure, which TIM did not have with that device. Otherwise, Arrival would lead to Shepard getting indoctrinated by Object Rho's pulse.

Indoctrinated TIM would not set up Cerberus; its primary purpose when created was to empower humanity against the unknown alien threat TIM saw visions of after touching the artifiact. He acknowledges that Commander Shepard "uncovered the truth" in ME2 (first thing he says in the game, provided you've installed Genesis DLC) -- as he is finally able to identify what that mysterious threat was. Again: he set up Cerberus to fight the Reapers. On Thessia he says: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine." Of course, everyone thinks that means he's fighting them in his head/indoctrination. It doesn't. It means Cerberus has been dedicated to that goal from the start.

If TIM were a Reaper thrall, he would not have: (1) set up Cerberus in the first place; (2) stolen Shepard's body from the Collectors; (3) launched a mission to destroy the Collectors; (4) been allowed to study how to control the Reapers.

Also, TIM's facial markings early in the game were not from Reaper-implants. You can prove that wrong through Cronos Station logs + a little common sense. The doctor warns TIM against implanting himself with Reaper-tech, but TIM assures her it will work because of Sanctuary -- which happened a long while after the beginning of ME3. And if he were already implanted with Reaper tech, why would she be worrying about the danger of implanting him at that point?

TIM implanted himself because he thought the breakthrough at Sanctuary gave him the power to control Reaper-tech and thus the Reapers. That is, he bet everything he had on the work Cerberus did at Sanctuary. And he lost.

Mmmm...sorry, but I'm with Han Shot First on this one. The lore (especially from the "Evolution" comics) is pretty clear about TIM's indoctrination arc starting long before even ME1. It also shows just how insidious the Reapers can be with their manipulations.

Evidence (any bolded emphasis is mine):

1. In the "Mass Effect: Retribution" novel, there's a cool exposition on the Reapers' indoctrination methodology when they don't want to sacrifice the victim's intelligence. Instead of exerting total control with, "Do this!", they'll use and manipulate a victim's innate emotional reactions to make him/her think their actions are a natural extension of their own free will. They take what's important to the victim (their fears, survival instinct, saving their people/loved ones, being with a love interest, etc) and twist it so the victim believes they're operating in their own interests, not for the Reapers. They'll even stimulate a victim's adrenal glands to get the desired emotional effect.

2. "Evolution" #2's cover states: "Is humanity's greatest defender even HUMAN any more?!" (The cybernetic change in his eyes indicates that, if nothing else, the artifact did somehow manage to contaminate and modify his physical form.)

3. "Evolution" #2 shows TIM having access to information he didn't obain from personal experience. (Such as fluency in the Asari language.)

4. "Evolution" #3 has the following exchange about halfway through:
   Eva: "...How do we know the relic's even in there?"
   TIM: "Oh, it's in there. It's like-"
   TIM: "-it's like I can feel it in my mind."
   Fully Huskified Ben: "Me, too."
   Fully Huskified Ben: "...You're in contact with it, too. I can tell."
   TIM: "Yes."

   ***
   Fully Huskified Ben: "There is no normal, Eva. Not any more."
   TIM: "He's right. Like I said- I can feel it, too."

5. In "Evolution" #3, after the above exchange, TIM confesses to Saren that he can read the ancient Turian glyphs (more access to external information). Even more damning, TIM admits that he can understand the communication amongst the husks - it's the reason he knows about the second artificat and how he convinces Saren to stop his brother's plan.

(Which brings me to...)

6. Saren's brother, Desolas (who was specifically shown to be indoctrinated), had planned to use the artifcacts to "uplift" the Turian race with Reaper tech so they could seize supreme control of the galaxy. (Sound familiar?)

7. At the end of the comic, TIM gives a monologue that includes the following: "Desolas was right. ... There is no magic - only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive- but for the betterment of mankind."

8. After the Collector Ship debriefing in ME2, the cinematic focused on TIM just sitting there with a disconcerting, blank expression on his face. He wasn't smoking, drinking, or even gloating; he was just staring into space like a dysfunctional robot, and the camera lingered on him doing NOTHING for a significant amount of time. Even before the ME3 reveal, that scene always caught my attention, because it made me wonder, "Did he really mean for Shepard to escape that trap?" In ME3, I got my answer: he didn't know what he wanted, because the Reapers were already manipulating him.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 15 juillet 2013 - 08:05 .

[DuskWanderer]

Geoff Pinkerton wrote...

Admittedly Liara is forced on players as a best friend and or lover. I didn't mind as I like the character and the best friend thing suited my Shepard but I can see where some of the hate comes from because of this.
However the romances are optional, half your squad are potential casualties by this point and the surrogate little sister thing with Tali is largely a result of choosing a colonist background and headcannoning a deceased younger sister. .        

