1093 réponses à ce sujet

[Zazzerka]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Nobody is going to announce a trilogy, and then have the protagonist die in the first game. Obviously if your main character is going to die, the most likely and appropriate time would be at the end of the whole thing, no?

Obviously, but I don't equate "end of the trilogy" with "imminent protagonist death." Frodo got to return to The Shire, after all. ME3 could've just as easily ended with Shepard standing atop a pile of bodies, which, given the high-spirited endings of the previous two, is where I thought it was headed.

I'm not sure what else to tell ya. You were wondering if people who expected fanfare were actually playing ME1 and 2, and I've just confirmed that at least one of them was. I even gave my reasoning.

[Redbelle]

StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Also, at the Jesus stuff..

This is lame. Jesus was a pacifist and rabbi. A spiritual teacher. Not a fricken space marine. There's no reason to mix these things up. It's like saying Martin Luther King Jr. and Chris Kyle are the same.

a lot of fictional heroes were inspired by, or draw parallels with Jesus. I'm not saying I like it, or thag I even believe in the crap. But its a fact nonetheless.

I find a stark difference between a pacifist's sacrifice and a soldier's sacrifice. The only commonality is sacrifice, but the latter is always going out gun's blazing. Trying to mix the two is retarded. Not clever. I don't care who tries it. The Matrix tried it too -- thought it sucked. Neo was cooler at the end of the first Matrix.

Have to agree. There is a stark difference between someone who taught through telling stories, to avoid actively getting into trouble with the religous leader's of the time who had people spiritual life in a tight fisted grip where they decided what scripture meant.

And the model of a person who is prepared to fight for what they believe in.

Jesus subverted authority in a way that allowed him to tell people that what the Pharisee's were telling people, was not entirely accuracte. If he'd just out and said that in so many words he'd have been locked up on the spot. The Jesus model of defying authority does not begin and end with sacrifice. There is so much more to it than that. There was the life, and most imortantly, there were the stories he told, that if anyone ever studies the history of that time, speak on more levels than first thought.

[Redbelle]

dreamgazer wrote...

Where's the line between mindless sensationalism and effective shock-value?

Another subjective viewpoint.

And one that if you were a developer, you would have to learn,

Good developers don't make stories in the say way that some artists throw paint at walls and see what sticks.

You need the 'vision thing' and you need to know how to get your story across.

It's a balancing act. It takes time to develop that understanding and time to consider how to bring the story out of the ether of nothingness where all stories begin.

At the very least, the ending's drew a line in the sand for future developers to take note of.

[Mcfly616]

o Ventus wrote...

As an aside, how was Shepard's death at the end of 3 foreshadowed AT ALL in 1 and 2?

nobody said it was foreshadowed. Though, one can reasonably expect something to happen whether it's directly foreshadowed or not. As I said, Shepard has been a messianic type figure from the get-go. He's also up against impossible odds facing an enemy that has never been defeated in the history of history. Throughout all three games we keep getting beat over the head with "how can we beat them" and "we'll find a way....'somehow'."


Naturally, I expected Shepard to win out in the end. Realistically, not without great cost. After all, its the Reapers. Not the Geth. Not the Collectors. Yeah, I expected Shepard to be victorious (because its a game). But I also expected the Reapers to be the death of Shepard (because its realistic considering the odds). He lived to stop them. It was going to take his life to stop them.

[Redbelle]

Mcfly616 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Kinda glad that the destroy epilogue kind of skips over that messianic sacrifice bit. This ain't the Matrix Revolutions. Too bad the stargazer is there no matter what.

I like the stargazer. But I'm definitely glad they didnt get all "literal" with the Jesus thing like Matrix Revolutions. (Neo with a glowing cross and crap). That movie was just garbage from top to bottom. There are no Matrix sequels. To me, there is only "The Matrix".

Of all the things I liked about ME3, the stargazer scene is the best......

......not because of what is said and done within the scene.

I like it because ME was the Star Wars moment of video game history and they ended it by thinking of bringing in the man who actually went into space. For all the cod philosphy and space magic that doesn't get grounded in theory or supersition, BW choose to end on the note of one man who actually went into space and knows, first hand, it is possible to seperate from the pull of the Earth.

