23 réponses à ce sujet

[VirtualAlex]

While playing ME2 for the Nteenth time I finally really understood Okeer. This Krogan was the most brilliant Krogan that ever lived. I don't know why I never really "got it" but Okeer had the right idea.

He said forget the genophage cure, let's just clone ourselves into glory. It is a very elegant solution. He could make a perfect Krogan and clone it into glory. Clan Okeer, an entire clan of thousands of Grunt clones.

The sad thing is, he succeeded! He made a perfect Krogan, had access to all of the tech he needed to make as many Grunts as he wanted and AT THAT MOMENT he is gassed to death

That had become the saddest death in mass effect to me.

[Marick58]

Go check the Asgard story from Stargate, they also had some kind of problem, so they cloned themselves to death, literally, their bodies started to decay after so much cloning.

[Sir DeLoria]

Okeer is a Krogan mad scientist, that's all.

[Bendigoe]

I would've been very happy if we got both Okeer and Grunt, a scientist Krogan on the team would've been amazing and there could have been a lot of interesting Mordin & Okeer content.

[Pyk]

That's a difficult topic. Natural reproduction leads to biodiversity, and biodiversity combined with natural selection leads to best fit to actual environmental circumstances. That's something cloning is completely opposite to, and therefore is not the best way to survive.

However, one might argue that at some point sapient species reach a level of technological development when environmental changes occur just too fast for natural selection to remain a sufficient way of adaptation - that's when genetic engineering, cybernetics and all the transhuman (transkrogan?) approach might do. I guess that's what Okeer was really up to.

But do we know exactly how to artificially guide our biological development? How can we predict long-term effects of changing rapidly parts of a system that's been evolving as one for millenia?
And that's not only applicable to our very species, we evolved as a whole ecosystem.

Okeer had a point, though.

By the way, am I the only one who thinks Wrex has mentioned other tank-bred krogan? Like Okeer wasn't the only one trying that approach. And what about Saren? He literally had a clone factory. I wonder how many of the krogans in game are demobilized Saren's troopers

[NextGenCowboy]

Were the Korgan on Virmire tank-bred? Or was there some other cloning going on?

Okeer's other Krogan (at least the one you meet) doesn't seem to be as eloquent as Grunt, and Grunt being the only real sample we have that was considered a success means we don't really have a large enough sample size. I don't think Okeer was right, but he may have been on the right track, as aside from Wrex not many Krogan (even the scientist) seemed to care about the effect the Genophage had on their species. Granted we dealt with a limited number of Krogan over the games.

That said, Grunt's pretty much the Uber-Krogan, so I guess Okeer got it right with that. If it would have been a viable long-term solution I don't know. I'm not really a master in the field of genetic engineering.

[Malanek]

I always thought Okeer had another purpose with Grunt and that there was some subliminal hidden imprint that was going to surface at some time. Without that, Okeers motives don't make a lot of sense to me.

[Aimi]

Okeer wasn't planning on cloning another Grunt. He stated that the tech necessary to do so was consumed in his prototype, and added that "numbers alone are nothing; the mistake of an outsider, one that [Jedore's] mercenaries have also made". Grunt was supposed to be the opposite of numerical superiority, a single krogan with unstoppable power: "the galaxy still bears the scars of the horde...but they will learn to fear the lance".

[NextGenCowboy]

He also says he will inflict the greatest insult upon the Genophage "to be ignored". So I don't really know what his ultimate motives were, other than to create a single super-powered Krogan.

I love me some Grunt, but I'm not seeing him making galactic society bow down before him. He is pure Krogan, and by extension we should be in awe, but I don't see him taking on all of the Turian millitary, at least not until he's a couple of years older anyway.

Modifié par NextGenCowboy, 17 juillet 2013 - 12:32 .

[DarthLaxian]

Necanor wrote...

Okeer is a Krogan mad scientist, that's all.

Scientist - yeah...mad? - well that is up for debate (and a matter of your point of view - if you are Krogan and dying out, then making one (or two - if you want male and female, which i would want) perfect Krogan (hell Grunt is the Krogan-Version of Miranda, he is the Optimum in any way and very unnatural...he is probably stronger, will live longer, heals better and faster etc.....) is a very good idea and cloning that example as much times as you need it put some live-energy back into the race, then it is Genius (!)...at least if you are not nitpicky about Grunt not being a biotic...but if you can clone him, then you can perform the operation making a Krogan non-biotic into a battlemaster again (who cares for the high rate of mortality, you got an endless supply of new clones...you could even work on perfecting the procedure...))

so yeah, if you are Krogan (and don't care much for the death the experiments (in cloning and in turning the clones biotic - if you can't pull a Miranda and integrate that into the proces) it is a good idea and Okeer is a Genius

If you dislike the Krogan (or experiments on intellingent beings) then it is madness (double if you are Turian or Salarian and know that the Krogan will probably use the data from the experiment and many more cloning cylinders to get around the genophage)

As for Okeer - i can understand him...he wants to do something good for his dying race (i would probably, too) and make a monument (Grunt is the best the Krogan have to offer!)...it is really kind of sad that he dies in the moment of success (poetic justice/injustice?)

greetings LAX
ps: and if you can't clone him (i agree that that is not what Okeer wanted - Grunt clones i mean), then he is still a statement:

We are still here - FEAR US! (Grunt is after all very very very powerfull and can take incredible amounts of punishment etc.)

