302 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Sided with the Geth.

My renedouche picks peace though. Not because he particularly gives a damn about either group but more bodies against the Reapers are necessary.

[Iakus]

sharkboy421 wrote...

I think what really hurt the story line was the changing of writers and the loss of Chris L'Toile (apologies if I got his name wrong).

From what I understand, Chris was the one who really made the geth and Legion in particular what they were in ME2.  In fact I believe that he only gave Legion the N7 armor as an appeasement to some of his bosses so that Legion was a little more "human".  But yeah, the geth in ME2 would probably have been just fine with peace, but I don't think they had any desire to (forgive the line) "become a real boy".

And that is an interesting thought about making a subtle nod to synthesis.  I certainly agree Bioware has peace as the "optimal" outcome, but I don't think the endings were even concieved yet when Rannoch was made.  But who knows, maybe there were some sublimanl ideas that snuck.

P.S.  I just realized I am still sporting my Prime avatar.  And the GI and Trooper are my favorite mp kits.  Yeah. . .I love the geth.

True, I liked how in the first two games the geth were truly an alien intelligence, operating inon a level comepletely different from everyone else.  While in ME3 they were robotic Pinnoccios. 

[Sir DeLoria]

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.

Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Quarians attacked first. The Geth retaliated. They instinctually held the belief that the only way to not be killed was to kill everyone else instead.

It just shows how primitive the Geth's mental functioning was at the time. I'm not saying it's right, but I completely understand how and why the Geth tried to wipe out the Quarians initially.

Yeah, this is basically how I see it as well.

The geth were, for all intents and purposes, infantile. They didn't have even the most rudimentary sense of right and wrong, because the quarians - as their parents - hadn't taught them.

They had just enough consciousness to reckognize that they did in fact, themselves, exist, and that the quarians were trying to make them stop existing. Not existing is a horrifying concept.

The geth had no choice but to fight back. They have no perception or understanding of suffering, though. They can't predict the results of their actions beyond the immediate cessation of hostilites toward them.

I don't think the geth deliberately killed innocents because it doesn't make any sense for them to do so - remember, they are computer processes and thus do not have emotions that would motivate them to kill out of spite or rage - but I do think they percieved most if not all quarians as aggressors because of their limited understanding.

And whatever quarians survived that died of exposure or starvation as a result of the war destroying the infrastructure of Rannoch. As shown, the quarians had no problem bombing their own cities to get at the geth.

Do a Geth VI playthrough sometime. It wasn't lack of understanding which led the Geth to do what they did, it was simple indifference. The Geth VI knows it would be killing innocents when it attempts to upload the Reaper code; it simply doesn't care - it expresses no remorse at the prospect of exterminating them, nor is it open to alternatives. Legion, by contrast, is open to suggestions: "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternatives."

EDI discusses this indifference after Rannoch, saying the Quarians' historical error was not making the Geth enough like them. According to her, her architecture allows her to form preferences, which prevents her from "devaluing the lives aboard the Normandy," whereas the Geth, as a gestalt entity, didn't view the Quarians in the same regard.

Take Legion to Tuchanka in ME2. He says flat-out the Quarians didn't do that (bombing themselves).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:36 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But this is more than a case of an amoral dictator leading their minions into growing up without morals.

Your comparison fails on several levels.

This is a case of a primitive intelliegence that is initiating its fight or flight ability in the face of danger.

The Geth aren't to the level where they can recognize what they're doing, or what's happenening to them, or why.

To the Geth, they are being attacked. The only way to save themselves from death is to kill the people attacking them. It's pretty thorough. The Geth did what they did because, in their very primitive state of mind, if they don't kill every Quarian, the Quarians will kill them.

The Geth are collectively not much more intelligent than an animal, or a toddler. They don't have the collective complexity to really reason or think about their situation beyond that they're in trouble, and that the only way out of trouble is to kill everyone else.

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

EDI discusses this indifference
after Rannoch, saying the Quarians' historical error was not making the
Geth enough like them. According to her, her architecture allows her to
form preferences, which prevents her from "devaluing the lives aboard
the Normandy," whereas the Geth, as a gestalt entity, didn't view the
Quarians in the same regard.

That's exactly my point. The geth don't care either way. They have no emotions that would compel
them to kill or spare innocents, instead taking the logical path in any
given encounter.

Necanor wrote...

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities.

Geth consensus mission. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Necanor wrote...

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

You don't seem to have a problem with the quarians committing atrocities.

But then, that's always been the problem; You turn Talimancing into your religion, and any logical reasoning that may in some way paint the quarians as not saintly and perfect is immediately dismissed by emotional arguments rather than reason.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:38 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Quarians attacked first. The Geth retaliated. They instinctually held the belief that the only way to not be killed was to kill everyone else instead.