I think the major problem, at least when I'm playing any Western RPG, is when my character is forced into a relationship with another  that I don't want them to be in, or they don't say the things I'm thinking. This is a significantly part of the reason why Liara is my utterly least favorite character, and why I hate Wrex so much. 

I never get the chance to tell Liara to shut up. I can ignore her as much as I want, but she keeps coming up to my cabin as if she has the run of the damn ship. When I want to invite people up to talk, I have to pick freaking Liara first, I can't just cycle them through and ignore her. 

Likewise, I never get the chance to call out Wrex for all his crap. I have to either accept his utter stupidity, or condemn his entire race. At least with Wreav, the black and white decision is treated as what it is, rather then a pretend gray area.

[DeinonSlayer]

Necanor wrote...

I hate how Liara is forced onto us. Especially during the LotSB dlc, despite Shep's clear love for Tali, Liara kept hitting on him in a terribly annoying way. She did at least acknowledge his relationship at the end of the dlc, but it got much worse in ME3. The very worst part: you can't kill her, unless you screw up with EMS. Tali can be killed three times, Liara only in one particular ending.

The funny part of that DLC was how, when the Broker throws a table at you, Shepard invariably snatches Liara out of harm's way and lets his/her ME2 LI get crushed.

To maintain RP, I learned fast not to bring whoever I was romancing in that particular playthrough along for that mission.

[David7204]

People whine about characters not being involved in the plot.

This is reality. The more a character is involved in the plot, the less freedom the player has to kill or dismiss them. And you'll either have less freedom to be rude, cruel, or selfish towards them, or have to deal with a squadmate sticking around and helping the player despite the player's horrible actions that obviously should cause them to leave but don't.

It's childishly simple. You cannot support both. Either accept that characters are going to be a part of the plot and you're going to have to deal with them, or accept that characters will be inconsequential to the story and generally not very reactive with the plot or with each other.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:22 .

[jtav]

Let's compare Shep to Hawke shall we? Anders is indisputably important to the plot. Yet the game allows me to choose my reaction to him long before the choice of whether he lives. He's certainly not forced to be Hawke's best friend. Yet BW consistently construct scebarios where Liara is Shepard's closest confidant and most important person. That decision, more than any other, should always be left to the player.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ymladdych wrote...

Mmmm...sorry, but I'm with Han Shot First on this one.

Of course you do. You're a ME fan, and ME fans tend to go by what "sounds like" it's right over what *is* right.

In that, TIM's indoctrination is the biggest offender of "sounds like"-nonsense being put ahead of lore. And sense.

Before we begin, though, please answer these questions I put forward that nobody who thinks TIM was indoctrinated since before ME2 has been able to answer (which, ofc, is because they can't, but that bears repeating anyway).

1.) TIM set up Cerberus because he feared a distant, unknown cosmic threat. What was he worried about?
2.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers have their minion steal Shepard's body from them? Seems counterproductive.
3.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did he impede the Collectors' progress against reaping humanity?
4.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did they let Cerberus study the Reapers' weaknesses to the point where they threatened to be usurped by them?

I won't address anything further 'til I get some answers to these questions.

Evidence (any bolded emphasis is mine)

1. In the "Mass Effect: Retribution" novel, there's a cool exposition on the Reapers' indoctrination methodology when they don't want to sacrifice the victim's intelligence. Instead of exerting total control with, "Do this!", they'll use and manipulate a victim's innate emotional reactions to make him/her think their actions are a natural extension of their own free will. They take what's important to the victim (their fears, survival instinct, saving their people/loved ones, being with a love interest, etc) and twist it so the victim believes they're operating in their own interests, not for the Reapers. They'll even stimulate a victim's adrenal glands to get the desired emotional effect.

This does not prove TIM was indoctrinated pre-ME2 or 3.

2. "Evolution" #2's cover states: "Is humanity's greatest defender even HUMAN any more?!" (The cybernetic change in his eyes indicates that, if nothing else, the artifact did somehow manage to contaminate and modify his physical form.)

Which is a question, not a statement. The answer may well be "yes." It likely is, too. Mac (the writer of that comic) seems to love trolling the audience with mixed-messages and making them think things that don't turn out as we expect.

3. "Evolution" #2 shows TIM having access to information he didn't obain from personal experience. (Such as fluency in the Asari language.)

Which is not a known side-effect of indoctrination. And...

4. "Evolution" #3 has the following exchange about halfway through:
   Eva: "...How do we know the relic's even in there?"
   TIM: "Oh, it's in there. It's like-"
   TIM: "-it's like I can feel it in my mind."
   Fully Huskified Ben: "Me, too."
   Fully Huskified Ben: "...You're in contact with it, too. I can tell."
   TIM: "Yes."
   ***
   Fully Huskified Ben: "There is no normal, Eva. Not any more."
   TIM: "He's right. Like I said- I can feel it, too."

