706 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Liara survives a bombing in LotSB because she wasn't killed by the bomb. There's really nothing more to it.

She survived a situation where she should have died because of a plot contrivance and with no injuries, or even a scratch.  Does plot armor get any clearer?

[Mr.House]

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Wow, so much hatred for a bunch of pixels.

No hate at all, I just think she's unnecessary in ME3. She should've been optional and have had far less plot armor.

Saying a character who was in the last two games should be cut in the last because you don't like them is hatred.

No, it's bias and I admit that. Still, that doesn't change the fact, that Liara was forced onto the player and is essentially immortal(beam run aside).

Liara is not the only other character forced onto the player throughout all games.

Garrus can be killed, Tali can be killed, Ash&Kai can be killed, Miri can be killed. All of them in multiple different ways.

Being killed and being forced are not the same, more so when them being killed only happens very late in-game. Forced=you have no choice but to accept it. Tali and Liara are forced onto oyu in ME, Garrus, Mordin, Jack, Miranda and jacob are forced onto you in ME2, Liara, Vega, EDI and if they survived ME2 GArrus and Tali are also forced on oyu. Yes tehy can die, but you should still have an option to keep them with their people(which orignly you where going to be allowed to do but Bioware deicded to force them on you)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Exactly. Versus no matter what you do, Liara is your friend. You aren't capable of being mean to her or treating her like crap. You aren't able to dictate your relationship with her. Everyone else is different, except her. And she's arguably the one person who I want to do it to most.

That's a blatant lie.

How is it a blatant lie? Did I leave out one or two characters? Sorry. I should say squadmates then.

Garrus.

I can still kill him in ME2 you know...

I have to be nice to Liara through all 3 games, and I have to have her live. The only time I can't let her live, I pretty much damn the galaxy.

You don't have to be nice to Liara at all in ME1. Also yes oyu can kil lhim off in ME2, at teh very end. He is still a forced companion no matter what and guess what? Not everyone kills a character because they don't like them, more so when teh character is in fact better in the next game. Who wuodl have thought.

You're making an existential fallacy here. 'Not everyone kills him off in their game because they don't like him, because he is better in the next game'. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue with by that statement, By the nature of being able to kill him off at the end of ME2, he is not a forced squadmate, since you do not have to have him in your game to progress the story at every point.

Plus, you don't have to recruit him in ME1. 

[Teddie Sage]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You realize that none of this disproves anything I said? Yes, having the Shadow Broker on your side could be useful, but that's never shown in the game in any meaningful way, and thus is a subplot that leads completely nowhere.

Well, LotSB happens around the end of ME2 or somewhere else. The thing is, Liara doesn't die in ME1 and ME2. They had to use some variables for ME3, so if Liara wasn't the Shadow Broker, then she was just a normal broker using some kind of database for Shepard or whatever. If she was able to die in the two first games, someone else would've filled the spot.

I think BioWare wanted someone alive to fill a spot in the squad mates whenever Shepard leaves on missions. So Liara being alive and EDI being an optional squadmade along with James would give players at least three squadmates with Javik available.

If Tali and Garrus wouldn't survive the two other games along with Liara, Shepard would be limited and then they would've been forced to recycle some ME2 characters, which wasn't in their original plans. They wanted to tell the story a different way. I don't know how they planned things out, but it seems Liara was meant to be at least there to fill a spot, in case Tali or Garrus didn't survive the Suicide Mission.

Anyways... The Shadow Broker DLC is just a variable in the third game, like any other DLCs. they don't really impact on the ending of the third game but they at least add more lines and more perspective for different Shepards. If Liara wasn't there, someone else would take her place, but since she had access to a lot of data, with her help they were able to build the Crucible.

If she wasn't alive, then Cerberus would've found the data anyways and things would've gone worse for the Alliance and the other characters fighting against the Reapers. The Illusive Man in the end would've assembled the Crucible and use it to Control the Reapers -- worst case scenario. Though it seems only Shepard was able to get summoned by the Catalyst... Sooo... Yeah. I see your point about Liara being expendable, though I still consider her important for the database and the support she gives to your character and your squadmates.

[Steelcan]

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Mr.House, you can treat he poorly, but she acts like you two are planning a wedding. She doesn't get the message, ever.

In the next game yes, but not in the same game. Case to the point, you can treat Garrus, Tali and Liara liek garbage in ME, yet in ME2 they treat oyu like a good friend. You can do teh samething in ME2 and then in ME3 they still treat you like friends, the only diffrence is screwing over Tali in ME3 does in fact do something, yes with Garrus and Liara oyu are in a force friendship, but it's no diffrent with other characters.

