217 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I think the Asari did it themselves. Yeah, Thessia was probably going to fail due to the crushing weight of the Reapers force, but the Asari keeping themselves out of the fight until it the war threatened them was rather inexcusable. It's really hard to feel sorry for them at all, especially when they possess rather smug and arrogant attitudes about themselves.

One thing I do like is my Shepard's reaction to Joker's joke about the Asari. It's not so much my Shepard getting upset about the joke on Thessia so much as it is him snapping over the pressure of a war that might have just been lost. He's angry because the end was so close, and he literally just had the rug pulled from under him, and possibly the galaxy. He's not happy. He kicks Allers off the ship.

[David7204]

David 7204 wrote...

That's nonsense anyway. As I'll point out yet again, there are numerous planets the player can visit detailing the asari struggling with the Reapers long before the player sets foot on Thessia.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:34 .

[Steelcan]

So either Liara lied about the Broker's influence, or she is incompetent. Given that the SB can use SPECTRES and start wars... Im going with incompetent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

David 7204 wrote...

That's nonsense anyway. As I'll point out yet again, there are numerous planets the player can visit detailing the asari struggling with the Reapers long before the player sets foot on Thessia.

You are leaving out the fact that the Asari are keeping themselves out of the war effort beyond colonial defense of their own planets. They certainly aren't helping anybody else. In fact, they choose not to try and help when a summit is convened to create an alliance to fight the Reapers, or to provide support for the Crucible until after the attempted coup.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

So either Liara lied about the Broker's influence, or she is incompetent. Given that the SB can use SPECTRES and start wars... Im going with incompetent.

I so wish we had the opportunity to blast her in the head in LotSB. Only problem is that the original Broker is also a psycho who would try to stab you in the back if it meant saving his own hide.

Which is why I've decided to auf Liara in my fanfiction. Shepard will incorporate the remnants of her network into his and Miranda's new group.

[David7204]

Is there evidence of any race helping out anyone other than themselves before Shepard helps them?

[Wolfva2]

You don't have to care about Thessia. Unfortunately, though, Shepard DOES. People keep forgetting we're not playing OUR character; we're playing a pre-rolled guy named Cmndr Shepard. We get to influence his actions and such, but some things are out of our control. He has PTSD surrounding the death of a child he tried to save, he is upset about Thessia.

Not saying I wouldn't have wanted us to have more control over Shep; fact is, I'm not saying one way or the other if I even like the approach or not. Just stating a fact; we play Shep; Shep sometimes has his own mind about things that may differ from what we want.

[Steelcan]

Wolfva2 wrote...

You don't have to care about Thessia. Unfortunately, though, Shepard DOES. People keep forgetting we're not playing OUR character; we're playing a pre-rolled guy named Cmndr Shepard. We get to influence his actions and such, but some things are out of our control. He has PTSD surrounding the death of a child he tried to save, he is upset about Thessia.

Not saying I wouldn't have wanted us to have more control over Shep; fact is, I'm not saying one way or the other if I even like the approach or not. Just stating a fact; we play Shep; Shep sometimes has his own mind about things that may differ from what we want.

In which case some Shepards are OOC.  You can butcher entire species, but one kid dies and you lose it?

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

So either Liara lied about the Broker's influence, or she is incompetent. Given that the SB can use SPECTRES and start wars... Im going with incompetent.

Sure, go with incompetant. 

That would be stupid, because Liara's not incompetant, she doesn't lie, and it's more likely the Shadow Broker just doesn't have any information on the temple, but yeah, fine, keep letting bias hold sway. 

[David7204]

Shepard never 'loses' it. The kid is mentioned in one conversation with Garrus, and it's handled well. You can't control what you dream about.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard never 'loses' it. The kid is mentioned in one conversation with Garrus, and it's handled well. You can't control what you dream about.

But overusing the child in the dreams was poorly handled

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Is there evidence of any race helping out anyone other than themselves before Shepard helps them?

That's not the point. Don't change your argument.

The Asari outright refuse to help when they have the capability to do so and with the majority of the Reapers focusing elsewhere.

The Reapers are ignoring them for the moment, and this is the perfect opportunity to provide assistance. And they fail to do so.

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Shepard never 'loses' it. The kid is mentioned in one conversation with Garrus, and it's handled well. You can't control what you dream about.

But overusing the child in the dreams was poorly handled

That's certainly true. The dreams were stupid, period, child or no child.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard never 'loses' it. The kid is mentioned in one conversation with Garrus, and it's handled well. You can't control what you dream about.

.  Handled well?  Congratulations you have lost all semblance of credibility.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wolfva2 wrote...

You don't have to care about Thessia. Unfortunately, though, Shepard DOES. People keep forgetting we're not playing OUR character; we're playing a pre-rolled guy named Cmndr Shepard. We get to influence his actions and such, but some things are out of our control. He has PTSD surrounding the death of a child he tried to save, he is upset about Thessia.