5. In "Evolution" #3, after the above exchange, TIM confesses to Saren that he can read the ancient Turian glyphs (more access to external information). Even more damning, TIM admits that he can understand the communication amongst the husks - it's the reason he knows about the second artificat and how he convinces Saren to stop his brother's plan.

As I said earlier, the process must complete, because indoctrination is an all-or-nothing value.

Therein, TIM being temporarily affected by an indoctrination device means nothing.

If you're pulled away from the source of indoctrination before it sets in, you're safe. The key is sustained exposure.

We know this because Shepard has had those experiences. In Arrival, Object Rho gave Shepard the ability to see the Reapers approaching the Alpha Relay, confirming their imminent arrival. Back in the med-bay on the Normandy, Shepard reports: "no more visions." -- the device messed with his head like the Prothean beacon did.

TIM uses Reaper-tech on Shepard and Anderson at the end of ME3, taking control of their bodies (as you mentioned above as a symptom of indoctrination). Guess what? They were not indoctrinated by the encounter. Why? Because: (1) it was very short period of exposure; (2) killing TIM eliminated the source of exposure.

(Which brings me to...)

6. Saren's brother, Desolas (who was specifically shown to be indoctrinated), had planned to use the artifcacts to "uplift" the Turian race with Reaper tech so they could seize supreme control of the galaxy. (Sound familiar?)

7. At the end of the comic, TIM gives a monologue that includes the following: "Desolas was right. ... There is no magic - only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive- but for the betterment of mankind."

After the Battle of the Citadel, humans and turians salvaged Sovereign's remains to innovate new technology. It produced (1) the Thanix cannon; (2) EDI (that was TIM/Cerberus, by the way). So yes, let the record show that Desolas Arterius was absolutely right. By rejecting Clark's 3rd Law, TIM saw the light and recognized that to survive the Reapers, one must use their own tools against them. The Thanix cannon and EDI combined were instrumental to stopping the Collectors. Stopping the Reapers employed using the Citadel (their creation) against them.

Cowering from Reaper tech in fear has solved nothing. So YES, Desolas was "misguided," but still he was right.

... which is why you see a lot of people in ME3 trying to use Reaper tech to give themselves in edge in the war.

8. After the Collector Ship debriefing in ME2, the cinematic focused on TIM just sitting there with a disconcerting, blank expression on his face. He wasn't smoking, drinking, or even gloating; he was just staring into space like a dysfunctional robot, and the camera lingered on him doing NOTHING for a significant amount of time. Even before the ME3 reveal, that scene always caught my attention, because it made me wonder, "Did he really mean for Shepard to escape that trap?"

You gotta be kidding...

JD from Scrubs looks off into space all the time. It's part of his character. All it means is that he's in deep thought, which is pretty normal human behavior. Maybe TIM was comtemplating the things that just happened with the mission??

Sometimes a river is just a river, but leave it to ME fans to read into a simple stare as "ehrmigahd, he indoc'd."

In ME3, I got my answer: he didn't know what he wanted, because the Reapers were already manipulating him.

So those wiley Reapers had TIM: (1) Steal Shepard's body from them; (2) bring him back to life to fight them to the tune of billions of credits (bankrupting their thrall TIM); (3) send him into death traps because they later decide they want him dead again anyway.

If it's true that TIM was indoctrinated since ME:E, then BioWare forgot their own lore, because of the blatant inconsistency it creates with ME2 and even much of ME3. More likely, though, TIM was not indoctrinated in ME:E just slightly affected. No, fanbase, indoctrination is not the answer to every Reaper plot event (IT rings a bell). Try again.

[Steelcan]

@jtav, he doesnt play DA

[Ymladdych]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Of course you do. You're a ME fan, and ME fans tend to go by what "sounds like" it's right over what *is* right.

In that, TIM's indoctrination is the biggest offender of "sounds like"-nonsense being put ahead of lore. And sense.

Before we begin, though, please answer these questions I put forward that nobody who thinks TIM was indoctrinated since before ME2 has been able to answer (which, ofc, is because they can't, but that bears repeating anyway).

1.) TIM set up Cerberus because he feared a distant, unknown cosmic threat. What was he worried about?
2.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers have their minion steal Shepard's body from them? Seems counterproductive.
3.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did he impede the Collectors' progress against reaping humanity?
4.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did they let Cerberus study the Reapers' weaknesses to the point where they threatened to be usurped by them?

I won't address anything further 'til I get some answers to these questions.

Is there a point to answering these questions? Given that you're disputing indoctrination lore directly cited from official sources, I don't see how a speculative response from me will make any difference in your mindset. (Which, for the record, amounts to, "Because I can't think of a reasonable explanation, a reasonable explanation can't possibly exist.")