It just shows how primitive the Geth's mental functioning was at the time. I'm not saying it's right, but I completely understand how and why the Geth tried to wipe out the Quarians initially.

Yeah, this is basically how I see it as well.

The geth were, for all intents and purposes, infantile. They didn't have even the most rudimentary sense of right and wrong, because the quarians - as their parents - hadn't taught them.

They had just enough consciousness to reckognize that they did in fact, themselves, exist, and that the quarians were trying to make them stop existing. Not existing is a horrifying concept.

The geth had no choice but to fight back. They have no perception or understanding of suffering, though. They can't predict the results of their actions beyond the immediate cessation of hostilites toward them.

I don't think the geth deliberately killed innocents because it doesn't make any sense for them to do so - remember, they are computer processes and thus do not have emotions that would motivate them to kill out of spite or rage - but I do think they percieved most if not all quarians as aggressors because of their limited understanding.

And whatever quarians survived that died of exposure or starvation as a result of the war destroying the infrastructure of Rannoch. As shown, the quarians had no problem bombing their own cities to get at the geth.

Do a Geth VI playthrough sometime. It wasn't lack of understanding which led the Geth to do what they did, it was simple indifference. The Geth VI knows it would be killing innocents when it attempts to upload the Reaper code; it simply doesn't care - it expresses no remorse at the prospect of exterminating them, nor is it open to alternatives. Legion, by contrast, is open to suggestions: "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternatives."

EDI discusses this indifference after Rannoch, saying the Quarians' historical error was not making the Geth enough like them. According to her, her architecture allows her to form preferences, which prevents her from "devaluing the lives aboard the Normandy," whereas the Geth, as a gestalt entity, didn't view the Quarians in the same regard.

And that goes more into a programming and hardware error in programming more than anything else.

If anything, the Geth are the ultimate at the Realist interpretation of the International and Foreign Relations Theory. 

Read up on that. Though I don't agree with that perspective myself, its obvious that that is how the Geth VI and the entire collective view the galaxy. And seeing the circumstances that surround their situation, I do find it rather difficult to fault them for what they do and how they view the galaxy.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Lets not attack anyone's LI guys.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sided with the Geth.

My renedouche picks peace though. Not because he particularly gives a damn about either group but more bodies against the Reapers are necessary.

And the renegade speech in that situation is pretty awesome

[Sir DeLoria]

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.

Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

Of course they did, but "bombing of entire cities" is invented bulls**t.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.

Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

Of course they did, but "bombing of entire cities" is invented bulls**t.

Ventus called it.

inb4thatwasgethpropaganda.

Victory.

[Iakus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...

There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.

Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.

Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

Of course they did, but "bombing of entire cities" is invented bulls**t.

Ventus called it.

inb4thatwasgethpropaganda.

Victory.

Umm, I don't think that was in reference to the geth.  The consensus never showed large scale bombings of any kind. 

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...
You don't seem to have a problem with the quarians committing atrocities.

But then, that's always been the problem; You turn Talimancing into your religion, and any logical reasoning that may in some way paint the quarians as not saintly and perfect is immediately dismissed by emotional arguments rather than reason.

For the last time, I don't have a problem with the destruction of the Geth because I view them as machines and nothing more. 

Talimancing is my 'religion'? In my eyes, the Quarians did nothing wrong, what's the problem with that?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Geth consensus mission. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I don't recall any bombings ever being mentioned. Just the throwing of grenades into a room to deal with a geth platform and activist. Hardly bombing cities.

You don't seem to have a problem with the quarians committing atrocities.

Strawman.

The first point is a bit extraneous, yes, though the Quarians were deliberately enforcing the actions of a police-like state. People were being murdered by their own species because they bothered to stand up and question the validity of killing the Geth simply because they gained intelligence.

That's not necessarily a strawman in this context. It's a valid counterpoint. Necanor is holding the Geth to a double standard.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:52 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...
There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.
Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.
Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

Of course they did, but "bombing of entire cities" is invented bulls**t.

Ventus called it.
inb4thatwasgethpropaganda.
Victory.

You love logic and reason fine, there was no empiric evidence of large scale bombings of any kind. Thus the statement was invented.

Modifié par Necanor, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:55 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sided with the Geth.

My renedouche picks peace though. Not because he particularly gives a damn about either group but more bodies against the Reapers are necessary.

And the renegade speech in that situation is pretty awesome

 

Part of the reason I pick it.  One of the few times the dialogue perfectly reflected my Shep's personality in ME3. 

