302 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...
You don't seem to have a problem with the quarians committing atrocities.

But then, that's always been the problem; You turn Talimancing into your religion, and any logical reasoning that may in some way paint the quarians as not saintly and perfect is immediately dismissed by emotional arguments rather than reason.

For the last time, I don't have a problem with the destruction of the Geth because I view them as machines and nothing more. 

Talimancing is my 'religion'? In my eyes, the Quarians did nothing wrong, what's the problem with that?

If by "did nothing wrong" you mean "wanted to kill each and every geth for no good reason", then sure.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Can you explain to me how the Quarians were doing no wrong?

They were killing their own people for questioning the validity of a government edict stating that the Geth were to be destroyed.

Whether you believe the Geth are just machines or not, the Geth have a capacity to think and to grow. They have desires and goals. The Quarians are trying to squash those. How is it fair to say the Geth are at fault for not wanting to die?

The Quarians try to do it again. In fact, several of their admirals outright risk their entire species on fulfilling a vendetta against the Geth. 
Are you holding the Geth to a double standard? 
Am I correct in saying that the Quarians are just lizard/bug/rats and nothing more?

Of course Quarians mistreating and killing their own people were wrong. Your demotion of the entire Quarian race to rodents is in fact racism, as the entire race can't be held responsible for the actions of a few. Some white men held slaves, does that mean all white men are just rats? You can judge the responsible individuals however you like, but not the whole race. The geth don't apply to that, not just becaus they're machines, but due to their consensus mind.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

the quarians created the geth,they have every right  to destroy their creation.

Modifié par IntelligentME3Fanboy, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:06 .

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

I don't view them as living beings, so it's not a double standart

Actually that's exactly why it's a double standard.

You view one side as inferior to the other and not comparable, thus when something happens to one, it's bad, but when it happens to the other, it's not bad. That's exactly what a double-standard.

You are basing that solely on your own view and perspective. It's no different from racist or sexist double standards.

Morocco Mole wrote...

"Not so aggressive".

You do know that Tuchanka went through a nuclear holocaust, right? You do also realize the difference between tactical bombing and nuclear warfare?

I never did say the quarians nuked their own cities. I did say they have no qualms about bombing them. Like with grenades.

It's kind of a moot point given that they endanger their civilian fleet the exact same way 300 years later, so wether you believe the Consensus or not, the quarians still choose killing geth over preserving civilian lives.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:13 .

[o Ventus]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't recall any bombings ever being mentioned. Just the throwing of grenades into a room to deal with a geth platform and activist. Hardly bombing cities.

That quarian civilian was hiding from the quarian marines behind a stack of barrels, clutching his side as if he had been injured. He was also breathing heavily and his voice was clearly strained, further indicating that he was hurt. I would hardly call that an "activist".

Modifié par o Ventus, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:10 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Can you explain to me how the Quarians were doing no wrong?

They were killing their own people for questioning the validity of a government edict stating that the Geth were to be destroyed.

Whether you believe the Geth are just machines or not, the Geth have a capacity to think and to grow. They have desires and goals. The Quarians are trying to squash those. How is it fair to say the Geth are at fault for not wanting to die?

The Quarians try to do it again. In fact, several of their admirals outright risk their entire species on fulfilling a vendetta against the Geth. 
Are you holding the Geth to a double standard? 
Am I correct in saying that the Quarians are just lizard/bug/rats and nothing more?

Of course Quarians mistreating and killing their own people were wrong. Your demotion of the entire Quarian race to rodents is in fact racism, as the entire race can't be held responsible for the actions of a few. Some white men held slaves, does that mean all white men are just rats? You can judge the responsible individuals however you like, but not the whole race. The geth don't apply to that, not just becaus they're machines, but due to their consensus mind.

You're leaving out the part where individual Geth programs do indeed have their own perspectives.

You're using the argument of a consesus mind out of context. Just because they operate by consensus does not mean that they are of one collective mind with one purpose. Legion emphasizes this. They can share feedback and perspective and understand the purpose of differences in opinion, but they are not of a uniform mind. If your claim was true, either the heretics would not be able to exist, or every Geth would follow the Reapers.

And I think you're being racist with your application of the Geth being "just machines". 

I'm not demoting the entire race of Quarians to that of vermin. I'm using hypothetical contextual analogy to highlight where I perceive the flaw in your belief is.

[Dextro Milk]

This thread is wack.

Make peace and shut up. For real. Both sides made mistakes, you guys are arguing in circles. (I used "arguing" as a figure of speech, in case any of you wanted to act like a smart ass)

[Anubis722]

Dextro Milk wrote...

This thread is wack.

Make peace and shut up. For real. Both sides made mistakes, you guys are arguing in circles. (I used "arguing" as a figure of speech, in case any of you wanted to act like a smart ass)

I said this was going to happen back on page 1 lol

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

AI aren't even real. Nor are Quarians, but at the very least, organic life is real. That's the only reference for actual life people have in reality, and so they consciously or subconsciously form their judgements accordingly. We haven't gotten to the point where our computers could even be construed as a form of basic life, let alone intelligent life. We're not even on the brink. Artificial Intelligence is a completely theoretical idea that has yet to escape the realm of science fiction. Yet people go on about it as if it's some tangible thing that deserves all one's attention.

The only way you can accept the Geth as a form of life is to completely embrace another world at the expense of your own (in this case, the Mass Effect universe). For some people, that's asking too much.