But I'll humor you.

One simple possibility: TIM's willpower was such that it took years for them to whittle it down. Even at the end, when he's fully implanted with their tech, Shepard can persuade him to suicide against the Reaper's wishes.

Another simple possibility: The Reapers could've exerted more control over him sooner, but they wanted to keep him as functional (and intelligent) as possible, for as long as possible, and it almost backfired on them.

This does not prove TIM was indoctrinated pre-ME2 or 3.

No, but it shows that your strict version of the Reapers' indoctrination methodology isn't true across the board. It also supports the second possible explanation I gave in response to your questions as to "why?" TIM seemingly acted in opposition to the Reapers.

Which is a question, not a statement. The answer may well be "yes." It likely is, too. Mac (the writer of that comic) seems to love trolling the audience with mixed-messages and making them think things that don't turn out as we expect.

Okay, so because "yes" "sounds right to you," you deem that there's no point to the question beyond trolling? That's convenient. Well, except that the comic indicates that the question, while sensational, has a relevant point. The cybernetic modification to TIM's eyes shows that the artifact physically modified his person. His access to Reaper information shows a cognitive modification. Both should raise a question: how much did the artifact change him?

Which is not a known side-effect of indoctrination. And...

Two things. One, my point shows that TIM had a direct, mental link to the Reapers. Two, you're incorrect; it *is*, an established side-effect of indoctrination.

Reference 1: The derelict Reaper in ME2. Remember how the vids showed Cerberus crew sharing their memories? The two guys who recalled the same wedding day...remember them?

Reference 2: "Retribution" page 158 (under Reaper control, Grayson has just killed a Turian crew and commandeered their ship)
   "Grayson was an experienced pilot, but he had never been trained on a Turian vessel. Alone, he probably could have fumbled through the process, but the Reapers moved with precision and certainty. They had an intimate knowledge of turian technology, and he could think of only one reasonable explanation.
   The Reapers were gathering knowledge about him and his environment, recording everything they came into contact with. [...] It wasn't unreasonable to assume they shared whatever information they collected with others of their kind. Following this train of thought, if the Reapers had ever possessed a Turian in the past for a long period of time, they could have learned virtually everything there was to know about that species. And now they were using Grayson to learn all they could about humanity."

As I said earlier, the process must complete, because indoctrination is an all-or-nothing value.

Therein, TIM being temporarily affected by an indoctrination device means nothing.

If you're pulled away from the source of indoctrination before it sets in, you're safe. The key is sustained exposure.

We know this because Shepard has had those experiences. In Arrival, Object Rho gave Shepard the ability to see the Reapers approaching the Alpha Relay, confirming their imminent arrival. Back in the med-bay on the Normandy, Shepard reports: "no more visions." -- the device messed with his head like the Prothean beacon did.

TIM uses Reaper-tech on Shepard and Anderson at the end of ME3, taking control of their bodies (as you mentioned above as a symptom of indoctrination). Guess what? They were not indoctrinated by the encounter. Why? Because: (1) it was very short period of exposure; (2) killing TIM eliminated the source of exposure.

You're making several assumptions and ignoring some significant points:

1. Indoctrination is *not* simply an all-or-nothing value. As the major cases of indoctrination show (Benezia, TIM, Saren, and especially Grayson), the Reapers can have a direct connection to someone's mind, with or without implants, but the victim may not be under their full control. A willful victim can resist harder and longer, so they have to resort to more subtle manipulations until they wear the person down. I'm sure that sustained contact with Reaper tech makes it easier for them to break a person via infrasonic sound and EM pulses, but that doesn't mean the Reapers wouldn't/couldn't get a foothold in someone's mind from one encounter.

2. You're assuming that TIM had his encounter with the artifact and that was that.
The problem? His contact with the artifact induced physical modifications to his person. His cybernetic eyes? Courtesy of the Reaper artifact. Plus, "Retribution" states that the Reapers gain a connection to indoctrination victims via quantum entanglement. If the artifact could cybernetically modify his eyes, why couldn't it manage to establish a quantum entanglement? (Apparently it does something, because TIM can access Reaper knowledge.)

3. The prothean beacons are *not* Reaper artifacts. You can't equate Shepard's experience with TIM's. One got hit by a database that transmits information; the other was smacked by an indoctrination device. Just because Shepard's visions stopped after the beacon blew doesn't mean TIM's connection to the Reapers stopped when the artifact was destroyed.

After the Battle of the Citadel, humans and turians salvaged Sovereign's remains to innovate new technology. It produced (1) the Thanix cannon; (2) EDI (that was TIM/Cerberus, by the way). So yes, let the record show that Desolas Arterius was absolutely right. By rejecting Clark's 3rd Law, TIM saw the light and recognized that to survive the Reapers, one must use their own tools against them. The Thanix cannon and EDI combined were instrumental to stopping the Collectors. Stopping the Reapers employed using the Citadel (their creation) against them.