Not saying I wouldn't have wanted us to have more control over Shep; fact is, I'm not saying one way or the other if I even like the approach or not. Just stating a fact; we play Shep; Shep sometimes has his own mind about things that may differ from what we want.

Which leads to a lack of player agency for Shepard. Great work Bioware.

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Is there evidence of any race helping out anyone other than themselves before Shepard helps them?

That's not the point. Don't change your argument.

The Asari outright refuse to help when they have the capability to do so and with the majority of the Reapers focusing elsewhere.

The Reapers are ignoring them for the moment, and this is the perfect opportunity to provide assistance. And they fail to do so.

And so do the salarians, turians, quarians, geth, and everyone else. Nobody jumps up and lends a hand. They only help out the war effort when given something in return.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

So either Liara lied about the Broker's influence, or she is incompetent. Given that the SB can use SPECTRES and start wars... Im going with incompetent.

Sure, go with incompetant. 

That would be stupid, because Liara's not incompetant, she doesn't lie, and it's more likely the Shadow Broker just doesn't have any information on the temple, but yeah, fine, keep letting bias hold sway. 

.  She knew nothing about the krogan females, the old SB knew about Maelon so he likely knew that some survived.  She didnt know what Sanctuary was and clearly didnt bother sending anyone to find out.  How about the Cerberus base?  The old SB had plans to assassinate TIM.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

So either Liara lied about the Broker's influence, or she is incompetent. Given that the SB can use SPECTRES and start wars... Im going with incompetent.

Sure, go with incompetant. 

That would be stupid, because Liara's not incompetant, she doesn't lie, and it's more likely the Shadow Broker just doesn't have any information on the temple, but yeah, fine, keep letting bias hold sway. 

.  She knew nothing about the krogan females, the old SB knew about Maelon so he likely knew that some survived.  

Since Liara didn't know some survived, the old Shadow Broker probably didn't either. They both have access to the same information. Do you expect the Shadow Broker to be omniscient? Shouldn't you be glad Liara doesn't know everything? Surely, since you don't like her anyway, you'd be prefer her to have less involvement with the plot. 

She didnt know what Sanctuary was and clearly didnt bother sending anyone to find out.

Yeah, BW dropped the ball on this one and she failed quite poorly. 

Though it's slightly less annoying with the knowledge that Liara would been involved but her role was taken away and given to Traynor so she had something useful to do.

How about the Cerberus base?  The old SB had plans to assassinate TIM.

Cronos station constantly moves to remain hidden, remember? 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:06 .

[Steelcan]

Youd think the SB would have accounted for Cronos moving around.

I expect the SB to be knowledgeable about events that could tip the current balance of power.

[Nightwriter]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

You don't have to care about Thessia. Unfortunately, though, Shepard DOES. People keep forgetting we're not playing OUR character; we're playing a pre-rolled guy named Cmndr Shepard. We get to influence his actions and such, but some things are out of our control. He has PTSD surrounding the death of a child he tried to save, he is upset about Thessia.

Not saying I wouldn't have wanted us to have more control over Shep; fact is, I'm not saying one way or the other if I even like the approach or not. Just stating a fact; we play Shep; Shep sometimes has his own mind about things that may differ from what we want.

Which leads to a lack of player agency for Shepard. Great work Bioware.

Well. It leads to a player/PC disconnect, at least, and those should generally be avoided whenever possible.

Just because Shepard is not the exact same person we are doesn't mean the game should not make an effort to emotionally compel the player.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Is there evidence of any race helping out anyone other than themselves before Shepard helps them?

That's not the point. Don't change your argument.

The Asari outright refuse to help when they have the capability to do so and with the majority of the Reapers focusing elsewhere.

The Reapers are ignoring them for the moment, and this is the perfect opportunity to provide assistance. And they fail to do so.

And so do the salarians, turians, quarians, geth, and everyone else. Nobody jumps up and lends a hand. They only help out the war effort when given something in return.

You just changed the argument (again). Moving the goalpost... 

BTW, the Asari refuse to help, period. They don't offer help in return for solving their problems. Until they're on the chopping block and needing someone to save them, they're doing nothing to help the galaxy at large.

That said, yes, I agree, the Salarians weren't doing much to help either. But at least they allowed Shepard onto Sur'Kesh to retrieve the female Krogans to cure the genophage, even if they wanted to renege on that objective later. However small assistance that actually is, it is still more than anything the Asari did. They did offer to help provided their demand was met. They showed up to the summit to discuss the Salarian assistance in the war. That's more than the Asari did.

The Turians just got blitzed on all fronts by the Reapers, same as us. They're in the same boat we are. They're in the thick of it, doing their damndest to hold the Reapers at bay. When they say they can't help, they mean it. It's not that they want to refuse, but all of their assets are tied up in engagements right now. They are the ones calling for the war summit by the way. They're the ones proposing the military alliance in the first place.