Said it better than I could.

We might not actually be that far off from developing independently capable systems. It's going to be in the realm of science fact within 50 years.

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

We might not actually be that far off from developing independently capable systems. It's going to be in the realm of science fact within 50 years.

Key word "might", I'll believe it when I see it, thank you very much.

[sharkboy421]

StreetMagic wrote...

AI aren't even real. Nor are Quarians, but at the very least, organic life is real. That's the only reference for actual life people have in reality, and so they consciously or subconsciously form their judgements accordingly. We haven't gotten to the point where our computers could even be construed as a form of basic life, let alone intelligent life. We're not even on the brink. Artificial Intelligence is a completely theoretical idea that has yet to escape the realm of science fiction. Yet people go on about it as if it's some tangible thing that deserves all one's attention.

The only way you can accept the Geth as a form of life is to completely embrace another world at the expense of your own (in this case, the Mass Effect universe). For some people, that's asking too much.

I'm not quite sure what you mean there.

As to your earlier point, yes its true there is no actual AI in the modern world.  But we are in discussing this topic in the context of a fictional universe where AI's do exist.  So while our views maybe muddled by our current "real world" experiences, we can still debate whether AI is real or not within the context of that fictional universe.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I chose the quarians because it cleans up the ending of the game making it easy to choose whichever pile of crap you want without having to consider genocide. Plain and simple. I don't need the Geth war assets because Aria T'loak supplies quite a sufficient number from Omega to make up for the crushed geth. But since I don't get to the end anymore I don't really care. I only go far enough to lock in my character's LI then play the Citadel DLC which is the real ending of the game, because in this AU the remainder of the story got cancelled due to low ratings.

However, knowing what I know now if I were to make a run to the end, I would choose the Geth because clearly they are better suited to living in the synthesized galaxy that Mac and Casey wanted in their Golden Ending. It was the Golden Ending because it was the most difficult to get of the Original Endings, right? Shepard's Breath required 3900 EMS and Synthesis required 4000 EMS. It now requires a mere 3100 EMS with the EC.

[Dextro Milk]

StreetMagic wrote...

The argument is irrelevant anyways.

Of course it is irrelevant. Anyone that lets either side die is a failure, and I said it is akin to Lt. Gorman from Aliens, freezing under the pressure and not able to say anything to help. Aka, your Shepard sucks tbh.

[Dextro Milk]

StreetMagic wrote...
Whether you think my "Shepard" sucks or not is irrelevant too. Kind of my point? Do you really expect people to play for your sake.. make certain choices just because it makes you satisfied? I hope not.

Then don't bother posting at all...

This is why these threads are pointless. No one is going to change their crappy choices because I tell them they suck, and I find it sad people would actually defend killing off an entire race when both sides made mistakes. Meh, if you want a failShep, go right ahead, I won't hold you back.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

We might not actually be that far off from developing independently capable systems. It's going to be in the realm of science fact within 50 years.

Key word "might", I'll believe it when I see it, thank you very much.

I recommend following this. I've been watching them for a few months now.

http://www.scienceda...l_intelligence/

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dextro Milk wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The argument is irrelevant anyways.

Of course it is irrelevant. Anyone that lets either side die is a failure, and I said it is akin to Lt. Gorman from Aliens, freezing under the pressure and not able to say anything to help. Aka, your Shepard sucks tbh.

My Shepard didn't "freeze" under pressure. She acted quickly and was not a failure. She told Legion "I can't let you upload the code" then shot him three times. It is all explained in my last post. It doesn't matter in the end. You still get the same three crappy choices in the end of the game, except now you can destroy the reapers without having "considerations". Aria T'loak fills in the missing war assets from Omega.

[Dextro Milk]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

My Shepard didn't "freeze" under pressure. She acted quickly and was not a failure. She told Legion "I can't let you upload the code" then shot him three times. It is all explained in my last post. It doesn't matter in the end. You still get the same three crappy choices in the end of the game, except now you can destroy the reapers without having "considerations". Aria T'loak fills in the missing war assets from Omega.

That post was directed more towards people that let the quarians die, considering a simple radio message from Shepard letting them know the geth were getting the code again, could have saved them.

[HellbirdIV]

Dextro Milk wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
Whether you think my "Shepard" sucks or not is irrelevant too. Kind of my point? Do you really expect people to play for your sake.. make certain choices just because it makes you satisfied? I hope not.

Then don't bother posting at all...

This is why these threads are pointless.

You could always, y'know... Not read them.

Dextro Milk wrote...
a simple radio message from Shepard letting
them know the geth were getting the code again, could have saved them.

Except Shepard DOES tell the quarians to back off. Han'Garrel ignores both her and Tali, demanding that the quarians keep shooting.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:40 .

[Dextro Milk]

StreetMagic wrote...

You can't hold anyone back anyways. Why would they need your permission?

What? What are you talking about? It is a figure of speech "I won't hold you back", aka, make what I would call a stupid choice, I won't stop you. Obviously I can't hold them back nor do they need my persmission... 

And yes, these threads are pointless. The only relevant thing in my mind is the wider issue of AI.. it's worth debating at least. That's why I'll "bother posting at all". It doesn't need to be a thread about Rannoch though. It can come up anytime, and I might offer my 2c.

It's just annoying how people feel the need to make a thread when there is really nothing left to discuss about it, if he used the "search" function, he could have gotten all the juicy geth/quarian debates...