Cowering from Reaper tech in fear has solved nothing. So YES, Desolas was "misguided," but still he was right.

... which is why you see a lot of people in ME3 trying to use Reaper tech to give themselves in edge in the war.

I don't care that characters chose to use Reaper tech. I was pointing out the common "misguidedness" of characters who ultimately proved to be indoctrinated. Why? Because in all three cases (Desolas, Saren, and TIM), it was their extreme "misguided" belief systems that gave the Reapers their psychological leverage.

You gotta be kidding...

JD from Scrubs looks off into space all the time. It's part of his character. All it means is that he's in deep thought, which is pretty normal human behavior. Maybe TIM was comtemplating the things that just happened with the mission??

Sometimes a river is just a river, but leave it to ME fans to read into a simple stare as "ehrmigahd, he indoc'd."

Wow, condescending much? JD from Scrubs has absolutely nothing to do with TIM. While it may be common for JD to stare into space, it's an extremely unique scene for TIM because it shows him devoid of his usual self-satisfaction, even within the context of having received good information...a victory. Is it necessarily proof that TIM was indoctrinated? No, of course not. But it was certainly placed there with the intent of making players question TIM's motives. It's called: foreshadowing.

So those wiley Reapers had TIM: (1) Steal Shepard's body from them; (2) bring him back to life to fight them to the tune of billions of credits (bankrupting their thrall TIM); (3) send him into death traps because they later decide they want him dead again anyway.

If it's true that TIM was indoctrinated since ME:E, then BioWare forgot their own lore, because of the blatant inconsistency it creates with ME2 and even much of ME3. More likely, though, TIM was not indoctrinated in ME:E just slightly affected. No, fanbase, indoctrination is not the answer to every Reaper plot event (IT rings a bell). Try again.

I've already addressed this...indoctrination isn't so cut and dried as you're trying to assert. It's *not* total control or nothing. It's a spectrum of influence, depending on the victim's willpower, the amount and/or type of contact with Reaper tech, and the amount of psychological pressure the Reapers choose to exert at the time. (Not even the Thorian exerted total control; it would let slaves live "normal" lives until it needed them to do something.)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[quote]Ymladdych wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...
Of course you do. You're a ME fan, and ME fans tend to go by what "sounds like" it's right over what *is* right.

In that, TIM's indoctrination is the biggest offender of "sounds like"-nonsense being put ahead of lore. And sense.

Before we begin, though, please answer these questions I put forward that nobody who thinks TIM was indoctrinated since before ME2 has been able to answer (which, ofc, is because they can't, but that bears repeating anyway).

1.) TIM set up Cerberus because he feared a distant, unknown cosmic threat. What was he worried about?
2.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers have their minion steal Shepard's body from them? Seems counterproductive.
3.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did he impede the Collectors' progress against reaping humanity?
4.) If TIM was indoctrinated, why did they let Cerberus study the Reapers' weaknesses to the point where they threatened to be usurped by them?

I won't address anything further 'til I get some answers to these questions.[/quote]
Is there a point to answering these questions? Given that you're disputing indoctrination lore directly cited from official sources, I don't see how a speculative response from me will make any difference in your mindset. (Which, for the record, amounts to, "Because I can't think of a reasonable explanation, a reasonable explanation can't possibly exist.")[/quote]

I'm not disputing lore. I'm disputing your interpretation of it, putting forward these questions to prove it's flawed.

I'm giving you a chance to prove you're right. If you can't do it, it's your problem, not mine. And by the way: I can think of a reasonable explanation. It is: TIM was not indoctrinated by the events of ME:E, and isn't until implanting himself.


[quote]One simple possibility: TIM's willpower was such that it took years for them to whittle it down. Even at the end, when he's fully implanted with their tech, Shepard can persuade him to suicide against the Reaper's wishes.

Another simple possibility: The Reapers could've exerted more control over him sooner, but they wanted to keep him as functional (and intelligent) as possible, for as long as possible, and it almost backfired on them.[/quote]

(1) "Willpower" would imply TIM is thinks he is indoctrinated or being indoctrinated and actively trying to resist it, which we can prove is not the case as he denies the Reapers are influencing him at all multiple times in ME3.

(2) It didn't "almost" backfire on them, it *did* backfire (if true). If the Reapers relaxed control enough to let TIM steal Shepard's body from them, to let him help Shepard wipe out the Collectors and stop them from creating the human Reaper, that's failure of epic proportions. And what's so important about TIM that makes losing Shepard (who is of higher priority to them than TIM is) and entire harvested colonies acceptable losses? (See how circular this notion is?)