To have him talking about the possibilities of space travel was to say that 'yes it's a fiction. But when you look out there, tell me that there isn't more to tell'.

The very end of ME spoke of possibilities and and simple love of the unknown. It was a love note to stories in their entirity. From the man who has the stories, to the child who wants to hear them

At least, that's how I choose to look at it.

Modifié par Redbelle, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:33 .

[Mcfly616]

Zazzerka wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Nobody is going to announce a trilogy, and then have the protagonist die in the first game. Obviously if your main character is going to die, the most likely and appropriate time would be at the end of the whole thing, no?

Obviously, but I don't equate "end of the trilogy" with "imminent protagonist death." Frodo got to return to The Shire, after all. ME3 could've just as easily ended with Shepard standing atop a pile of bodies, which, given the high-spirited endings of the previous two, is where I thought it was headed.

I'm not sure what else to tell ya. You were wondering if people who expected fanfare were actually playing ME1 and 2, and I've just confirmed that at least one of them was. I even gave my reasoning.

and I never said the end of a trilogy equated to such a thing. I've already explained my reasoning on why expected him to die. And it certainly isn't because it was a trilogy.

Maybe you haven't read the LotR books? The Shire is destroyed and Frodo pretty much does "die". (Metaphorically)


And Shepard does live in high EMS destroy. Breathe scene. Sorry he doesnt stand up out of the rubble for you this time.(I would've liked that too. But just because I would've liked it, doesn't mean I forget the fact that he actually lived and go on hating the ending.)

Modifié par Mcfly616, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:34 .

[o Ventus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

nobody said it was foreshadowed. Though, one can reasonably expect something to happen whether it's directly foreshadowed or not. As I said, Shepard has been a messianic type figure from the get-go. He's also up against impossible odds facing an enemy that has never been defeated in the history of history. Throughout all three games we keep getting beat over the head with "how can we beat them" and "we'll find a way....'somehow'."


Naturally, I expected Shepard to win out in the end. Realistically, not without great cost. After all, its the Reapers. Not the Geth. Not the Collectors. Yeah, I expected Shepard to be victorious (because its a game). But I also expected the Reapers to be the death of Shepard (because its realistic considering the odds). He lived to stop them. It was going to take his life to stop them.

If it wasn't foreshadowed, then how was it obvious? That's called an ass-pull. Shepard has most certainly NOT been a messianic figure from the start. 

Saying "he's gonna die at the end" with no prior narrative evidence has no substance.

[o Ventus]

StreetMagic wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

At the very least, the ending's drew a line in the sand for future developers to take note of.

Good point. That's one good thing that will come out of this.

It's just a shame that it took nearly destroying a beloved franchise to learn what seems like such an obvious lesson.

[KaiserShep]

I expected Shepard to live under certain conditions, at the very least, like ME2.

[Redbelle]

StreetMagic wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

At the very least, the ending's drew a line in the sand for future developers to take note of.

Good point. That's one good thing that will come out of this.

And the Tchunka mission.

And Rannoch.

I know Tchunka get's more air time as the best mission, but Rannoch started off with a mag walk to infiltrate a Geth ship. It may not have been actively exciting as getting shot at. But the game needs these balances of action and calm. It can't all be blast a minute action.

It's one of the reasons MGS3 had that huge ladder after the end's sniper battle. To give the gamers a chance to reflect to the liliting tune of the title credits.

For a space opera, it was one of the few times they actually went out into space. Suited for exposure and everything.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

KaiserShep wrote...

I expected Shepard to live under certain conditions, at the very least, like ME2.

If I'm being completely honest I expected Shepard to live if you actually worked for it.

But I also expected feelings of triumph, more than 2 interesting side missions, and nothing even remotely like Star Jar.

So what the hell do I know?

[Mcfly616]

o Ventus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

nobody said it was foreshadowed. Though, one can reasonably expect something to happen whether it's directly foreshadowed or not. As I said, Shepard has been a messianic type figure from the get-go. He's also up against impossible odds facing an enemy that has never been defeated in the history of history. Throughout all three games we keep getting beat over the head with "how can we beat them" and "we'll find a way....'somehow'."


