1093 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

I dont think ME2 is perfect. The weapon system for example. Its quite limiting. It has its flaws but because it showed arguably a larger portion of the ME universe it seemed better. Plus the character interaction and combat is better done than in ME1. Plus the characters themselves made ME2 so much fun. Zaeed, Legion, Kasumi, Samara? They are all great characters with great lines. Grunt, Tali and Garrus are just classic.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

Yet you didn't define how or why. 

And I thought it did a terrible job with the characters from the previous game. Fortunately, I don't like any of the squadmates from ME1, so I wasn't disappointed.

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

Are Skydrivers falling from Space? No

And, again, how exactly do you think that makes a difference on whether someone makes a 'gorey mess' or not?

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:08 .

[chemiclord]

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

I don't think that's the issue more than there were much more realistic ways that same thing could have done without an "unprecedented" and insanely costly procedure that for some reason doesn't even remotely draw any interest from any major party whatsoever.

One would think bringing the dead back to life would at least make someone in the Council or the Alliance go, "They did what now?  Run that by me again."  Instead of, "Oh.  Anyway, as I was saying..."

Modifié par chemiclord, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:09 .

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

Yet you didn't define how or why. 

And I thought it did a terrible job with the characters from the previous game. Fortunately, I don't like any of the squadmates from ME1, so I wasn't disappointed.

You're very clearly in the minority, aren't you? The last I checked, the DLC focused on Liara is overwhelmingly considered either the best or second best by nearly all players.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Are Skydrivers falling from Space? No

And, again, how exactly do you think that makes a difference on whether someone makes a 'gorey mess' or not?

Have you ever seen what happens when someone's parachute doesn't open? Have you ever seen what happens when someone falls from a high distance? Are you even defining gorey mess the same way as other people? 

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious. How many posts have you made whining about nobody caring about Javik being alive?

None?  Unless I'm suffering from memory loss, I don't recall ever making such a post. You sure you're not confusing me with someone else? Because honestly, I think Javik was handled rather well. The way the galaxy reacted to a living breathing prothean was how I expected it to be. it was well-written.

Cerberus brought back Shepard in very, very specific circumstances. Their methods are for all intents and purposes useless to anyone else. At least on a wide scale.

It doesn't matter what their methods are, the fact that they actually managed to preform nothing short of a miracle is something that should not go unnoticed. Yet in Mass Effect it does go unnoticed.

And how is a bringing-dead-people-back-to-life project useles to anyone else? I'm sure there are plenty of rich or important people who are willing to pay 4 billion credits to bring themselves or another person back to life. I know I would.

As for characters continually whining about the subject -  no. That's crap storytelling. Miranda tells Shepard how incredible Lazarus is. Jacob tells Shepard how incredible Lazarus is. Wilson tells Shepard how incredible Lazarus is. Contrary to what you might think, having every character whining about the same subject through the same is garbage writing, and boring.

of course that would be garbage writing and boring. it's also completel NOT what I meant or asked for.

I never said anything about "constant whining". But something similar to Deus Ex: Human Revolution (have you played that game?) would be nice.

The question is not whether the conversations happen. The question is whether such conversations are shown to the player.

If it's not shown or at the very least mentioned or suggested, it doesn't happen. Period. That's how fiction works. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:10 .

[David7204]

chemiclord wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

I don't think that's the issue more than there were much more realistic ways that same thing could have done without an "unprecedented" and insanely costly procedure that for some reason doesn't even remotely draw any interest from any major party whatsoever.

One would think bringing the dead back to life would at least make someone in the Council or the Alliance go, "They did what now?  Run that by me again."  Instead of, "Oh.  Anyway..."

If you want to imagine the Alliance and Council said exactly that, you're perfectly free to do so. There's nothing in the narrative that contradicts that.

However, having every character whining about how great Lazarus is would very quickly become incredible tedious and thus be lousy writing. So we don't do that.

The question is not whether conversations happen. The question is whether they're shown to the player.

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:11 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Still, despite all of ME2's flaws, it was the perfect opportunity to end the reaper story and leave them stranded in dark space forever and start a new story. Then Mac had to write Arrival.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

Yet you didn't define how or why. 

And I thought it did a terrible job with the characters from the previous game. Fortunately, I don't like any of the squadmates from ME1, so I wasn't disappointed.

You're very clearly in the minority, aren't you? The last I checked, the DLC focused on Liara is overwhelmingly considered either the best or second best by nearly all players.

And here is the argument from the majority fallacy. You're saying that since most people don't agree with me, I must be wrong. 

Explain to me how you're right. 

Did you stop to consider that maybe it isn't because of Liara that makes it so good? Or can you tell me objectively why everyone likes it? 

You also failed to answer my first request.

Tell me how or why ME2 does things better. Give me an actual argument.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:14 .

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Have you ever seen what happens when someone's parachute doesn't open? Have you ever seen what happens when someone falls from a high distance? Are you even defining gorey mess the same way as other people? 

Maybe you should Google instances of skydivers surviving impacts? Clearly, there's nothing even remotely close to a certainty of being turned into soup.

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:14 .