[quote]
[quote]This does not prove TIM was indoctrinated pre-ME2 or 3.[/quote]No, but it shows that your strict version of the Reapers' indoctrination methodology isn't true across the board. It also supports the second possible explanation I gave in response to your questions as to "why?" TIM seemingly acted in opposition to the Reapers.[/quote]

It doesn't contradict anything I said, in fact. I never took issue with the mechanics of Reaper control over their thralls, just the precedent for which indoctrination takes place. TIM being enthralled since ME:E would break those precedents.


[quote]
[quote]Which is not a known side-effect of indoctrination. And...[/quote]Two things. One, my point shows that TIM had a direct, mental link to the Reapers. Two, you're incorrect; it *is*, an established side-effect of indoctrination.

Reference 1: The derelict Reaper in ME2. Remember how the vids showed Cerberus crew sharing their memories? The two guys who recalled the same wedding day...remember them?[/quote]

Well that wasn't part of your claim, initially.

And I'm pretty sure the scientists would have been restored to normal had they gotten off the derelict Reaper by that point. It's not like they were saying things like, "we need to stay here, it's where we belong." They were scared and confused, not characteristic of fargone indoctrination victims (more on that later).


[quote]Reference 2: "Retribution" page 158 (under Reaper control, Grayson has just killed a Turian crew and commandeered their ship)
   "Grayson was an experienced pilot, but he had never been trained on a Turian vessel. Alone, he probably could have fumbled through the process, but the Reapers moved with precision and certainty. They had an intimate knowledge of turian technology, and he could think of only one reasonable explanation.
   The Reapers were gathering knowledge about him and his environment, recording everything they came into contact with. [...] It wasn't unreasonable to assume they shared whatever information they collected with others of their kind. Following this train of thought, if the Reapers had ever possessed a Turian in the past for a long period of time, they could have learned virtually everything there was to know about that species. And now they were using Grayson to learn all they could about humanity."[/quote]

Glad you brought that up. If I remember correctly, Mass Effect: Retribution also narrates from the perspective from TIM just as it does Grayson here. However, where the novel clearly depicts the details of Grayson's indoctrination, TIM's perspective bears 0 similarity. No such details of outside influence exist within TIM's POV at all in this book.

If ME:E was there to clearly tell us where/when TIM get's indoctrinated, why can't/don't they confirm it with ME:R??


[quote]You're making several assumptions and ignoring some significant points:

1. Indoctrination is *not* simply an all-or-nothing value. As the major cases of indoctrination show (Benezia, TIM, Saren, and especially Grayson), the Reapers can have a direct connection to someone's mind, with or without implants, but the victim may not be under their full control. A willful victim can resist harder and longer, so they have to resort to more subtle manipulations until they wear the person down. I'm sure that sustained contact with Reaper tech makes it easier for them to break a person via infrasonic sound and EM pulses, but that doesn't mean the Reapers wouldn't/couldn't get a foothold in someone's mind from one encounter.[/quote]

Indoctrination may not have total control of you and there may be room to fight it, but you're either under their control, or you're not. It's not like: Shepard spent a two days around Object Rho, so the Reapers control 25% of his mind.

So what I mean by indoctrination as "all or nothing" is: the Reapers must achieve 100% "upload" to control you at all.


[quote]2. You're assuming that TIM had his encounter with the artifact and that was that.
The problem? His contact with the artifact induced physical modifications to his person. His cybernetic eyes? Courtesy of the Reaper artifact. Plus, "Retribution" states that the Reapers gain a connection to indoctrination victims via quantum entanglement. If the artifact could cybernetically modify his eyes, why couldn't it manage to establish a quantum entanglement? (Apparently it does something, because TIM can access Reaper knowledge.)[/quote]

I'm not convinced the eyes mean anything. Shepard has the same thing (it only shows as a renegade, however).

We haven't seen anything like the Arca Monolith device anywhere else. It is an anomaly, even among other examples of Reaper technology. In that, TIM's eyes may very well be an anamalous result of an anomalous device.

Again, Object Rho imbued Shepard and Kenson & Co. with the knowledge that the Reapers were arriving via Alpha Relay. Shepard was connected to the Reapers in that moment (and over the next two days). However, he does not leave The Project indoctrinated. It was a very brief period of time. Kenson et. el. stayed there, though, and they succumbed.

Again, time is key.


[quote]I don't care that characters chose to use Reaper tech. I was pointing out the common "misguidedness" of characters who ultimately proved to be indoctrinated. Why? Because in all three cases (Desolas, Saren, and TIM), it was their extreme "misguided" belief systems that gave the Reapers their psychological leverage.[/quote]

There is nothing extreme or misguided about TIM's conclusion at the end of the comic. He's simply rejecting Clark's 3rd Law in favor of studying and understanding their technology. And the entire point of that paragraph I wrote is this: knowing is half the battle. TIM's interest in studying Reaper tech is due in no small part because he recognizes them as a threat. As such, he set up Cerberus to study/research them and ways to take them down.