Naturally, I expected Shepard to win out in the end. Realistically, not without great cost. After all, its the Reapers. Not the Geth. Not the Collectors. Yeah, I expected Shepard to be victorious (because its a game). But I also expected the Reapers to be the death of Shepard (because its realistic considering the odds). He lived to stop them. It was going to take his life to stop them.

If it wasn't foreshadowed, then how was it obvious? That's called an ass-pull. Shepard has most certainly NOT been a messianic figure from the start. 

Saying "he's gonna die at the end" with no prior narrative evidence has no substance.

umm I'm sorry but I just have to point this out, because people on this forum seem to forget that foreshadowing is a literary device. It is not a necessary one whatsoever. It is not a rule or law of writing. It is not a required element of a narrative. It is a tool. And to say that I was expecting him to pay the ultimate price is not far fetched at all. As countless strangers/ME fans have admitted they expected him to die. In fact, most of the people I know that say they didn't expect it, are the same people that bash the ending mercilessly on the BSN daily.


I think he was quite messianic from the start. Gets the visions from the beacons. All these people asking him to help them and save them. Dies and is resurrected (in case you didn't get it before, this should've beat it over your head). Gets the whole galaxy to unite. Everyone's hopes and dreams rest with him in the end. The sacrifice for everybody's future (beating it over your head again)

[Zazzerka]

Mcfly616 wrote...

and I never said the end of a trilogy equated to such a thing. I've already explained my reasoning on why expected him to die. And it certainly isn't because it was a trilogy.

Right, the Jesus thing.

My Fable character, who sprouted a friggin' halo, didn't have to sacrifice a damn thing.

Mcfly616 wrote...

In fact, most of the people I know that say they didn't expect it, are the same people that bash the ending mercilessly on the BSN daily.

'Sup.

Modifié par Zazzerka, 14 juillet 2013 - 07:52 .

[Mcfly616]

Redbelle wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Kinda glad that the destroy epilogue kind of skips over that messianic sacrifice bit. This ain't the Matrix Revolutions. Too bad the stargazer is there no matter what.

I like the stargazer. But I'm definitely glad they didnt get all "literal" with the Jesus thing like Matrix Revolutions. (Neo with a glowing cross and crap). That movie was just garbage from top to bottom. There are no Matrix sequels. To me, there is only "The Matrix".

Of all the things I liked about ME3, the stargazer scene is the best......

......not because of what is said and done within the scene.

I like it because ME was the Star Wars moment of video game history and they ended it by thinking of bringing in the man who actually went into space. For all the cod philosphy and space magic that doesn't get grounded in theory or supersition, BW choose to end on the note of one man who actually went into space and knows, first hand, it is possible to seperate from the pull of the Earth.

To have him talking about the possibilities of space travel was to say that 'yes it's a fiction. But when you look out there, tell me that there isn't more to tell'.

The very end of ME spoke of possibilities and and simple love of the unknown. It was a love note to stories in their entirity. From the man who has the stories, to the child who wants to hear them

At least, that's how I choose to look at it.

I never thought I'd read such a post on the BSN. Well said. I view it in a similar way to your perspective.

[KaiserShep]

I felt the same way about the stargazer scene at first too, but the more I thought about it, the more it irked me, and now I hate it. It no longer fits now that the EC's added an actual epilogue to each ending. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 juillet 2013 - 08:16 .

[Mcfly616]

Zazzerka wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

and I never said the end of a trilogy equated to such a thing. I've already explained my reasoning on why expected him to die. And it certainly isn't because it was a trilogy.

Right, the Jesus thing.

....or the fact that his foes are sentient starships the size of skyscrapers that have been harvesting the galaxy for a billion years and have never failed.....not once. Yeah, I'd say the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of dying.


In fact, I'm not sure what in the previous games made people expect him to live. After all, I'm stating in game facts when I say that "nobody has ever defeated the Reapers". This is something that is common knowledge after the first two games. And Shepard never faces off against the entire Reaper armada in the first two games. So, what in the first two games makes you think he'll do what no other being has been able to do and live to tell about it? His survival in the first two games, in no way foreshadows his survival in ME3. He has never faced the Harvest before


I think I have far more reason to expect him to die than expecting him to survive.