.  The forced buddy issue with Garrus is also a complaint I will admit.  But you still do get options to not recruit him in ME1 or kill him in ME2.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Liara survives a bombing in LotSB because she wasn't killed by the bomb. There's really nothing more to it.

She survived a situation where she should have died because of a plot contrivance and with no injuries, or even a scratch.  Does plot armor get any clearer?

That's very stupid. You have no idea at all what circumstances allowed her to survive. Shepard comes across a guy in the lobby that wasn't killed until he was shot, and he didn't have shields and armor.

[SlottsMachine]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

I chose Mordin.

He doesn't count. Otherwise everyone would choose him. 

[spirosz]

I'm loving where this thread has headed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Wow, so much hatred for a bunch of pixels.

No hate at all, I just think she's unnecessary in ME3. She should've been optional and have had far less plot armor.

Saying a character who was in the last two games should be cut in the last because you don't like them is hatred.

No, it's bias and I admit that. Still, that doesn't change the fact, that Liara was forced onto the player and is essentially immortal(beam run aside).

Liara is not the only other character forced onto the player throughout all games.

Garrus can be killed, Tali can be killed, Ash&Kai can be killed, Miri can be killed. All of them in multiple different ways.

Being killed and being forced are not the same, more so when them being killed only happens very late in-game. Forced=you have no choice but to accept it. Tali and Liara are forced onto oyu in ME, Garrus, Mordin, Jack, Miranda and jacob are forced onto you in ME2, Liara, Vega, EDI and if they survived ME2 GArrus and Tali are also forced on oyu. Yes tehy can die, but you should still have an option to keep them with their people(which orignly you where going to be allowed to do but Bioware deicded to force them on you)

Then I think we're arguing from a different perspective on 'forced' here. 

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Exactly. Versus no matter what you do, Liara is your friend. You aren't capable of being mean to her or treating her like crap. You aren't able to dictate your relationship with her. Everyone else is different, except her. And she's arguably the one person who I want to do it to most.

That's a blatant lie.

How is it a blatant lie? Did I leave out one or two characters? Sorry. I should say squadmates then.

Garrus.

I can still kill him in ME2 you know...

I have to be nice to Liara through all 3 games, and I have to have her live. The only time I can't let her live, I pretty much damn the galaxy.

You don't have to be nice to Liara at all in ME1. Also yes oyu can kil lhim off in ME2, at teh very end. He is still a forced companion no matter what and guess what? Not everyone kills a character because they don't like them, more so when teh character is in fact better in the next game. Who wuodl have thought.

You're making an existential fallacy here. 'Not everyone kills him off in their game because they don't like him, because he is better in the next game'. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue with by that statement, By the nature of being able to kill him off at the end of ME2, he is not a forced squadmate, since you do not have to have him in your game to progress the story at every point.

Plus, you don't have to recruit him in ME1. 

He is a forced squadmate in ME2 and in ME you need Garrus or Wrex, you have no choice. You must pick one. That is forced. Liara can also die, if dying makes a character not forced then by your example, Liara is also not a forced squadmate because she can die, it does not matter how it happens. You are cherry picking now.

[CronoDragoon]

As far as "necessary" credentials go, I'd say Liara has contributed far more to the Mass Effect story than any other squadmate. Without her you don't interpret the visions in ME1, she recovered Shepard's body in ME2, and she recovered the Crucible plans in ME3. She's about as important to the plot as ME squadmates come. EDI is pretty important too, I guess, considering her relevance to the organic/synthetic theme, and poor Miranda has contributed a fair bit and doesn't even have squadmate status in ME3 to show for it.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 juillet 2013 - 10:48 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

David7204 wrote...

Liara survives a bombing in LotSB because she wasn't killed by the bomb. There's really nothing more to it.

All you're saying is: she survives because she survives/she wasn't killed because she wasn't killed.

You're begging the question: why did she have to survive? Why not kill her off in this episode?

And the answer is: plot armor. She survives because ensuing developments demand it.

[David7204]

That's moronic. By that definition, the existence of every character in every story is plot armor.

By that logic, why is every sentence of every book not 'Character X fell over and died?' Why did they have to survive? It must be plot armor!

Why does every character survive at all? Why does anyone survive to the next page? The next sentence?

Modifié par David7204, 21 juillet 2013 - 10:50 .

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Liara survives a bombing in LotSB because she wasn't killed by the bomb. There's really nothing more to it.

She survived a situation where she should have died because of a plot contrivance and with no injuries, or even a scratch.  Does plot armor get any clearer?

That's very stupid. You have no idea at all what circumstances allowed her to survive. Shepard comes across a guy in the lobby that wasn't killed until he was shot, and he didn't have shields and armor.