[quote]Wow, condescending much? JD from Scrubs has absolutely nothing to do with TIM. While it may be common for JD to stare into space, it's an extremely unique scene for TIM because it shows him devoid of his usual self-satisfaction, even within the context of having received good information...a victory. Is it necessarily proof that TIM was indoctrinated? No, of course not. But it was certainly placed there with the intent of making players question TIM's motives. It's called: foreshadowing.[/quote]

IT levels of analysis -- not everything is foreshadowing.

TIM is hard to read. His character is enigmatic. Case in point.

That scene has no deeper meaning to it than Miranda's ass-shots.

[Foolsfolly]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Liara is not a Mary Sue.

Exactly.

She's a creator's pet.

And man do they love to pamper her!

As for the OP's question. My opinion of Kaidan skyrocketed in ME3, less so for Ashley.

I also continued to love Wrex and Mordin. And I disagree with the poster who said that Wrex got all his character development in ME1. He evolves throughout the series. In ME1 he was just a merc who didn't want to fight for anyone or anything.

In ME3 he's charging an enemy and screaming, "I AM URDNOT WREX AND THIS IS MY PLANET!" Which is a huge growth of character from his apparence in ME1.

[DuskWanderer]

jtav wrote...

Let's compare Shep to Hawke shall we? Anders is indisputably important to the plot. Yet the game allows me to choose my reaction to him long before the choice of whether he lives. He's certainly not forced to be Hawke's best friend. Yet BW consistently construct scebarios where Liara is Shepard's closest confidant and most important person. That decision, more than any other, should always be left to the player.

Quintessially, this is what it is about. Yes, a character can be involved with the plot more than another. I'm not faulting Liara for being forced to be taken to Thessia: All party members have scenes in which they are forced (The fact that she does nothing but whine the whole time is a separate issue).

But this part is irrelevant to plot, it's about character, and relationships where the choices shaped by the player. Hell, we see relationship values shape the plot, just as Ashley and Kaidan did on Priority: Citadel II. It was shaped by my decisions, and it showed. With Liara, there are no relationship values. She is just forced as my confidant. They say she knows me the best (she doesn't), she's presented as my closest friend (she's not). I had to give her a friendly greeting on Mars when I didn't want to. She's forced on us as our best friend. If she is your best friend, it works. When she's not, it doesn't.

[o Ventus]

DuskWanderer wrote...

But this part is irrelevant to plot, it's about character, and relationships where the choices shaped by the player. Hell, we see relationship values shape the plot, just as Ashley and Kaidan did on Priority: Citadel II. It was shaped by my decisions, and it showed. With Liara, there are no relationship values. She is just forced as my confidant. They say she knows me the best (she doesn't), she's presented as my closest friend (she's not). I had to give her a friendly greeting on Mars when I didn't want to. She's forced on us as our best friend. If she is your best friend, it works. When she's not, it doesn't.

This. 

Though to be fair, it isn't a problem solely with Liara. Garrus is also canonized as one of your BFFs, as is Tali (but to a far lesser extent than Liara or Garrus).

Modifié par o Ventus, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:22 .

[Barquiel]

That's because Mass Effect doesn't have Dragon Age's approval/disapproval system. And Liara isn't even the worst offender when it comes to forced friendships...that would be Garrus.

[jtav]

Really, ME3's effort to define Shepard's internal state and allegiances is ME's greatest flaw. I understand the need to railroad the plot, but little things like the ability to be cold to Liara, snark at Hackett, and say you were happy with Cerberus in 2 would add so much to RP without actually changing the plot.

[o Ventus]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Garrus can die.

Riveting.

[Barquiel]

You can't be rude to Liara in ME3...but she is never forced as your confidant, that's simply not true. You always have a friendship path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams after Tuchanka...choose the "Let's get to business" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars...talk to her or choose "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia you can tell her that she "has to mourn later", etc...

And now compare that to Garrus. Take for example the goodbye scene in London: Your options are: "There is no Shepard without Vakarian" or "Shepard and Vakarian, storming heaven", it's also basically "your my best friend Garrus" or "your my best friend Garrus".

[CR121691]

Troughout the trilogy I felt like Garrus becaming my bro. By far my most favourite character.