[Mcfly616]

Don't get me wrong.....I always hoped he would live. But leading up to release I just felt ominous dread. I expected him to die.

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly616 wrote...
....or the fact that his foes are sentient starships the size of skyscrapers that have been harvesting the galaxy for a billion years and have never failed.....not once. Yeah, I'd say the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of dying.


In fact, I'm not sure what in the previous games made people expect him to live. After all, I'm stating in game facts when I say that "nobody has ever defeated the Reapers". This is something that is common knowledge after the first two games. And Shepard never faces off against the entire Reaper armada in the first two games. So, what in the first two games makes you think he'll do what no other being has been able to do and live to tell about it? His survival in the first two games, in no way foreshadows his survival in ME3. He has never faced the Harvest before


I think I have far more reason to expect him to die than expecting him to survive.

I didn't see it this way. When it's said that "nobody has ever defeated the reapers", I saw this simply as "until now". Thing is, Shepard was obviously not doing any of this stuff alone. When Sovereign is defeated, it's defeated using the the Alliance and Citadel fleet.

It's been established since the beginning that the only reason Shepard can beat the odds is because he/she has plenty of allies willing to see him/her through it. This was made clear enough in the Suicide mission, where Shepard dies if both squadmates don't survive the fall after killing the reaper larva. The fact that past cycles didn't beat the reapers doesn't really matter, because we're made to expect this cycle to be completely different and break the pattern. This doesn't make me expect that Shepard will die absolutely. This only gives me the possibility of Shepard's death, but having the capacity to take steps that ensures that he/she does live to tell the tale instead. When Mass Effect 3 starts off, we get the reaper invasion, but then we get this big sudden appearance of a Prothean device that may have the power to destroy them. This is not going to be an undertaking that Shepard muscles through alone. We then get the idea that the fleets must be united to make this possible, so we're being brought right back into the same routine of Shepard amassing allies to see him/her through to the end, yet again. 

But I guess this is all moot, since Shepard can (and does) live if you take the appropriate steps to get that conclusion.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 juillet 2013 - 08:57 .

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

What about getting the beacons is messianic? He's just vicariously experiencing the Prothean's fate. It's not like he's some otherworldly angelic being getting visions. Shep isn't even Neo in the Matrix, getting advice from the Oracle. The beacon is just Prothean intel. In addition to whatever personal qualities he/she has, this puts Shepard over the edge to urge everyone to find a way to stop the Reapers. But it's not a messianic purpose. It's a panic induced purpose. It's as if Shep became a Prothean that day on Eden Prime and has a chance to warn everyone. He's Javik before the real Javik warns everyone again. And both Javik and Shep are just warriors. Nothing more.

that's your perspective. But I'll just say that just because a character shares parallels with Christ, doesnt mean they're exactly the same in every single way. After all, unlike Neo, I'm pretty sure there's no stories of Jesus have crazy orgy sex. John Constantine, John Conner, John Carter.....all messianic Jesus like figures and were written as such. Though, I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree, even though its fact that these characters were intentionally written with parallels to Jesus' story.


By the way, its just awkward to continue talking about crap I find to be completely fraudulent and ridiculous (even after being raised on it and schooled on it). But its just fact that its a common writing trope. Protagonists that relate to Jesus. Especially in sci fi.

[Zazzerka]

Mcfly616 wrote...

....or the fact that his foes are sentient starships the size of skyscrapers that have been harvesting the galaxy for a billion years and have never failed.....not once. Yeah, I'd say the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of dying.

Bro, do you even video game?

Mcfly616 wrote...

So, what in the first two games makes you think he'll do what no other being has been able to do and live to tell about it?

I've told you exactly why.

Modifié par Zazzerka, 14 juillet 2013 - 08:41 .

[TheProtheans]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Both games have their share of flaws. ME2's plot goes nowhere fast ignoring the fact that the Reapers are pressing. Only Arrival, a mediocre dlc at best deals with them directly.

ME3 screwed up in so many places I wont bother listing them all.

Yeah. I think my silly little drawing sums up the major problem with ME2 rather perfectly:

I found a more accurate view.