251 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

So... this line of argument boils down to "I like Liara, and YOU SHOULD TOO"?

Not in the least. That's very silly.

The point is that your demand nescessitates that massive, overwhelming chunks of meaningful characterization and plot development are stripped. Liara can't be the Broker because some people don't like Liara. Liara can't meld with Shepard because some people don't like Liara. Liara can't do anything in Mass Effect 3 because some people don't like Liara.

That extends to any character. Hackett can't do anything because some people don't like Hackett. Anderson can't do anything because some people don't like Anderson. EDI can't be a part of the Normandy because some people don't like EDI.

In other words, any mandatory content has to go. And that's absurd.

I advise you play DA:O, just once, and tell me what characterization re: party members was mandatory. Honestly, if one tried hard enough, I'm pretty sure you could have a final party of just one companion - and not an original party member, at that.

The game doesn't suffer for not forcing you to like someone.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:37 .

[David7204]

No, that's not a problem at all. You don't get to avoid any part of the story because you don't like it. That's completely stupid.

"I don't like Spectres, so BioWare has to make a game without forced Spectres. Stop shoving Spectres down our throats BioWare!"

"I don't like the Normandy so BioWare has to make a game without the Normandy forced. Stop shoving the Normandy down our throats BioWare!"

"I don't like Joker, so BioWare has to make a game without forced Joker. Stop shoving Joker down our throats BioWare!"

It's all the same, and it's all stupid.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:36 .

[AresKeith]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David, why don't you participate in the thread and give your opinion on how each character evolved instead of sniping at everyone else for a change?

Because he's David duh 

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

But you're wrong. They have everything to do with Liara and Shepard's relationship. Would Liara go through what she went through to save Shepard if they hated each other? No. Would they hug on Illium? No. Would Shepard support her as the Shadow Broker? No. Fight the old Broker with her? No. Recruit her to the Normandy in ME 3? No. Allow her to meld at all in ME 1? No.

But all of that happens.

So... this line of argument boils down to "I like Liara, and YOU SHOULD TOO"?

Course.

One thing I loved about DAO. My PC didn't have to be friends with anyone. Now he/she could be and it enhanced the plot but it wasn't a necessity.

Oh yeah ratings.

ME1 > ME2 > ME3

Ashley : Strongly disliked > Strongly disliked > Couldn't stand
Liara: Meh > Strongly disliked > Loathed
Garrus: Liked > Strongly Liked > Liked even more
Wrex: Liked > Strongly Liked > Same
Kaidan: Meh > Disliked > Okayish
Tali: Liked > Disliked > Meh
Miranda: N/A > Liked > Strongly liked
Jack: N/A > Despised > Disliked (not as strongly as in ME2 though).
Jacob: N/A > Meh > Disliked (screw him and that normandy is your real love comment)
Thane: N/A > Liked > Liked (little more)
Grunt: N/A > Liked > Really Liked
Joker: Liked > Really Liked > Meh
EDI: N/A > Liked > I like her outside of the romance plot
Legion: N/A > Adored > LEGION
Zaeed: N/A > Liked > Liked
Kasumi: N/A > Really liked > Same

If I forgot feelings probably stayed the same throughout or probably "Meh" status.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:47 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No, that's not a problem at all. You don't get to avoid any part of the story because you don't like it. That's completely stupid.

but you should be able to choose how your Shepard responds.  He isn't supposed to be a pre-determined character.  Some pre-service history is required of course, but things like who he likes and dislikes should not be pre-determined in a choice based RPG.

[ShepnTali]

My first real dealings with Liara was in Shadowbroker. She came off as important to Shepard, and I didn't mind one bit.


Jack is probably the biggest evolution of character to me.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No, that's not a problem at all. You don't get to avoid any part of the story because you don't like it. That's completely stupid.

but you should be able to choose how your Shepard responds.  He isn't supposed to be a pre-determined character.  Some pre-service history is required of course, but things like who he likes and dislikes should not be pre-determined in a choice based RPG.

You have a choice.

You can either give the player the option of treating characters like crap and then raise eyebrows when those characters still contribute to the story despite the abuse when any sensible person would leave.