[spirosz]

https://encrypted-tb...WLq4S0hW6u7AQil

[Erez Kristal]

I support david on this thread. he speaks with my voice.
People who hate mass effect 2 need to beef up their imagination a bit more, as well as increase their practical views on life politics and history.
The game doesnt need to take you by the hand with every little thing.

In the bottom line, mass effect 2 was a fun game for most players while mass effect 3 was a fun game for some players.

[spirosz]

spirosz wrote...

https://encrypted-tb...WLq4S0hW6u7AQil

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

The main problems I have with Lazarus are two-fold. Probably.

1. It serves three purposes in one of the most heavy-handed, contrived manners possible: it kills the protagonist simply to enact a time-skip, forces him to work with a terrorist agency that may or may not have killed his entire squad in the past, and breaks his team apart so he can spend a great deal of time recruiting a new one. There are much better ways to accomplish those than taking such a drastic step.

2. Which brings me to my second point: it cheapens death. Here we have Shepard, killed and then revived from "meat and tubes." Oh, it certainly cost a lot of money and a good deal of time, but this is still the work of a handful of privately funded people. If they can do it, then what could the major governments do? And then, there's the philosophical cheapening of death. Shepard has been clinically dead for at least a few days, weeks, or even months, but does he ever stop to ponder the existential ramifications of that? Does anyone really comment on the fact that, for a while, the conscience of Shepard didn't even exist? No, the incredible implications of this technology is completely glazed over by a few jokes and exclamations of surprise.

They may have executed it nicely, but that only hides the underlying narrative issues with it.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

It did an outstanding job of introducing the new characters, setting and tone. Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus and EDI. The new Normandy. New crew. It was an outstanding intro. It did a great job with the relationships of the characters from the best game, with Liara in particular.

The Lazarus Project is also contrived and meaningless. Why did Shepard have to die for introducing Miranda, Jacob, Cerberus, EDI or the new Normandy? Having the protagonist die and then being resurrected just to introduce a bunch of new characters seems rather extreme does it not?

BioWare could easily have written something more sensical, such as the Alliance or the Council giving Shepard the order to work with Cerberus to find out what's going on behind the Omega-4 Relay. That would be been a lot less contrived and it would have made a lot more sense.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Shepard dying, I don't mind Shepard being resurrected either, I DO MIND how all of this is never really further explored in the (main) story. I'll say it again; Deus Ex: Human Revolution did something similar to the Lazarus project, yet they actually did it right.

[Cainhurst Crow]

People don't care as long as the protagonist lives in the end and get's to be with his friends and loved ones.

It is paramount over all other issues to most people.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:18 .

[David7204]

All of these complaints that Lazarus was brought up simply to 'enforce a time skip' are completely ridiculous. Lazarus is continually referenced as a source of drama between the characters. By Ashley. By Liara. By Miranda. By Javik. Lazarus was put in because it's good.

Modifié par David7204, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:19 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I acknowledge the flaws of ME2, but I never saw a narrative disconnect in the way others do. I do believe Mass Effect 2 is the best game I ever played. I'm not calling it perfect by any means though.

Does that bother you?

Does it bother me? No.

But it does leave me scratching my head to be honest.

Would this really be the first game you've ever played that you hated while others loved, or others hated which you loved?

I see the occasional post detailing how Mass Effect 1 in various ways was the best of the trilogy. Personally I think that's absolute crap, but it wouldn't be the first time people had different opinions.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Have you ever seen what happens when someone's parachute doesn't open? Have you ever seen what happens when someone falls from a high distance? Are you even defining gorey mess the same way as other people? 

Maybe you should Google instances of skydivers surviving impacts? Clearly, there's nothing even remotely close to a certainty of being turned into soup.

Maybe you shouldn't use the exception-to-the-rule fallacy (or make another argument towards which there is none from my end.)

"People have survived skydiving impacts. Therefore, skydiving impacts must not leave gory messes."

A google search confirms that most people in high impacts from altitude are killed. I can't say whether they're all turned into soup, but I'm sure it's not a pretty site.

[The Heretic of Time]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Still, despite all of ME2's flaws, it was the perfect opportunity to end the reaper story and leave them stranded in dark space forever and start a new story. Then Mac had to write Arrival.

To be honest, the ME2 ending (without having played Arrival) did leave me with the impression that the reapers were slowly but surely approaching the galaxy by manual FTL flight. So you can't completely blame Arrival, ME2 itself was already guilty of f*cking up the plot.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

David7204 wrote...

All of these complaints that Lazarus was brought up simply to 'enforce a time skip' are completely ridiculous. Lazarus is continually referenced as a source of drama between the characters. By Ashley. By Liara. By Miranda. By Javik. Lazarus was put in because it's good.

And how much of that drama is in vanilla ME2?

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

All of these complaints that Lazarus was brought up simply to 'enforce a time skip' are completely ridiculous. Lazarus is continually referenced as a source of drama between the characters. By Ashley. By Liara. By Miranda. By Javik.

But it is simply used to enforce a time skip.  There is no other reason for it to be there, then to have the ability to "re-create" Shepard, in terms of gameplay, to build up the so called "Collector threat" and to help establish the tension between Shepard and the VS/Alliance in general.  

Modifié par spirosz, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:21 .