302 réponses à ce sujet

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Just curious, was there a point to bait him like that, or do you get off on mis-quoting people?

[Iakus]

Steelcan wrote...

@Iakus, or if you go near their territory.

Read the codex description on the Heavy Fleet

"No matter the cause they are with the Reapers"

Who but the quarians go beyond the Veil?  And the quarians initiated hostilities every time.

The codex describes Heavy Fleet as being made up of cruisers, frigates, and fighters.  And Han'Gerrel uses the best tech he can get his hands on.  That's great for fighting off mercs or pirates.  But Shala'Ran tells Shepard that numbers aside, they can't compete with a Council Fleet.

And you can free them from the Reapers, thus they would no longer be with the Reapers. 

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...
]How is peace not the best outcome? 

And I disagree, there are plenty of "fail" moves for Shepard to make. I could name them, but it would be off topic.

Dextro, bro, I'm sorry but this is the only time I disagree with you. The Geth Quarians will pay for what they did:mellow:

What? Why? That edit was completely pointless.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Dextro, bro, I'm sorry but this is the only time I disagree with you. The Geth Quarians will pay for what they did:mellow:

What? Why? That edit was completely pointless.

He was just correcting your mistake.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:01 .

[Steelcan]

iakus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Iakus, or if you go near their territory.

Read the codex description on the Heavy Fleet

"No matter the cause they are with the Reapers"

Who but the quarians go beyond the Veil?  And the quarians initiated hostilities every time.

The codex describes Heavy Fleet as being made up of cruisers, frigates, and fighters.  And Han'Gerrel uses the best tech he can get his hands on.  That's great for fighting off mercs or pirates.  But Shala'Ran tells Shepard that numbers aside, they can't compete with a Council Fleet.

And you can free them from the Reapers, thus they would no longer be with the Reapers. 

Dignitaries seeking peace, shot down without a radio hail

And many of the ships use cutting edge technoligy

What if the Reapers instead put the hub for controlling them not in a system with an entire enemy fleet in it?

[Dextro Milk]

HellbirdIV wrote...

He was just correcting your mistake.

Quarians were correcting the geth mistake when they killed them tbh.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

@Iakus, or if you go near their territory.

Read the codex description on the Heavy Fleet

"No matter the cause they are with the Reapers"

I've explained this to you before.

The Geth have a very, very hawkish and realistic isolationist approach to the rest of the galaxy. It's part of the International Relations Theory. It's all a part of Game Theory in the realm of International (or in this case, interstellar) Politics. Their plan is to minimize risks to their livlihood and existence. To treat everything as a threat. It's not necessarily the most compelling path for them to have taken, but I can't fault them for choosing it given the context of their experiences.

They've learned the hard way in the past that organics have a disposition to renounce synthetics and try to destroy them. It's a very cynical mindset, but its also a practical one. The Geth have a belief that due to the nature of organics, organics will fear and seek to destroy synthetics. While the Geth may not necessarily be closed to the idea of peace, they really don't believe that it is possible. It's jaded realism. Some might even call it paranoia, and they wouldn't be far from the mark.

Then you have someone like Shepard who comes along with this progressive constructivist mindset (if you so choose), and they see that this prominent organic who people listen to and respect, and who has the capability of changing minds and engendering progress and change comes along and suddenly the Geth are intrigued, especially when this organic voluntarily collaborates with synthetics for a common goal. 

That's how I would describe the Geth's position.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:06 .

[Steelcan]

The quarians are not one entity. There are quarians WHO week peace, war, etc... The geth have no I, only we. The geth agree what to do then do it. They either do not or cannot distinguish between hostiles and civilians.

[Steelcan]

@Massively,
If the geth want peace they should just say so, not kill every dignitary who comes near them nor rely on one human. They should start with the pro-peace quarians like Koris.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Dextro, bro, I'm sorry but this is the only time I disagree with you. The Geth Quarians will pay for what they did:mellow:

What? Why? That edit was completely pointless.

He was just correcting your mistake.

