251 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Here's a fundamental truth: All stories have characters, and you aren't going to like every character in every story. Thinking that a storyteller is obligated to cater their story to remove any characters you don't like simply because the story is a role-playing video game is very ridiculous.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

You have a choice.

You can either accept that for characters to have an effect on and react realistically to the central story, they have to be present. Which means accepting 'forced' relationships, dialogue, and other content.

Or you can accept that for the freedom to kill or dismiss or ignore characters, they have to basically be complete separate from the story and almost always with each other. New Vegas is a good example of this.

You can't have both. So pick your poison.

Nope. DA:O managed it. You can avoid recruiting most of the cast if you so choose, eject party members, kill party members, and individually gain or lose their approval through your actions, with tangible effects on their interaction with you.

[David7204]

Do any of the party members besides Alister and Morrigan have any effect on the central plot?

[jtav]

You can send Morrigan away and you can spend the entire time belittling and insulting Al before getting him executed. After screwing over his adopted family.

[DuskWanderer]

David7204 wrote...

Here's a fundamental truth: All stories have characters, and you aren't going to like every character in every story. Thinking that a storyteller is obligated to cater their story to remove any characters you don't like simply because the story is a role-playing video game is very ridiculous.

It's true that all stories have characters, and one need not like every character in a story. However, a role-playing video game offers a lot of freedom, specifically, the freedom of choices, that traditional mediums of book, theater, or cinema, don't have. 

Further, the relationships of characters and the plot of the story are not fundamentally intertwined, particularly not in this story. The Reapers are attacking everyone, it doesn't matter how big Shepard's team is, they will fight, and affect, them all. 

Liara's character and personality are not relevant to the plot. They ceased being relevant after Benezia, and any involvement between ME1 and ME2 was nothing more than backstory. The main character's psyche, personality, and relationships, are the player's to define. We weren't forced to take Ashley or Kaidan as a lover, we weren't forced to like anyone. We could leave Zaeed to die on Zorya if we wanted to, knowingly send other folks to their deaths on a suicide.

Except Liara. Further than that, she's always presented as Shepard's closest friend. This is shoehorning, and unforgivable in a game that prides itself on choice.

[DuskWanderer]

David7204 wrote...

Do any of the party members besides Alister and Morrigan have any effect on the central plot?

Not only can you do away with either of them if you chose, but no, they truly don't. The plot is the Blight. Alistair is only relevant in Redcliffe (and it's more like flavor text, actually) and the Landsmeet. Morrigan is relevant only for the ritual. 

Alistair and Morrigan is no more relevant to the main plot than Wynne: A major player in one arc and flavor text after that. Who can be executed.

[David7204]

That doesn't make any difference. Hence me using the term 'fundamental truth.' The fact that some video games offer choices doesn't mean the player is now allowed to escape from any elements of the story they may not like.

And whether you like it or not, Liara plays a significant role, even if it's nothing more than being a mission-giver.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Do any of the party members besides Alister and Morrigan have any effect on the central plot?

Define "central plot." Wynne is a huge focus in the Circle of Magi - one of five main quests. You can refuse to recruit her or kill her outright in the course of it (and I think Morrigan can be ejected from the party there, too, if betrayed to the Templars). Leliana and Sten can both turn hostile in the course of the search for the Sacred Ashes (another main quest). Zevran will turn on you if his approval is too low at a certain part of the story (provided you didn't kill him outright the first time you encountered him). Quests are available (or not) based on who you recruit and how friendly you get with them.

Alistair is really the only "required" party member, and he might outright hate you by the end of the story. Indeed, depending on the events at the Landsmeet, he might be killed or leave the party at that point as well.

The entire cast is fluid.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:16 .

[David7204]

Just and stop and think for a moment how utterly ridiculous your demand is. A demand that characters don't do anything you might not want them doing. And what's your justification? That this a role-playing game. It's absurd.

Liara rescued Shepard. Not Ashley. Not Kaidan. Not Tali. Not Garrus. Liara. She did it. She became the Shadow Broker, regardless of how much better you might think another character would be suited for it. She was the person Shepard finds on Mars.

Look what happens in Dragon Age 2. Characters you killed are alive again. Other characters are all reduced to cameos.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:21 .

[Nole]

I agree that you shouldn't be allowed to "escape" from every event of the story just because you don't like it.

Like some people wanting the option to reject being a Grey Warden, or a Spectre, lol.

[DuskWanderer]

David7204 wrote...

Just and stop and think for a moment how utterly ridiculous your demand is. A demand that characters don't do anything you might not want them doing. And what's your justification? That this a role-playing game. It's absurd.

Liara rescued Shepard. Not Ashley. Not Kaidan. Not Tali. Not Garrus. Liara. She did it. She became the Shadow Broker, regardless of how much better you might think another character would be suited for it. She was the person Shepard finds on Mars.

You know, we're actually discussing Liara's role as "confidant to Shepard" right? That's she's forced as Shepard's best friend, a choice shoehorned in and not relevant. 

Everything else you're stating is actually completely unrelated to anything we're discussing. Those elements of the plot have nothing to do with Shepard's relationship to Liara.

[David7204]

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:24 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David, why don't you participate in the thread and give your opinion on how each character evolved instead of sniping at everyone else for a change?

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

So... this line of argument boils down to "I like Liara, and YOU SHOULD TOO"?

[David7204]

Why does anyone speak for concepts they care about?

[David7204]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

So... this line of argument boils down to "I like Liara, and YOU SHOULD TOO"?

Not in the least. That's very silly.

The point is that your demand nescessitates that massive, overwhelming chunks of meaningful characterization and plot development are stripped. Liara can't be the Broker because some people don't like Liara. Liara can't meld with Shepard because some people don't like Liara. Liara can't do anything in Mass Effect 3 because some people don't like Liara.

That extends to any character. Hackett can't do anything because some people don't like Hackett. Anderson can't do anything because some people don't like Anderson. EDI can't be a part of the Normandy because some people don't like EDI.

In other words, any mandatory content has to go. And that's absurd.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:33 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

.  Only because the writers made it so.  She could be killed off in ME2 and soneone else could easily take her place.  Someone actually competent.

[DuskWanderer]

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

That is the problem: That relationship is forced, and it shouldn't be. No other relationship in the whole damn series is forced that much. I can kick Kaidan off my ship if he cheeses me, send Garrus to his death, betray tons of people in the cruelest possible way, and force Tali to watch her people's genocide. All choices at my fingertips, if I felt like it.

Liara is given two: Lover, or best friend. No substituions, no nothing. I can't tell her shut the hell up, quit her whining, or anything. You're whining about "plot" not only runs counter to the themes of the game, where your choices have lasting consequences, but it doesn't even make mechanical sense. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, am I given choice. She's the only one, and I can't even ignore her. That's just...creator favoritism at it's finest. And bad writing to boot.

[Steelcan]

@David, play DA:O. Then you will understand. I can think of like two characters you do not have to recruit or cannot leave the party. One of them is a dog.