The Quarians decided to have a little war against the Geth when they should have aided the galaxy, yes. People know I'm quite critical of them deciding the perfect time to start an avoidable war (and waste resources) is with the Reaper invasion. That said, they don't out and out refuse to help like the Asari do. They just go and start a bar fight without thinking of the fire that's slowly spreading from the entrance, and before anyone comes in to ask them for help.

The Geth are a rather difficult case to analyze. You really can't say what they were going to do or not do, because the Quarians attacked them before they could do anything. While I really don't condone the fact that they turned to the Reapers for assistance, I honestly can't blame them for wanting to live. To them, it was fight the Reapers and the organics, fight organics on their own, or accept Reaper help fighting the organics. The organics weren't really giving them much more of a choice beyond that. It was a total catch-22 situation that the Quarians put them into.

The Krogans are being selfish, sure, but they also have no real practical way of fighting the Reapers beyond a ground battle and their stashes of WMD's. They have no fleet, no warships, no transports. They are however, willing to help provided there is something in it for them. The Asari aren't.

Everybody else... The Volus' military relies entirely upon the Turians. That further stretches out the Turians already critically overstreched military. They're willing to help however. The Asari aren't.

The Hanar's small fleet is in danger of being destroyed from within by an indoctrinated agent. They're willing to help, but they can't until their defense force is secure from internal leaks. 

The Elcor don't have much either, and they're hit hard. No real context is given about their situation. There's really nothing to say about them in ME3 since they're little more than background and scenery.

The Vorcha. Seriously the Vorcha. They're a not so sophisticated race that more than likely have no understanding or care of what's going on. What military forces they have are essentially like trained animals that have little use beyond fodder since they're not really capable of higher processes in mentality.

The Raloi are new, and they completely withdraw and isolate themselves. They don't want to deal with this threat, especially when they probably have no military force to speak of. There is pretty much no use for them beyond fodder if they did decide to help. They're a non-entity.

The Batarians got hit before we did. Granted, they probably would have refused to help, but they lost everything before anyone else even knew what was going on. But they still willingly gave their last warships to the cause without asking for anything in return beyond avenging Khar'shan. All you have to do is talk mean to them and they join the cause.

It seems the Asari were the only ones who refused to help at all while also having the capacity and capability to do so.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:26 .

[Lhawke]

I did care that Thessia fell, but no more than Palavan or Earth. It's a pity Matriach Aethyta hadn't been in charge.
The line about letting people know the war was won on Thessia, well I just laughed at that. I thought yeah right. I'll be sure to let people know Thessia was hiding technology while planets were burning.

I did not care for the dialogue during the mission. The assumption that they were going to prevent the fall of Thessia as the end result of this mission.

Shepards sooking after the mission really annoyed me. This is a person who murdered surrendering baterians. Handed a young man to Cerberus to be a lab rat, ran through a refinery ignoring people being burnt to death.

Some anger at having being beaten by Cerberus would have been natural, but looking like she was going to burst into tears was just too much.

Being forced to take liara along was not good either, so I turn the dialogue off for most of that mission.

The first time I played this mission I got a little annoyed at the vi, "yes, pretty diagrams but we're in a hurry here".

[wolfhowwl]

Nightwriter wrote...
+ 10

They really did feel like an empty plot device. They had a difficult job: they had to feel important enough to make joining Cerberus feel absolutely, immediately necessary. And for me they didn't come anywhere near close to that.

Thessia suffers the same problem, but it had the benefit of being one of the only spots of poor emotional investment execution in a game that otherwise invested my emotions pretty well.

If they wanted better emotional investment, they could've made Thessia the main hub. The Council evacuates there at first word of the reaper invasion and the station is sealed so the reapers can't seize control of the relays as they usually do.

That would make more sense than the Citadel remaining open for business most of the game and having  the Reapers ignore the relay control station. The place is so poorly defended Derperus is able to storm the station and yet the Reapers don't even bother to send a token force.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

wolfhowwl wrote...
snip

This is going to be completely off-topic and unrelated:

Do you recognize the irony of your username and avatar? I'm sitting here, giggling like a schoolgirl and having beer drip out of nose from humorous excitement.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:39 .

[Barquiel]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

David 7204 wrote...

That's nonsense anyway. As I'll point out yet again, there are numerous planets the player can visit detailing the asari struggling with the Reapers long before the player sets foot on Thessia.

You are leaving out the fact that the Asari are keeping themselves out of the war effort beyond colonial defense of their own planets. They certainly aren't helping anybody else. In fact, they choose not to try and help when a summit is convened to create an alliance to fight the Reapers, or to provide support for the Crucible until after the attempted coup.

That's flat out wrong. We have evidence that the Asari did help the Alliance even before the asari councilor promised to send ships to Earth (Note that she promised to help Earth at virtually the same time as the Turians, Salarians and Krogan) -> that Asari Commando with PTSD in the Citadel Hospital.

To answer the question, I cared more about Thessia than I cared about Earth.