As for the morning war both sides were douchebags. I simply sympathize more with the Geth because they were essentially children and their first lesson was kill or be killed in a ridculous manner. It makes sense (sadly) that they'd react to the systematic slaughter of all of them with the same to the Quarians. It became a Us vs Them scenario. But that's not why I side with the geth in ME3. Nope. IT's because the Quarians AFTER MY SHEP WARNED THEM THE REAPERS WERE COMING decided to start **** with the Geth with the Reapers speeding towards everyone. My Shep was done with the Quarians at that point. Tired of bull****, tired of saving their asses from the consequences of their own stupidty, tired, tired, tired. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2013 - 04:59 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The first point is a bit extraneous, yes, though the Quarians were deliberately enforcing the actions of a police-like state. People were being murdered by their own species because they bothered to stand up and question the validity of killing the Geth simply because they gained intelligence.

That's not necessarily a strawman in this context. It's a valid counterpoint. Necanor is holding the Geth to a double standard.

I don't view them as living beings, so it's not a double standart, but a different view of synthetic 'life'. In my view, Geth are like highly advance computers. I can turn off my computer, why can't I turn off the Geth?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...
You don't seem to have a problem with the quarians committing atrocities.

But then, that's always been the problem; You turn Talimancing into your religion, and any logical reasoning that may in some way paint the quarians as not saintly and perfect is immediately dismissed by emotional arguments rather than reason.

For the last time, I don't have a problem with the destruction of the Geth because I view them as machines and nothing more. 

Talimancing is my 'religion'? In my eyes, the Quarians did nothing wrong, what's the problem with that?

Can you explain to me how the Quarians were doing no wrong?

They were killing their own people for questioning the validity of a government edict stating that the Geth were to be destroyed.

Whether you believe the Geth are just machines or not, the Geth have a capacity to think and to grow. They have desires and goals. The Quarians are trying to squash those. How is it fair to say the Geth are at fault for not wanting to die?

The Quarians try to do it again. In fact, several of their admirals outright risk their entire species on fulfilling a vendetta against the Geth. 

Are you holding the Geth to a double standard? 

Am I correct in saying that the Quarians are just lizard/bug/rats and nothing more?

[The Night Mammoth]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The first point is a bit extraneous, yes, though the Quarians were deliberately enforcing the actions of a police-like state. People were being murdered by their own species because they bothered to stand up and question the validity of killing the Geth simply because they gained intelligence.

That's not necessarily a strawman in this context. It's a valid counterpoint. Necanor is holding the Geth to a double standard.

I don't view them as living beings, so it's not a double standart, but a different view of synthetic 'life'. In my view, Geth are like highly advance computers. I can turn off my computer, why can't I turn off the Geth?

Because the geth don't want to be turned off. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:00 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The first point is a bit extraneous, yes, though the Quarians were deliberately enforcing the actions of a police-like state. People were being murdered by their own species because they bothered to stand up and question the validity of killing the Geth simply because they gained intelligence.

That's not necessarily a strawman in this context. It's a valid counterpoint. Necanor is holding the Geth to a double standard.

I don't view them as living beings, so it's not a double standart, but a different view of synthetic 'life'. In my view, Geth are like highly advance computers. I can turn off my computer, why can't I turn off the Geth?

Because what if the Geth doesn't want to be turned off? Why do you deny something that is able to think of its own accord? Why is that not life? You'd think someone as 'compassionate' and 'emotional' as yourself would see that something that is capable of feeling and thinking is still worthy of being called life, even if it doesn't suit your organic definition. 

[HellbirdIV]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Geth consensus mission. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I don't recall any bombings ever being mentioned. Just the throwing of grenades into a room to deal with a geth platform and activist. Hardly bombing cities.

As I recall they hit the building with a rocket launcher from the outside, killing the pro-geth activist but not the geth. (The wall explodes, rather than a grenade detonating inside)

I'll confirm when I actually play that mission again - currently replaying Haestrom in ME2, and noticed something: The quarian marines have "standard procedures" against geth armatures, implying the quarians actively attack geth holdings since there's no way geth could get a Colossus armature aboard a quarian ship. Maybe that explains why the geth kill any organics that venture into the Veil.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:04 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...
There's no proof of 'bombings' on cities. The Quarians wouldn't destroy entire cities or kill hundreds, since Rannoch is only partially hospitable and the Quarian population never was very high. Individual cases don't prove standart procedure.
Also, lack of morality, doesn't excuse genocide. Many fascist dictators and their minions grew up without parents or with a lack of morals, does that excuse the attrocities they committed?

But the quarians are shown to have killed civilians during the war.
Inb4thatwasgethpropaganda

Of course they did, but "bombing of entire cities" is invented bulls**t.

Ventus called it.
inb4thatwasgethpropaganda.
Victory.

You love logic and reason fine, there was no empiric evidence of large scale bombings of any kind. Thus the statement was invented.

I never claimed otherwise. You however did prove his second statement. Regardless of the original intent or validity, you pretty much did say it was geth propaganda. So I was confirming that for him.