Should I point out the flaw in that statement? Nevermind, the edit was just childish.

Modifié par Necanor, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:07 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

The quarians are not one entity. There are quarians WHO week peace, war, etc... The geth have no I, only we. The geth agree what to do then do it. They either do not or cannot distinguish between hostiles and civilians.

The don't distinguish. And I just told you why they don't. It comes down to how you view the International Relations Theory and which perspective you hold towards it.

They can't afford too. 

[sharkboy421]

Steelcan wrote...

I seriously dont understand why people are so sympathetic to the geth. On a good day they will ignore you, most other days they'd kill you without hesitation or warning. They did nothing to stop the heretics and refused contact with the rest of the galaxy. Then the quarians finally have a way to take back their homeworld and offer you the largest fleet in the galaxy for helping them wipe out the geth, who then decide to join the Reapers. And without the code upgrades, the geth would have likely been hacked anyways.

Perhaps I shouldn't be going here but I whole-heartedly disagree with you on all of your points.  But first of all, I do not consider the geth innocent by any stretch.  They have indeed particpated in attrocities.  However, the quarians are not innocent either as I feel their attempt to forcibly shut down the geth is on the same lines as genocide.  I feel this way because I do believe the geth are sentient beings who have the rights as other sentient beings in Mass Effect.

Now onto your points:

1.  The geth ignore you because they wish to be left alone as well.  They want to determine their own future without input from anyone else.  And up until the events of ME, any contact with organics had been hostile, so it is logical they wanted to avoid further, pointless conflict.

2.  I don't believe there were any instances of the "true" geth initiating hostilities against anyone.  In the Morning War it was the quarians who struck first.  As has been said on this thread, I agree that the geth were at the time very infantile and reacted in a very basic way; kill that which is trying to kill you.  That is not to say they were justified, but I understand why they reacted with the violence they did. 

3.  Letting the "heretics" join Sovereign is an extension of the "true" geth belief.  The "true" geth believe self-determination and allowed the "heretics" to follow their own path.  While the "heretics" were aggressive towards organics, it was only at the urging of the reapers and the geth as a whole should not be judged on the actions of a few.

4.  The geth only turned the reapers out of fear of being destroyed.  Now I agree it was a poor decision and I have already said I dislike the how the ME3 geth differ from ME2, but even so the geth were once again not the aggressors.  They acted in a very logical way; their entire reace was severely threatened and the only ones who would evenn consider helping them were the reapers.  A bad choice but I do understand.

5.  While the Migrant Fleet might have numbers on their side, I always thought it was mainly civilian ships with jury-rigged guns and only a (relatively) few military vessels.  I personally would prefer the geth armada which might have fewer numbers, but all were military in nature (similar to the Turian Hierarchy fleet).

[HellbirdIV]

Steelcan wrote...

@Massively,
If the geth want peace
they should just say so, not kill every dignitary who comes near them
nor rely on one human. They should start with the pro-peace quarians
like Koris.

The geth may want peace but their experience with the quarians has taught them that organics will always attempt to destroy them. So, they achieve peace by isolating themselves. They didn't go out of their way to kill organics (until the Reapers influenced the Heretics), only defending their own turf.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[Anubis722]

Modifié par AnubisEgyptainLordofDeath, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[ShepnTali]

Legion turns violent when you side with the Quarians. Tali or Xen just kill themselves. I'd rather deal with Quarians if forced to choose. Geth are potentially too dangerous.

[Steelcan]

@Sharkboy
1. I guess the geth forgot about the quarians who died helping them, or the envoys they shot down

2. The true geth are the ones who murdered billions.

3. Then they are idiots. They let the heretics leave knowing that their beliefs would force them into war with organics. They only cared when the heretics threatened them

4. Yes incredibly stupid. I'll correct that mistake

5. The quarians are needed for support, not frontline fighting.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

@Massively,
If the geth want peace they should just say so, not kill every dignitary who comes near them nor rely on one human. They should start with the pro-peace quarians like Koris.

Did you even read what I posted? Have you read anything about Game Theory or International Relations Theory?