Or you could just remove the option entirely and remove those problems at the cost of some control from the player.

Point is, giving the player the option how to respond doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:45 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

You have a choice.

You can either give the player the option of treating characters like crap and then raise eyebrows when those characters still contribute to the story despite the abuse when any sensible person would leave.

Or you could just remove the option entirely and remove those problems at the cost of some control from the player.

Point is, giving the player the option how to respond doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

Or you could *gasp* have them leave, and then when return only when the plot demands they do.  DA:O did it with Morrigan.  She can eave the party, but will come back when the plot demands she does.

[Ryzaki]

*points at DAO*

PC treats character like crap, said character reacts accordingly.

Just because you're helping someone doesn't mean you like them as a person. Especially not since both series deal with far far greater threats than "OMG you're a jerk!" to be a deciding factor when it comes to your home being destroyed by the horde.

And yeah I loved how DAO allowed you to tell everyone to GTFO save Alistair and Dog (if HN). They can still play a part in the plot (because GTFO =/= dead) and the player doesn't have to deal with the best buddies act.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

*points at DAO*

PC treats character like crap, said character reacts accordingly.

Just because you're helping someone doesn't mean you like them as a person. Especially not since both series deal with far far greater threats than "OMG you're a jerk!" to be a deciding factor when it comes to your home being destroyed by the horde.

And yeah I loved how DAO allowed you to tell everyone to GTFO save Alistair and Dog (if HN). They can still play a part in the plot (because GTFO =/= dead) and the player doesn't have to deal with the best buddies act.

He did leave.....

[David7204]

Not good enough. Duty for the job alone is not going to be near enough to carry every plot point in every story. Characters should be able to do to things out of love, friendship, honor, compassion and trust. Your demands make that impossible. Any such situation would be derided with "My character doesn't feel love/friendship/honor/compassion/trust for so-and-so!"

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:54 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Not good enough. Duty alone is not going to be near enough to carry every plot point in every story. Characters should be able to do to things out of love, friendship, honor, compassion and trust. Your demands make that impossible. Any such situation would be derided with "My character doesn't feel love/friendship/honor/compassion/trust for so-and-so!"

In DA:O, you are a complete ass to Morrigan, she leaves the party.  You miss out on her optional content, but she returns in time for her big plot moment.

Where is your problem?  You can be professional with people and they neither hate nor love you for it, where is the problem?

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*points at DAO*

PC treats character like crap, said character reacts accordingly.

Just because you're helping someone doesn't mean you like them as a person. Especially not since both series deal with far far greater threats than "OMG you're a jerk!" to be a deciding factor when it comes to your home being destroyed by the horde.

And yeah I loved how DAO allowed you to tell everyone to GTFO save Alistair and Dog (if HN). They can still play a part in the plot (because GTFO =/= dead) and the player doesn't have to deal with the best buddies act.

He did leave.....

XD you horrible person you.

I can't do that to Alistair. Even on my characters that hate him.

Mostly because the other option is Loghain.

My CE took Loghain's head off so fast. You do not sell her family and friends and expect to get away with it. Oh hell no. She spent the whole alienage plot in roaring rampage of revenge mode.

[David7204]

The problem is that all stories should not be restricted to people doing things out of being professional.Stories should have the ability to be far richer than that.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:57 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Not good enough. Duty alone is not going to be near enough to carry every plot point in every story. Characters should be able to do to things out of love, friendship, honor, compassion and trust. Your demands make that impossible. Any such situation would be derided with "My character doesn't feel love/friendship/honor/compassion/trust for so-and-so!"

Whatever rocks your boat, dude. It might change your mind if you played DA:O and had some idea what everybody else here is talking about.

[Ryzaki]

David7204 wrote...

Not good enough. Duty for the job alone is not going to be near enough to carry every plot point in every story. Characters should be able to do to things out of love, friendship, honor, compassion and trust. Your demands make that impossible. Any such situation would be derided with "My character doesn't feel love/friendship/honor/compassion/trust for so-and-so!"

LMFAO.

Oh noes. We can't have someone OPTIONALLY doing something out of love and friendship (which also benefits them).

For example the tone of the NON bugged version of Morrigan's ritual if you and her are friends/lovers vs the version if you're hostile.