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 17 juillet 2013 - 01:27 .

[VirtualAlex]

I was under the impression that he wants to make elite krogan. He said the current birthrate creates too much coddling because every child is precious. He says the korgans are weak. Turning to a cloning strategy, they no longer need to worry about birthrate. I don't think anyone would think that a single Krogan can make a difference on a galactic scale, especially a smart krogan like Okeer.

He was happy about Grunt as the first success in his plan, but he is probably thinking more long-term.

[Beerfish]

For a race that is always declaring they had no scientist to counter act the genophage the Krogan sure had a lot of scientists.

I still can't quite get Okeers point. How is one Krogan albeit a superior one going to change things? In the end perhaps the most important imprint on Grunt failed or he probably would not have happily taken up with Shepard.

[Display Name Owner]

I often wonder if Okeer would have been better than Grunt. He was certainly more unique among the Krogan.

[Kataphrut94]

It's an interesting theory, but at the end of the day a 'lance' isn't going to stop your people going extinct.

[Beerfish]

Modern day Okeer.

[Malanek]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

It's an interesting theory, but at the end of the day a 'lance' isn't going to stop your people going extinct.

Agree, I don't believe Okeers purpose had anything to do with enhancing Krogan numbers. I believe he built Grunt for some other purpose. Likely to kill someone or destroy something for vengeance.

[NextGenCowboy]

Judging by Grunt's reaction to the imprinting he was built at least partially to detest Turians, and Salarians. Then again from his comments he seems to have the knowledge to kill all the primary species.

My assumption is that by lance, Okeer intended for him to lead the Krogan to galatic superioty.

Modifié par NextGenCowboy, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:43 .

[Display Name Owner]

I think he was going to make more Krogan genetically identical to Grunt, and his intention was to establish them as the master race. The Krogan grew more lax on their 'only the strong survive' mandate because of the Genophage, so I guess he was trying to introduce a generation of stronger Krogan whose genes would kick the race back up to their former glory. He wanted the Krogan to stop nurturing the weak in the name of keeping numbers from dwindling, and make it so the remaining ones were strong.

He was actually a complete bastard, which is why I think having him around would have been so interesting. Of course given his intentions to spark another Krogan uprising, you'd probably have had to kill him eventually, but it would have been cool while it lasted imo.

[VirtualAlex]

isnudo wrote...

I think he was going to make more Krogan genetically identical to Grunt, and his intention was to establish them as the master race. The Krogan grew more lax on their 'only the strong survive' mandate because of the Genophage, so I guess he was trying to introduce a generation of stronger Krogan whose genes would kick the race back up to their former glory. He wanted the Krogan to stop nurturing the weak in the name of keeping numbers from dwindling, and make it so the remaining ones were strong.

He was actually a complete bastard, which is why I think having him around would have been so interesting. Of course given his intentions to spark another Krogan uprising, you'd probably have had to kill him eventually, but it would have been cool while it lasted imo.

I agree with this 100% Okeer was awesome.

[StarcloudSWG]

 Krogan respect strength. Long term, a single 'perfect' Krogan would be seen as the ideal partner. Thus spreading the superior genes into the Krogan population. Even 'diluted', that slight advantage could multiply over generations.

[rashie]

I was under the impression that he would be unable to recreate a krogan like Grunt easily even with the knowledge required due to what Okeer says when the Mercenary leader outside starts to flush/gas the tanks.

Am i missing something here or are we assuming using Grunt as the base DNA would have a different outcome then the probably thousands of krogans born and killed previously?

Modifié par rashie, 21 juillet 2013 - 11:53 .

[Brannon]

Like any new superior "tech", making new Grunts would get easier and easier as the process was refined. I'm assuming that was Okeer's ultimate intention. Trump the genophage by go the route of "quality over quantity."

[Praetor Knight]

daqs wrote...

Okeer wasn't planning on cloning another Grunt. He stated that the tech necessary to do so was consumed in his prototype, and added that "numbers alone are nothing; the mistake of an outsider, one that [Jedore's] mercenaries have also made". Grunt was supposed to be the opposite of numerical superiority, a single krogan with unstoppable power: "the galaxy still bears the scars of the horde...but they will learn to fear the lance".

I've been away from Mass Effect for a while now, but this is it.

So to expand on this quote, Okeer's genius was only in creating an elite individual, and only from a genetic / physical stand point.

Fortunately Shepard arrives on the scene to take Grunt away and teach him in ways Okeer was not capable of.

I remember Okeer had tried to imprint Grunt with old hatreds when he was in the Tank, which failed, and Grunt was able to mentally develop without having to bother with much of that baggage. Although he did have those ideas and memories, they were not his, and Grunt seemed to use them like we would a history book or encyclopedia not as his own loyalties and beliefs.

If you speak with Grunt on the Normandy through the game to his Loyalty mission, and after, we learn that he was able to come to his own conclusions and form his own opinions on various matters, something that might have been impossible or had put him at odds with Okeer.

I hope I make sense here.