This is something I've been thinking about for a bit.

This comes down from a collective mindset from experience.

The Geth want peace, and desire coexistence.

They do not believe that it is possible however. They believe that organics, the vast majority anyway, are not intereste in either peace or coexistence. They've come to this realization the hard way through experience.

That there are some advocates for peace does not mean that it is the rule. It's the exception. The Geth aren't going to stake their survival on the knowledge that there are a few people in the galaxy who happen to be progressive in their idea's. The Geth are going to do what they think is best for the Geth. They don't seek alliances or try to eke an edge over the balance of power, mainly because every other state (or species in this context) already have exiting dispositions and possible alliances against the Geth. 

As I have said, read into the Realist standpoint of the IRT and compare it with the Liberalism and Constructivist positions. The Geth have a very conservative, very extreme (though not unfoundedly so) standpoint that is almost a textbook example of a state based on realism for its foreign policies.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:21 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
I found Han'Gerrel's position in ME2 far more sympathetic than in ME3.  He brings up a very good question:  Whenthe war comes, where are they going to put their civilians?  Doesn't help that the COuncil was such a douche to the quarians and wouldn't let them colonize any dextro worlds in their area.  And in the end, they were tired of wandering, pating for their anscestors' actions.

Then ME3 happened, and he took his stupid pills.  Now he's a cariacture of his former self.

To be fair it seems most of the cast took stupid pills in ME3. And yeah in ME2 I wasn't fond of the guy but I could see his position. But yeah ME3 just has idiots at the helm. 

[Sir DeLoria]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...
Just curious, was there a point to bait him like that, or do you get off on mis-quoting people?

I quite enjoy the hypocrisy in this thread from the pro-geth side.

Especially if it's edited later on to sound better. But I'm not calling names:whistle:

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Massively,
If the geth want peace
they should just say so, not kill every dignitary who comes near them
nor rely on one human. They should start with the pro-peace quarians
like Koris.

The geth may want peace but their experience with the quarians has taught them that organics will always attempt to destroy them. So, they achieve peace by isolating themselves. They didn't go out of their way to kill organics (until the Reapers influenced the Heretics), only defending their own turf.

.  Then they are morons. Hostile isolation only caused the rest of the galaxy to fear and hate them.

[Lhawke]

Necanor wrote...

Lhawke wrote...

My first playthrough I chose the geth. Peace was not an option and I saw the geth as the wronged party. All the Quarians had to do was stand down, they refused so I stood there and watched them crash and burn.
Along with my argument with Mordin it was probably one of the best moments of the game.

So the wrong choice of 1 Admiral justifies genocide and mass murder? 

The geth destroyed the quarians in self defense, the quarians were the aggressors.

It was a first playthrough there was always a chance that the Quarians would back down at the last minute. And my Shepard didn't have the advantage of future knowledge at that time. 
Also my shepard was not willing to stand by and let the geth be destroyed for defending themselves from attack. If it had been admiral Hackett and the fifth fleet she would have made the same decision.

Being one of the two best moments of the game, doesn't mean it was the most enjoyable, just one I won't forget in a hurry.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...
Just curious, was there a point to bait him like that, or do you get off on mis-quoting people?

I quite enjoy the hypocrisy in this thread from the pro-geth side.

Yes, I was baiting him. For funsies.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:23 .

[Steelcan]

The geth also do have experiences with organics who openly worked with them. You cannot say all the geth know us violence from organics. It simply isnt true. Both quarians who died defending the geth in the Morning War and even admirals want coexistence.

Conversely how many times did the geth ask for peace? Did they ever make it known they desired an end to the conflict? No.

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...
Just curious, was there a point to bait him like that, or do you get off on mis-quoting people?

I quite enjoy the hypocrisy in this thread from the pro-geth side.

Yes, I was baiting him. Does that bother you?

Just think it was rather uncalled for. You seem to put his name up in the "Wall of Shame" enough... When he is only defending the race he loves, which can be said about what you do with Miranda and Cerberus.