No!

Or hardened Alistair marrying a warden he hates for a poltical marriage (while non hardened Alistair pretty much goes No no noooooooo).

Can't be having choices like that. NEVER. Everyone must be best friends because you NEVER help other people for your own benefit. Nope. That crap don't happen. Differences based on how characters feel about your character? Get out with that nonsense serah!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2013 - 11:59 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*points at DAO*

PC treats character like crap, said character reacts accordingly.

Just because you're helping someone doesn't mean you like them as a person. Especially not since both series deal with far far greater threats than "OMG you're a jerk!" to be a deciding factor when it comes to your home being destroyed by the horde.

And yeah I loved how DAO allowed you to tell everyone to GTFO save Alistair and Dog (if HN). They can still play a part in the plot (because GTFO =/= dead) and the player doesn't have to deal with the best buddies act.

He did leave.....

XD you horrible person you.

I can't do that to Alistair. Even on my characters that hate him.

Mostly because the other option is Loghain.

My CE took Loghain's head off so fast. You do not sell her family and friends and expect to get away with it. Oh hell no. She spent the whole alienage plot in roaring rampage of revenge mode.

Sounds like your city elf and my city elf ought to go out and get drinks.

I hear Loghain is awesome, though. Gotta play a Warden with a perspective consistent with keeping him alive sometime.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 juillet 2013 - 12:00 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

The problem is that all stories should not be restricted to people doing things out of being professional.Stories should have the ability to be far richer than that.

And they can, if you get along well through your choices more personal stuff is unlocked.  But the inverse should also hold true.

[David7204]

No. That's stupid. Being 'optional' is used as a defense to justify basically anything in a video game, and it's ridiculous.

Some content should not be optional. Some content can't be optional. Characters should be able to have motivations within the main non-optional storyline that relay on trust and compassion and friendship and love.

Despite your ridiculous strawman, nobody is claiming that people "NEVER help other people" for their own benefit. That's utterly stupid. It is, however, claiming that stories should have the option of SOMETIMES have people do things because of the qualities I listed.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*points at DAO*

PC treats character like crap, said character reacts accordingly.

Just because you're helping someone doesn't mean you like them as a person. Especially not since both series deal with far far greater threats than "OMG you're a jerk!" to be a deciding factor when it comes to your home being destroyed by the horde.

And yeah I loved how DAO allowed you to tell everyone to GTFO save Alistair and Dog (if HN). They can still play a part in the plot (because GTFO =/= dead) and the player doesn't have to deal with the best buddies act.

He did leave.....

XD you horrible person you.

I can't do that to Alistair. Even on my characters that hate him.

Mostly because the other option is Loghain.

My CE took Loghain's head off so fast. You do not sell her family and friends and expect to get away with it. Oh hell no. She spent the whole alienage plot in roaring rampage of revenge mode.

Sounds like your city elf and my city elf ought to go out and get drinks.

I hear Loghain is awesome, though. Gotta play a Warden with a perspective consistent with keeping him alive sometime.

Wasn't that more Howe's doing?

[AresKeith]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not good enough. Duty alone is not going to be near enough to carry every plot point in every story. Characters should be able to do to things out of love, friendship, honor, compassion and trust. Your demands make that impossible. Any such situation would be derided with "My character doesn't feel love/friendship/honor/compassion/trust for so-and-so!"

Whatever rocks your boat, dude. It might change your mind if you played DA:O and had some idea what everybody else here is talking about.

But that would require him to be wrong 

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

XD you horrible person you.

I can't do that to Alistair. Even on my characters that hate him.

Mostly because the other option is Loghain.

My CE took Loghain's head off so fast. You do not sell her family and friends and expect to get away with it. Oh hell no. She spent the whole alienage plot in roaring rampage of revenge mode.

Loghain > Alistair tbh

[AresKeith]

StreetMagic wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Mostly because the other option is Loghain.

My CE took Loghain's head off so fast. You do not sell her family and friends and expect to get away with it. Oh hell no. She spent the whole alienage plot in roaring rampage of revenge mode.

If you haven't done it, try Loghain first. He's awesome.

No *meme*