I think you would have a better understanding of plot armor if you played Dragon Age: Orgins.

[CronoDragoon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And the answer is: plot armor. She survives because ensuing developments demand it.

This plot armor is unique to Liara how? Or are you just pointing out that all characters have plot armor until they don't?

[AresKeith]

General Slotts wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Lets get back to other pressing matters, David go play DA:O

Yes, this is more important 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Liara survives a bombing in LotSB because she wasn't killed by the bomb. There's really nothing more to it.

She survived a situation where she should have died because of a plot contrivance and with no injuries, or even a scratch.  Does plot armor get any clearer?

That's very stupid. You have no idea at all what circumstances allowed her to survive. Shepard comes across a guy in the lobby that wasn't killed until he was shot, and he didn't have shields and armor.

.  He also wasnt on the same level as a militrlary grade bomb.  I know ezactly what circumstances allowed her to survive, BioWate's boner for asari.

[DeinonSlayer]

Necanor wrote...

Garrus can be killed, Tali can be killed, Ash&Kai can be killed, Miri can be killed. All of them in multiple different ways.

James, Javik, and Liara are the only ones who can't. The fact that Liara is a romance interest (a fact of which we are consistently reminded - can you name anyone else Shepard hugs automatically?), and walks through all three games (whereas you can kill off all of the other 15 in the first two) is what draws this kind of attention to her, and not so much to James and Javik.

I, personally, don't have a problem with her in-game. I think she's inconsistently written, gets undue focus, and for RP's sake it'd be nice if we could have an antagonistic relationship with her like everyone else, and while I can appreciate others' desire for her to be in the same boat as everyone else (ie: killable), I can't say I'd actually do it if I had the opportunity. A better out would be to redesignate her as a war asset (Shadow Broker, 5 points :innocent:) - we can already do this with the VS, and in fairness, I can appreciate some peoples' desire to do the same with Tali, even if it's something I'd never do.

Fun fact: the original Thessia draft, if I recall, ended with the temple floor collapsing, and Shepard having to choose to save either Liara or the other squadmate you brought with you. If nothing else, making her vulnerable to dying (outside of low-EMS endings) would have done a lot to rescind the accusations of favoritism.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 21 juillet 2013 - 10:53 .

[David7204]

Liara does not have any kind of plot armor. These complaints are ridiculous. There's no evidence at all proving Liara was in a position of certain death.

Modifié par David7204, 21 juillet 2013 - 10:51 .

[Barquiel]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Exactly. Versus no matter what you do, Liara is your friend. You aren't capable of being mean to her or treating her like crap. You aren't able to dictate your relationship with her. Everyone else is different, except her. And she's arguably the one person who I want to do it to most.

That's a blatant lie.

How is it a blatant lie? Did I leave out one or two characters? Sorry. I should say squadmates then.

You aren't capable of being mean to Garrus (or Joker in ME2 for example) or treating him like crap. And claiming that you aren't able to dictate your relationship with her is also wrong. As far as I know Liara is the only character whose goodbye scene in London changes depending on how you have treated her during the game.

[SlottsMachine]

How come whenever the Liara plot armor discussion happens nobody ever brings up the fact that she was written out of ME2 for no real reason, just to avoid this big suicide mission taking place.

[Straw Nihilist]

David7204 wrote...

Liara does not have any kind of plot armor.

Quote of the day tbh. I'm making this my sig'.

[Mr.House]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Garrus can be killed, Tali can be killed, Ash&Kai can be killed, Miri can be killed. All of them in multiple different ways.

James, Javik, and Liara are the only ones who can't. The fact that Liara is a romance interest (a fact of which we are consistently reminded - can you name anyone else Shepard hugs automatically?), and walks through all three games (whereas you can kill off all of the other 15 in the first two) is what draws this kind of attention to her, and not so much to James and Javik.

I, personally, don't have a problem with her in-game. I think she's inconsistently written, gets undue focus, and for RP's sake it'd be nice if we could have an antagonistic relationship with her like everyone else, and while I can appreciate others' desire for her to be in the same boat as everyone else (ie: killable), I can't say I'd actually do it if I had the opportunity. A better out would be to redesignate her as a war asset (Shadow Broker, 5 points :innocent:) - we can already do this with the VS, and in fairness, I can appreciate some peoples' desire to do the same with Tali, even if it's something I'd never do.

Fun fact: the original Thessia draft, if I recall, ended with the temple floor collapsing, and Shepard having to choose to save either Liara or the other squadmate you brought with you.

No... The choice was VS who betrayed you or Liara, not a random squadmate. It was cut because there was massive backlash to how the VS was treated.