[Jorji Costava]

Some more for anyone who's interested:

Liara was too darn 'fainty' (for lack of a better term) in ME1. The emphasis on her youth, her reproductive functions and her virginity made her seem far less a character than a means to cater to player fantasies. ME2 was a dramatic change for the character, but largely in a sideways rather than an upward trajectory. Out of nowhere, she's a badass information broker. The changes to her character aren't at all foreshadowed in the prior game, and occur on the basis of events that are all off-screen. Sometimes I think it would have been better to drop the Therum mission altogether and just have Shiala play the role Liara plays in the whole series (or drop Shiala and put Liara on Feros). LotSB and ME3 try to find a middle ground between the characterizations of ME1 and ME2, and is somewhat successful. Still, she's brought too much to the forefront as Shepard's confidant, and then sometimes gets sidelined for Traynor in places where she had an opportunity to exploit her particular skills.

Garrus is good times; he's funny and loyal, perhaps too loyal. If there's a problem with Garrus, it's that he has to fit the role of being Shepard's bro no matter what kind of character Shepard is. The best 'buddy' stories take two to tango; we need to have a clear sense of the unique characteristic which draw each character to the other. And the paragon resolution to Garrus' loyalty mission isn't very satisfying; Garrus overcomes his zeal for vengeance a little too quickly and easily for my tastes.

Grunt kinda bored me. Did you guys know that he's a pure Krogan? I don't know how you squeeze interest out of a character who by his very nature has no history, no backstory, no relationships, etc. This character could have easily been dropped.

Jack was probably inessential as well, but was interesting nonetheless. I could have done without Shepard's sexual healing, though. I actually think her becoming an instructor in ME3, while implausible from an in-universe perspective, was thematically fitting. The whole point of the character is that she lacked parental figures, so it makes sense she would seek to provide to be a kind of surrogate parent for others.

Miranda was a bit too much male fantasy and a few missed opportunities short of being a fully compelling character to me. I think it would have been better to emphasize that this character knows more about medicine than the ship's doctor, knows more about engineering than the engineer, is more well-versed in the classics than most professors, etc. Worse, make it so that she knows that she knows these things, and is a huge pain in the ass for that reason. Emphasize aspects of her superiority beyond the physical. Also, the whole angsting about her genetic modification ("I don't really deserve credit for what I do because it's just my genes! Woe is me!") could have been toned down significantly. For reasons already mentioned in this thread, ME3 took whatever potential she might have had and promptly flushed it down the toilet.

Wrex was pretty awesome; the key to the cynical badass is a sense of humor, and Wrex has that (as did Sten from DA:O). My favorite exchange in ME comes from Wrex, and I've quoted it multiple times on these boards already, but why not again?

Kaidan: I haven't spent much time with Krogan before, Wrex. I have to say, you're not what I expected.
Wrex: Right, because you humans have a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but all Krogan think and act exactly alike.

My only problem with Wrex is that I would have liked to get a clearer sense of how his experiences in ME1 led him to care so passionately about the future of his race, given that he had pretty much given up on them in ME1. That aside, I found Wrex to be an even better 'bro' than Garrus, because after all, things could have easily turned out otherwise on Virmire. There's a stronger sense of the characters having come a long way, to use an admittedly cliched phrase.

[DuskWanderer]

o Ventus wrote...

DuskWanderer wrote...

But this part is irrelevant to plot, it's about character, and relationships where the choices shaped by the player. Hell, we see relationship values shape the plot, just as Ashley and Kaidan did on Priority: Citadel II. It was shaped by my decisions, and it showed. With Liara, there are no relationship values. She is just forced as my confidant. They say she knows me the best (she doesn't), she's presented as my closest friend (she's not). I had to give her a friendly greeting on Mars when I didn't want to. She's forced on us as our best friend. If she is your best friend, it works. When she's not, it doesn't.

This. 

Though to be fair, it isn't a problem solely with Liara. Garrus is also canonized as one of your BFFs, as is Tali (but to a far lesser extent than Liara or Garrus).

While I agree that it is, you at least have the option to ignore Garrus and Tali if you want to. Further, at least I've found it to be one-sided on their end: They like Shepard, but Shepard can be pretty indifferent to them unless you go out of your way to sympathize.

Not with Liara. 

[DuskWanderer]

Barquiel wrote...

That's because Mass Effect doesn't have Dragon Age's approval/disapproval system. And Liara isn't even the worst offender when it comes to forced friendships...that would be Garrus.

Beg pardon, but I can't agree with this. Liara is always the one who comes to you about problems. Even if you can tell her to get to business, the fact that this is shoehorned to be her is quite grating. You must always sympathize with Liara when talking (The conversation with Javik never lets you criticize her, it's either "Back off" or "she's having a bad day"

Further, Garrus's all require prompting: You can completely ignore Garrus, you can't with Liara. 

[David7204]

You have a choice.

You can either accept that for characters to have an effect on and react realistically to the central story, they have to be present. Which means accepting 'forced' relationships, dialogue, and other content.

Or you can accept that for the freedom to kill or dismiss or ignore characters, they have to basically be completely separate from the story and almost always with each other. New Vegas is a good example of this.

You can't have both. So pick your poison.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:01 .